Cunego's naturally elevated hematocrit

Shayana Kadidal said:

Finally, I've read that high testosterone levels raise hematocrit --
any idea if the naturally elevated h'crit population corresponds to
the naturally elevated testosterone population?

Do you have a reference for this?

"Shayana Kadidal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Velonews reports that Cunego has a naturally elevated hematocrit --
presumably that means over 50% or close enough such that the 50% rule
would create false positives if applied to him. In any event, they
state he's allowed to race over 50%.

So, a few questions:

Anyone have any idea how they determine that someone has a naturally
elevated hematocrit? (Historical test results back to your teens?
Extended tests over the course of a year?)

How high does your natural level have to be before they'll exempt you
from the 50% rule? (47%? 49%? over 50?)

Finally, I've read that high testosterone levels raise hematocrit --
any idea if the naturally elevated h'crit population corresponds to
the naturally elevated testosterone population?

Surprisingly, I couldn't find answers in the archives. Would have
thought these issues would have been thoroughly threshed out in
1999.--Shayana Kadidal

Take a look here, this was a huge story in British cycling. Maybe theres
some more info in the procycling archieves
http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/5304.0.html

Charley's father was also tested and found to have a naturally high level.
This case was well documented in the British cycling press.

Jan

"Shayana Kadidal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Velonews reports that Cunego has a naturally elevated hematocrit --
presumably that means over 50% or close enough such that the 50% rule
would create false positives if applied to him. In any event, they
state he's allowed to race over 50%.

So, a few questions:

Anyone have any idea how they determine that someone has a naturally
elevated hematocrit? (Historical test results back to your teens?
Extended tests over the course of a year?)

If you keep failing or pushing the limit on haematocrit tests, but pass EPO
tests, they'll probably take a look at your close family's haematocrit.

It seems to be genetic; if one or both of your parents, who presumably have
no reason to want an elevated haematocrit, nevertheless have one, then it
strongly suggests that your haematocrit is where it is because of your
parents not your 'supplements'.

Since 'normal' is 40-ish percent, you'd expect to find some people whose
genetics are such that they naturally sit close to 50%; you'd also expect to
find some people who naturally sit near 30%. However sport in general will
tend to select for the former and against the latter; not that haematocrit
is the only thing that matters.

Peter

"Shayana Kadidal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Anyone have any idea how they determine that someone has a naturally
elevated hematocrit? (Historical test results back to your teens?
Extended tests over the course of a year?)

Extended tests with no other indications of tampering are sufficient
medically, but it also helps if your immediate family also shows elevated
hematocrit. You can get a 'pass' for hamatocrits from 50-54% but I don't
believe that you are allowed to race if you are above that.

Quoted message said:

Finally, I've read that high testosterone levels raise hematocrit --
any idea if the naturally elevated h'crit population corresponds to
the naturally elevated testosterone population?

That's a new one on me. High testosterone doesn't relate closely to high
hematocrit as far as I know.

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Shayana Kadidal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Velonews reports that Cunego has a naturally elevated hematocrit --
presumably that means over 50% or close enough such that the 50% rule
would create false positives if applied to him. In any event, they
state he's allowed to race over 50%.

So, a few questions:

Anyone have any idea how they determine that someone has a naturally
elevated hematocrit? (Historical test results back to your teens?
Extended tests over the course of a year?)

How high does your natural level have to be before they'll exempt you
from the 50% rule? (47%? 49%? over 50?)

Finally, I've read that high testosterone levels raise hematocrit --
any idea if the naturally elevated h'crit population corresponds to
the naturally elevated testosterone population?

Surprisingly, I couldn't find answers in the archives. Would have
thought these issues would have been thoroughly threshed out in
1999.--Shayana Kadidal

Take a look here, this was a huge story in British cycling. Maybe theres
some more info in the procycling archieves
http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/5304.0.html

Charley's father was also tested and found to have a naturally high level.
This case was well documented in the British cycling press

..
Cunego and his father have both a natural level of 52-53 %. So he is indeed
allowed to ride over 50 %. It doesn't seem fair. Isn't it possible to invent
some product to rise the hematocrit level so his rivals could at least
compete at equal terms?

Benjo Maso

benjo maso said:

Cunego and his father have both a natural level of 52-53 %. So he is indeed
allowed to ride over 50 %. It doesn't seem fair. Isn't it possible to invent
some product to rise the hematocrit level so his rivals could at least
compete at equal terms?

Jacques Anquetil had a novel solution to expanding the gene pool to take
care of this competition problem.

"Shayana Kadidal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Velonews reports that Cunego has a naturally elevated hematocrit --
presumably that means over 50% or close enough such that the 50% rule
would create false positives if applied to him. In any event, they
state he's allowed to race over 50%.

So, a few questions:

Anyone have any idea how they determine that someone has a naturally
elevated hematocrit? (Historical test results back to your teens?
Extended tests over the course of a year?)

How high does your natural level have to be before they'll exempt you
from the 50% rule? (47%? 49%? over 50?)

Finally, I've read that high testosterone levels raise hematocrit --
any idea if the naturally elevated h'crit population corresponds to
the naturally elevated testosterone population?

Surprisingly, I couldn't find answers in the archives. Would have
thought these issues would have been thoroughly threshed out in
1999.--Shayana Kadidal

The answer as to the procedure is located on the UCI website although it
takes some searching. In short, a person needs to have 4 blood tests
(specific parameters) over the course of 6 weeks. The results must include
a urine specific gravity. In addition, a hematologist must certify the
results and write a letter stating that the person is otherwise healthy and
that the high HCT is naturally occurring. The UCI then sets a level for
that person that cannot be exceeded. For example, a person with a high
hematocrit of 52 might have his level set at 53. One can then not exceed
his specific limit.

Here is the
link..http://www.uci.ch/english/health_sante/docs_2003/UCI_certificate_2003.
pdf

"Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shayana Kadidal said:

Finally, I've read that high testosterone levels raise hematocrit --
any idea if the naturally elevated h'crit population corresponds to
the naturally elevated testosterone population?

Do you have a reference for this?

Testosterone is involved in the production of RBC so a link is possible.

"Peter Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Shayana Kadidal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Velonews reports that Cunego has a naturally elevated hematocrit --
presumably that means over 50% or close enough such that the 50% rule
would create false positives if applied to him. In any event, they
state he's allowed to race over 50%.

So, a few questions:

Anyone have any idea how they determine that someone has a naturally
elevated hematocrit? (Historical test results back to your teens?
Extended tests over the course of a year?)

If you keep failing or pushing the limit on haematocrit tests, but pass

EPO

Quoted message said:

tests, they'll probably take a look at your close family's haematocrit.

It seems to be genetic; if one or both of your parents, who presumably

have

Quoted message said:

no reason to want an elevated haematocrit, nevertheless have one, then it
strongly suggests that your haematocrit is where it is because of your
parents not your 'supplements'.

Since 'normal' is 40-ish percent, you'd expect to find some people whose
genetics are such that they naturally sit close to 50%; you'd also expect

to

Quoted message said:

find some people who naturally sit near 30%. However sport in general will
tend to select for the former and against the latter; not that haematocrit
is the only thing that matters.

Peter

Endurance training however tends to expand plasma volume far greater than
the increase in RBC so hematocrit actually can be (and often is) lower in an
endurance athlete. Seems backwards on the face of it.

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

benjo maso said:

Cunego and his father have both a natural level of 52-53 %. So he is

indeed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

allowed to ride over 50 %. It doesn't seem fair. Isn't it possible to

invent

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

some product to rise the hematocrit level so his rivals could at least
compete at equal terms?

Jacques Anquetil had a novel solution to expanding the gene pool to take
care of this competition problem.

An interesting solution, but rather inefficient. Only one son! He should
have thought of the gynaecologist in Milan Kundera's "The Farewell Party"
who inseminated all of his patients with hin own sperm, hoping to have found
a way that all men would become brothers...

Benjo Maso

benjo maso said:

Cunego and his father have both a natural level of 52-53 %. So he is
indeed allowed to ride over 50 %. It doesn't seem fair. Isn't it
possible to invent some product to rise the hematocrit level so his
rivals could at least compete at equal terms?

I think there is a product on the market for this. It's called EPO or
something like that. Yes it would definitely even out the score a bit.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shayana Kadidal said:

Finally, I've read that high testosterone levels raise hematocrit --
any idea if the naturally elevated h'crit population corresponds to
the naturally elevated testosterone population?

Do you have a reference for this?

Testosterone is involved in the production of RBC so a link is possible.

A medline search using "testosterone rbc production" pulled up articles
stating that testosterone affects erythroid glucose metabolism (no stated
effect on proliferation or iron level), and a separate article suggests that
test supplementation seems to have a slight effect on iron uptake in female
rats only. An earlier search using "testosterone hematocrit" and
"testosterone erythropoesis" gave nothing either. So now I'll have to ask
you for references as well.

The place I had read about the link between testosterone
supplementation and high h'crit was on an impotence message board
(which came up on a search, I wasn't browsing!), where they were
discussing a poster's statement that he had tested at >50% h'crit
after taking testosterone (presumably to treat the impotence). And
another poster said that was not uncommon. (Not much of a "reference,"
I know.)

Don't men have higher h'crit than women, across the board?--Shayana
Kadidal

Quoted message said:

That's a new one on me. High testosterone doesn't relate closely to high
hematocrit as far as I know.

"Shayana Kadidal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Don't men have higher h'crit than women, across the board?--Shayana

According to Williams Hematology the normal range of men and women is:

Men: 42-50% with a mean of 46% (mine is usually 48%)
Women: 36-45% with a mean of 40%

Women also have a higher percentage of body fat and muscle tissue that
generates slightly less power. There is no way that women can generate the
sort of power it takes to race with men of the same weight.

Quoted message said:

From: "Tom Kunich" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Men: 42-50% with a mean of 46% (mine is usually 48%)
Women: 36-45% with a mean of 40%

Women also have a higher percentage of body fat and muscle tissue that
generates slightly less power. There is no way that women can generate the
sort of power it takes to race with men of the same weight.

Tom!
How dare you cite science that contradicts the PC law that everyone is equal!
Don't you know that Danny Devito, Arnold, Bev Francis, Sergio Oliva, and Lance
all should have the same results no matter what the sport is? If not, someone
has to file a discrimination, or hate crime lawsuit.
Bill C

TritonRider said:

Tom!
How dare you cite science that contradicts the PC law that everyone is
equal! Don't you know that Danny Devito, Arnold, Bev Francis, Sergio
Oliva, and Lance all should have the same results no matter what the
sport is? If not, someone has to file a discrimination, or hate crime
lawsuit. Bill C

Taking lessons from the President, have you?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4757-2004May31.html

TritonRider said:

Tom!
How dare you cite science that contradicts the PC law that everyone is equal!

You're tilting at straw men (sorry to mix only two metaphors; I couldn't
think of a third).

Kyle Legate said:

A medline search using "testosterone rbc production" pulled up articles
stating that testosterone affects erythroid glucose metabolism (no
stated effect on proliferation or iron level), and a separate article
suggests that test supplementation seems to have a slight effect on iron
uptake in female rats only. An earlier search using "testosterone
hematocrit" and "testosterone erythropoesis" gave nothing either. So now
I'll have to ask you for references as well.

Steroidal hormones can increase the total blood volume, which is
independent of hematocrit (rbc concentration), although the overall
effect may be similar (more rbcs = more O2).

--

Jan said:

Take a look here, this was a huge story in British cycling. Maybe
theres some more info in the procycling archieves http://www.velonews.-
com/race/int/articles/5304.0.htmlhttp://www.velonews.com/race/int/arti-
cles/5304.0.html

In this case, the high hematocrit is almost certainly due to the
rider's removed spleen. The spleen removes rbcs from the blood, so it
seems logical.

--