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Cycle computer vs GPS

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9 February 2006
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19 February 2006
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steveyo
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  1. So as not to hijack the Loas threads, I'll start a new one. I'd been
    thinking of getting some sort of cycle-computer, but then I saw
    Nathan's graphs from his Forerunner GPS which have speed, heartrate and
    altitude. Whoa!

    Does it measure speed accurately? Because, holy cow, it would be cool
    to see all the data that Forerunner hacks up when you finish a ride!
    Why bother with a cycle-computer at all?

    Cycle-gadgets are cheaper, right? And I suppose if one prefers the
    device on the machine rather than the wrist.

    Please discuss.

    --
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    steveyo

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  2. Hello Stevyo,
    I have the Garmin Foretrex 201 which I'm happy with. I chose the
    Foretrex because it has WAAS which is more accurate than the forunner.
    It often say's 19 feet accuracy. I think elevation is less accurate on
    these devices, but I don't how what the elevation accuracy is.

    It's handy on your wrist, you can check the display and change the
    settings easily.

    There is a lot of function to these devices that I haven't used.

    I wish I always wore it. 2 weeks ago, I wondered from the park into a
    neighborhood, got turned around and came out 5 miles from the park. It
    was 38 degrees F and I had not worn a coat, just a T-shirt and jeans. I
    had left the unit in the car. I was freezing. I'm sure I could have
    back-tracked on the map to find my way back if I had it.

    The computer interface isn't documented well, you'll need to track that
    down. I got the interface to work once, but the trial software I used
    expired and I didn't want to spend the cost $50. Maybe someone will
    recommend a good cheap, or free program.

    I'm no expert on this device.

    Amazon had the best price I could find.

    --
    Chrashing

    Regards,___________If the sun is shinning I want to be riding.
    Ken
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  3. I just noticed, 'Garmin has introduced the next generation 205 an 305
    units.' (http://tinyurl.com/afta7)

    --
    Chrashing

    Regards,___________If the sun is shinning I want to be riding.
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  4. The new GPS units that include heart rate monitoring and other fitness
    features are cool. Something like that is going to be on my want list
    sometime soon.

    But GPS does have limitations. It will only give you decent accuracy
    for speed and distance when it can get good reception. At times it
    will not be able to get any reception at all which means that it is
    only guessing or not displaying speed or distance at all while it is
    out of reception.

    Things that affect reception and accuracy are satellite geometry in the
    sky (which is of course constantly changing), buildings nearby
    (reception in a downtown area with skyscrapers will be more difficult
    than in areas with lower buildings or no buildings at all), trees
    overhead, how many leaves are on the trees, how much rain is on those
    leaves, fog, rain, snow, how the GPS antenna is oriented, you body can
    even block the signal. Putting your hand over the antenna can be
    enough to block the signal. So there is lots that can affect accuracy
    and even whether or not you'll be able to get a lock on the
    satellites.

    If you're really interested in instantaneous speed readings and
    accurate speed readings then a traditional cycle computer that has a
    magnet on the wheel will give better results.

    If you're looking at GPS units now it is better to go with one of the
    new models that includes the newer and more sensitive GPS chips. They
    have better signal reception and better battery life. For Garmin units
    that new chip technology is by SiRF. Here's 'Garmin's Press Release
    about the SiRF chip'
    (http://www.garmin.com/pressroom/corporate/083005.html). You'll have
    to dig around to find out which of the newer Garmin units are using
    that chip.

    For accuracy the number that the GPS units report as accuracy (like say
    20 feet of accuracy) is just a guess based on satellite geometry in the
    sky and not anything to go by. The actual accuracy could be very
    different. Again, that number is just a guess and not something that
    you should go by.

    GPS units don't always do a good job by themselves for altitude or
    elevation info. Their first priority is to get the 2D location right.
    The 3D info (elevation) is secondary. 2D location is going to be more
    accurate than the elevation. So if the unit says you've got 52 feet of
    accuracy you can figure that the elevation accuracy is going to be
    worse than 52 feet. 2D location requires a lock on at least 3
    satellites. 3D location requires a lock on at least 4 satellites. If
    you want more accurate elevation readings you should get a unit that
    includes a barometric altimeter that supplements the GPS calculated
    elevation readings. The barometric altimeter will continue to get
    readings even if there are no satellites in view and its accuracy is
    also better.

    Garmin has a good description of 'GPS technology'
    (http://www.garmin.com/aboutGPS/).

    WAAS is nice but it is not guaranteed to always make the GPS reading
    more accurate. At times it can actually decrease the real (as opposed
    to the reported) accuracy. WAAS will only improve the accuracy if the
    WAAS satellite is in view. The WAAS satellite sits low on the horizon
    so it can be easily blocked by trees, buildings, cliffs, etc. If
    you're in an area where you are not likely to be able to pick up the
    WAAS satellite it is best to turn that feature off. Out in the ocean
    or up in a plane the WAAS works great because it is easy to see the
    satellite. In the woods or in the urban jungle, WAAS is less useful.

    Knowing what is going on with GPS and how to use it correctly quickly
    gets in to technical matters. To use it correctly you need to know how
    it works along with where and when it will or will not work.

    I have an old Garmin Vista. It frequently loses satellite lock due to
    tree cover when I go on muni rides. It also loses the satellites at
    times when I go on Coker rides. It uses the older and less sensitive
    GPS chip. The new SiRF chip should do better, but I haven't used a GPS
    with that new chip yet to compare.

    --
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  5. The "Edge" is supposed to be the sh t for bicycling, from Garmin. It's
    new.

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  6. Thanks Ken, JC, and Mike! I've been reading up on these, and I'm still
    not sure I want one bad enough to part with the $ yet.

    A smaller unit would be my highest priority. When they can get cell
    phone, camera, GPS, altimeter, a tire pump and maybe a good juicer all
    in one unit, down to a wristwatch size, I'm getting it!

    --
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  7. steveyo said:

    Thanks Ken, JC, and Mike! I've been reading up on these, and I'm still
    not sure I want one bad enough to part with the $ yet.

    Yes, they can get expensive. Especially if you get a GPS that supports
    mapping cause then you have to buy the electronic maps to load onto the
    GPS. Then there is the other gadgets that you'll get for the GPS, a
    holster or a pouch, rechargeable batteries, etc.

    Then after you get it you'll discover that GPS software on the computer
    is generally frustrating to use. Most of the programs use a different
    format for exporting and importing data so getting data to and from
    different programs is more difficult than necessary. The UI on most of
    the software programs is poor and frustrating. I generally end up
    swearing and cursing when I have to do manipulation of GPS data on the
    computer. I think most GPS software for the computer is written by
    apes. Even the commercial stuff is lacking.

    --
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  8. Chrashing said:

    Maybe someone will recommend a good cheap, or free program.

    sport tracks. My favorite non-obvious feature is the "export to google
    earth" but it's packed with useful features.

    Quoted message said:


    Amazon had the best price I could find.

    Cabela's price matched the Amazon price. Other retailers might also.

    -mg

    --
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  9. I was tired of breaking cycle computers, so I decided to get a GPS
    instead. I got the Garmin Foretrex 101 (around $130 I think).

    While I don't regret the decision, it has the following issues:

    Since mine doesn't have rechargable batteries, and I only get about
    12-14 hours from a pair of AAA batteries. Cycle computer batteries seem
    to last forever, and you don't have to remember to turn them on or off.

    Doesn't work in heavily tree covered areas or on very overcast days.

    Unreliable top speed!! Since I like to go fast, it's a bummer that the
    top speed reading is really only an estimate.

    Still, its nice having something that's less likely to break since I
    wear it on my wrist, and I love all the extra features.

    --
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  10. mgrant said:

    (re:computer interface pgm)sport tracks. My favorite non-obvious feature
    is the "export to google earth" but it's packed with useful features.

    That is cool.

    mscalisi said:

    I was tired of breaking cycle computers, so I decided to get a GPS
    instead. I got the Garmin Foretrex 101 (around $130 I think).

    While I don't regret the decision, it has the following issues:

    Since mine doesn't have rechargable batteries, and I only get about
    12-14 hours from a pair of AAA batteries. Cycle computer batteries seem
    to last forever, and you don't have to remember to turn them on or off.

    so yours weighs 2.6 oz and the 201 (rechargable) weighs 2.75 oz.
    Does wearing that weight on your wrist get cumbersome? Can you switch
    wrists?

    mscalisi said:


    Doesn't work in heavily tree covered areas or on very overcast days.

    Unreliable top speed!! Since I like to go fast, it's a bummer that the
    top speed reading is really only an estimate.

    Still, its nice having something that's less likely to break since I
    wear it on my wrist, and I love all the extra features.

    It won't work in your pocket, right?

    --
    steveyo

    steveyo

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  11. I hardly even notice it. Its just like wearing a bulky watch. I don't
    see why you couldn't switch wrists, but its a non-issue to me. ...I
    haven't tried it in my pocket, so I can't really say. It would be hard
    to read it that way!!

    steveyo said:


    so yours weighs 2.6 oz and the 201 (rechargable) weighs 2.75 oz.
    Does wearing that weight on your wrist get cumbersome? Can you switch
    wrists?

    It won't work in your pocket, right?

    --
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  12. steveyo said:

    It won't work in your pocket, right?

    A GPS generally doesn't work well when kept in your pocket or even when
    stashed in a pocket of a backpack. The problem is that they don't get
    good reception in your pocket or other pouch. Part of that is because
    the fabric and your body will block part of the signal, the other part
    is because the antenna is usually not oriented optimally when just
    stashed in a pocket.

    The main thing that blocks a GPS signal is water or moisture. Your
    body is made of enough moisture that it can very effectively block the
    signal. Damp fabric can also block the signal. Damp leaves in trees
    can block the signal. Green leaves are also full of moisture. Rain on
    leaves is even worse.

    The other issue is keeping the antenna oriented for optimal receiving
    of the GPS signal from the satellites.

    Most of the small GPS receivers use a patch antenna. A patch antenna
    is about the size of a small postage stamp. It gets the best signal
    when it lays flat, like a piece of paper on a table, with the surface
    area of the antenna exposed to as much sky as possible. If you want
    the best reception with a patch antenna you want to keep the GPS unit
    oriented so that the patch antenna is looking straight up at the sky.
    That generally means that you want the screen of the GPS also looking
    up at the sky cause that is also how the patch antenna is usually
    oriented.

    The other type of antenna is a quad helix. GPS receivers with a quad
    helix antenna often have a nub sticking out that is the antenna. A
    quad helix antenna gets the best reception when it is pointed up at the
    sky like a radio tower. That generally means that the GPS receiver
    should be oriented so it stands up like a skyscraper cause that is
    generally how the quad helix antenna is oriented in the GPS receiver.

    My Vista GPS receiver has a patch antenna. I keep it in a pouch
    strapped to the shoulder strap of my hydration pack. The GPS is on top
    of my shoulder oriented so the patch antenna is looking up at the sky.
    That means that my head is blocking part of the sky so it is not ideal,
    but it is plenty good enough. If I was more fussy or more concerned
    about reception I could put it on top of my helmet so that my head
    wouldn't block part of its view of the sky, but that wouldn't be
    terribly practical. But there are some folks who do mount an external
    antenna on top of their helmet or hat so that they do get better
    reception. And if you are really in a bind and need to get a reading
    you can put the GPS receiver or an external antenna on a long long pole
    and extend the pole up through the tree cover till it gets reception.
    But if you have to resort to that while on a unicycle ride then you've
    got other issues that need to be addressed. 😉

    I'm not sure how those Forerunner units do with being strapped on a
    wrist. That means that they'd be sometimes oriented OK and other times
    oriented badly for best reception. It would seem that their reception
    quality would depend on how you hold your arm most of the time.

    --
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  13. john_childs said:

    If I was more fussy or more concerned
    about reception I could put it on top of my helmet so that my head
    wouldn't block part of its view of the sky, but that wouldn't be
    terribly practical.

    This is what I do with my Garmin Vista. I use the GPS mainly to record
    my track, for later uploading to a PC and then to import into Excel. I
    used to carry the Vista on my belt, but reception improved
    significantly on the helmet, mainly important for leaf-covered areas
    (and seasons) though.

    If I would use the GPS a lot for wayfinding (as opposed to tracking)
    the on-the-helmet position would be less practical, although I still
    can pull the receiver out of the holster, fiddle with it / look at it,
    and put it back, all while riding.

  14. You can't do things like this with a cycle computer...

    +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
    |Filename: cutgate.jpg |
    |Download: http://www.unicyclist.com/attachment/12041 |
    +-------------------------------------------------------------------+

    --
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  15. Or this (this is the main reason why I love my GPS; slowly but surely I
    am turning the UK blue with the places I've been...

    +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
    |Filename: UK Cycling Tracks Jan 2006.png |
    |Download: http://www.unicyclist.com/attachment/12042 |
    +-------------------------------------------------------------------+

    --
    phil

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  16. What system do you have which enables you to do that phil?

    Cathy

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  17. john_childs said:

    Then after you get it you'll discover that GPS software on the computer
    is generally frustrating to use. Most of the programs use a different
    format for exporting and importing data so getting data to and from
    different programs is more difficult than necessary. The UI on most of
    the software programs is poor and frustrating. I generally end up
    swearing and cursing when I have to do manipulation of GPS data on the
    computer. I think most GPS software for the computer is written by
    apes. Even the commercial stuff is lacking.

    Ah, I’m not the only person of that opinion then…but…

    mgrant said:

    sport tracks. My favorite non-obvious feature is the "export to google
    earth" but it's packed with useful features.

    Where has this piece of software been hiding?

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  18. phil said:

    You can't do things like this with a cycle computer...

    My GPS doesn’t leave a blue line behind me while I’m riding – is it an
    optional extra? And is environmentally friendly? 😉

    --
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  19. The first picture is a track loaded into Google Earth; that is the top
    end of the Howden Reservoir in the Peak District with the Cut Gate
    trail heading up over the top.

    The second requires a bit of fiddling; it is a screenshot of the
    program I use to store all the tracks (Fugawi) with the background map
    removed in a paint program and replaced with a picture of the outline
    of the UK. That is from the end of January this year; I have a few of
    them since I first got the GPS and it's quite interesting to see new
    blobs appear and existing ones get larger as I ride in new places...

    Another image that the GPS has made possible is my 'map of the
    Quantocks' (http://www.flippet.org/images/quantocks-tracks.gif) (670k
    gif), with the tracks of every single ride I did there. I still didn't
    find every last trail, but I like to think I came close...

    Phil

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  20. unicus said:

    Where has this piece of software been hiding?

    I don't know. Last time I looked at 'SportTracks'
    (http://www.zonefivesoftware.com/SportTracks/) it was just a log book
    with not many extra features. It fell off my radar since it didn't do
    what I wanted. Now it looks like it does *much* more. I'm going to
    have to take a new look at it.

    The GPS software area has been in desperate need of some innovation.
    MotionBased took off because it does things easily and well. There is
    room for more innovation and even plenty of room for plain old GPS
    software that actually works and has a good UI. I was almost getting
    desperate enough to consider writing a GPS program, but that would be a
    lot of work.

    --
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