Cycle helmets - major study

Kit Wolf said:

Quoted message said:

I've not seen any real evidence of torsional injuries in cyclists.

I'm still not quite sure. What exactly are 'torsional injuries' and how do you spot them?

Twisting injuries to the neck; broken necks or less serious injuries.

As I understand it Russell Pinder has unfortunately suffered such an injury.
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Michael MacClancy said:

Quoted message said:

Many accidents, even probably most accidents, are due to inattention, and I have no reason to
believe that the proportions are unequal between car drivers and cyclists.

Quoted message said:

Show us evidence and we'll be pleased to reconsider.

Evidence of what? That many accidents are caused by inattention? You need evidence of that?
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On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:36:36 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Geraint

Jones) said:

Perhaps that's partly because you don't keep your [censored] sticking out to the front on the end of a
stalk when cycling.

When it comes to that, I don't do that with my head either. It sits several feet from the front of
the bike, comfortably resting against my Ortlieb bike-box.

Guy
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David Damerell said:

Quoted message said:

So, when considering cyclist safety the Government (and the road "safety" establishment) is
conditioned by decades of practice to consider that helmets are a valid safety measure,

Especially since helmets, unlike accident prevention measures, would be paid for by the cyclist,
not the State.

As with seat belts. But in neither case is the fundamental problem addressed, nor is it ever likely
to be at the present rate.

Guy
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David Damerell said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've not seen any real evidence of torsional injuries in cyclists.

Twisting injuries to the neck; broken necks or less serious injuries.

Those are not the dread "torsional injuries" of concern to neurologists; twisting of the neck is not
(to my knowledge) a major source of injury to cyclists.

Guy
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(Chris Malcolm) said:

Don't forget that you've done a great deal of learning about how to stop hitting your head; you
duck just enough to avoid branches; when falling over backwards you pull your head up just enough
to avoid floor impact, etc..

And all of the above is completely invalidated by the simple and obvious fact that, when riding a
bike, you are at a different height and attitude than when you are off the bike.

As I have said elsewhere, arguing about niggling and unproven effects of the small increase in size
/ mass of a helmet merely gives the helmet nazis something to get thier teeth into. Once they have
undermined the suggestion, by whatever means, part of your argument is demolished. Far better to
work on the real issues - preventing the crash from happening in the first place by improving driver
skills and road layout, for example.

Guy
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Paul Smith said:

Quoted message said:

(a) the exercise contributes to greater alertness, (b) you're not isolated form your surroundings
and (c) inattention is a great way to end up dead, thanks to the fact that large numbers of
drivers /are/ in the aforementioned brain-dead inattention state.

Quoted message said:

Speaking as someone who once cycled into a parked car, but has never driven into a parked car I
disbelieve your suggestion.

You are free to believe whatever you like, but this is neither a suggestion nor mine. All three of
the reasons are known documented facts, particularly c.

Quoted message said:

Many accidents, even probably most accidents, are due to inattention, and I have no reason to
believe that the proportions are unequal between car drivers and cyclists.

That would be because you don't cycle :-)

Guy
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Paul Smith said:

Evidence of what? That many accidents are caused by inattention? You need evidence of that?

Depends - could it be evidence of the "speed cameras kill" variety? In which case: I predicted it
therefore it is true :-D

Guy
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you know? said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(a) the exercise contributes to greater alertness, (b) you're not isolated form your surroundings
and (c) inattention is a great way to end up dead, thanks to the fact that large numbers of
drivers /are/ in the aforementioned brain-dead inattention state.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Speaking as someone who once cycled into a parked car, but has never driven into a parked car I
disbelieve your suggestion.

Quoted message said:

You are free to believe whatever you like, but this is neither a suggestion nor mine. All three of
the reasons are known documented facts, particularly c.

a) the exercise itself might lead to distraction and inattention especially if it makes you leg hurt
or something like that.

b) also leads to unknown conclusions; I could equally argue that increased isolation requires more
concentration,

And we don't know whether or not c) applies MORE to drivers than cyclists.

And I could add a d) from my own experience and that would be that the lower speed of cycling is
inherently less demanding of attention so less attention is given.

I see no need to argue the case, and I HAVE NO DATA to back up my position, but I wanted to point
out that your original conclusion about "cyclists concentrating better" would require evidence;
proposed mechanisms are insufficient.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Many accidents, even probably most accidents, are due to inattention, and I have no reason to
believe that the proportions are unequal between car drivers and cyclists.

Quoted message said:

That would be because you don't cycle :-)

Or maybe not. 🙂
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Kit Wolf <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've not seen any real evidence of torsional injuries in cyclists. I really do think it's a red
herring, like the extra height issue. A helmet increases my height on a bike by under 1% -
definitely insignificant.

I'm still not quite sure. What exactly are 'torsional injuries' and how do you spot them? I would
have thought you might expect some brain injuries - akin to shaken baby syndrome. But whether the
medics can tease them apart from other sorts of brain damage, I don't know.

Quoted message said:

A sudden rotation of the head is generally a *more* effective way of causing brain damage than a
direct blow. This is why boxers will favour an uppercut to the chin over a punch between the eyes,
brain damage being the object of the exercise. The difference in damage is probably only
identifiable at a post-mortem, but has the same cause - the brain stays still whilst the skull moves
around it, for long enough to do damage anyway.

This is quite separate from the broken neck issue, which I would agree is sufficiently uncommon to
be of much significance.

Andrew

Paul Smith said:

HAVE NO DATA to back up my position,

No change there, then :-)

Quoted message said:

but I wanted to point out that your original conclusion about "cyclists concentrating better"
would require evidence; proposed mechanisms are insufficient.

It has evidence, the effects described are known physiological facts. And the conclusions are
supported by other facts, such as drivers being responsible for the majority of fatal
car-bike crashes.

You don't ride a bike, do you?

Guy
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"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but I wanted to point out that your original conclusion
about "cyclists concentrating better" would require evidence;

proposed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mechanisms are insufficient.

Quoted message said:

It has evidence, the effects described are known physiological facts.

My experience playing rugby tells me that as soon as I start breathing hard, my mental capacity
diminishes. I'm guessing the brain competes for blood flow with muscles.

Robert Goodman said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but I wanted to point out that your original conclusion about "cyclists concentrating better"
would require evidence; proposed mechanisms are insufficient.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It has evidence, the effects described are known physiological facts.

Quoted message said:

My experience playing rugby tells me that as soon as I start breathing hard, my mental capacity
diminishes. I'm guessing the brain competes for blood flow with muscles.

That's interesting. Perhaps the blood oxygen saturation drops? That would be a very simple
explanation for the effect.
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"Andrew Sweetman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

A sudden rotation of the head is generally a *more* effective way of

causing

Quoted message said:

brain damage than a direct blow. This is why boxers will favour an

uppercut

Quoted message said:

to the chin over a punch between the eyes, brain damage being the

object of

Quoted message said:

the exercise.

Quoted message said:

The difference in damage is probably only identifiable at a

post-mortem, but

Quoted message said:

has the same cause - the brain stays still whilst the skull moves

around it,

Quoted message said:

for long enough to do damage anyway.

Right -- there's more of what's called "contra coup" effect that way. In a straight-on hit, you get
that initial impulse transferred to the brain, and by the time the head stops moving that's going to
be considerably damped, so the brain doesn't hit the opposite side of the skull (contra coup --
opposite the blow) as hard.

Robert

"Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:53:41 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote:

And we don't know whether or not c) applies MORE to drivers than cyclists.

And I could add a d) from my own experience and that would be that the lower speed of cycling is
inherently less demanding of attention so less attention is given.

I see no need to argue the case, and I HAVE NO DATA to back up my position, but I wanted to point
out that your original conclusion about "cyclists concentrating better" would require evidence;
proposed mechanisms are insufficient.

Cyclists find out very quickly that inattention hurts. Drivers found out that inattention hurts
someone else. Darwinism.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Many accidents, even probably most accidents, are due to inattention, and I have no reason to
believe that the proportions are unequal between car drivers and cyclists.

See above.

Quoted message said:

cheers

Rich

Richard Burton said:

Quoted message said:

And we don't know whether or not c) applies MORE to drivers than cyclists.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And I could add a d) from my own experience and that would be that the lower speed of cycling is
inherently less demanding of attention so less attention is given.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I see no need to argue the case, and I HAVE NO DATA to back up my position, but I wanted to point
out that your original conclusion about "cyclists concentrating better" would require evidence;
proposed mechanisms are insufficient.

Quoted message said:

Cyclists find out very quickly that inattention hurts. Drivers found out that inattention hurts
someone else. Darwinism.

Apart from the fact that your proposed mechanism is nonsense, proposed mechanisms are clearly
insufficient. So that's a double zero for you.
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you know? said:

Quoted message said:

HAVE NO DATA to back up my position,

Quoted message said:

No change there, then :-)

Very nice snipping.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but I wanted to point out that your original conclusion about "cyclists concentrating better"
would require evidence; proposed mechanisms are insufficient.

Quoted message said:

It has evidence, the effects described are known physiological facts.

So were the alternative cases I offered.

Quoted message said:

And the conclusions are supported by other facts, such as drivers being responsible for the
majority of fatal car-bike crashes.

I don't even know that that's a fact, but even if it is, it could quite conceivably have more to do
with opportunities for fatal error than proportions of inattention.

Quoted message said:

You don't ride a bike, do you?

Yawn.
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Richard Burton said:

Yes, but mostly by other people! Especially the ones who, in broad daylight, find it difficult to
see someone wearing fluorescent yellow from head to toe.

Its probably that fixation thing - when you stare at something you are trying to miss you tend to
hit it (cue Frasier). Perhaps urban camoflague fatigues would work better for you.

Tony

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Just zis Guy said:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:35:52 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Chris Malcolm) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't forget that you've done a great deal of learning about how to stop hitting your head; you
duck just enough to avoid branches; when falling over backwards you pull your head up just enough
to avoid floor impact, etc..

Quoted message said:

And all of the above is completely invalidated by the simple and obvious fact that, when riding a
bike, you are at a different height and attitude than when you are off the bike.

What, your concern is with hitting you're head while you're actually *on* the bike?

You need more than a bike helmet!

I was talking about what happens in an accident, when get separated from the bike, maybe fly through
the air, and hit the ground or other objects with various parts of your anatomy, while your reflexes
try to ensure that you avoid hitting your head by twisting body, throwing arms out, etc..
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Paul Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but I wanted to point out that your original conclusion
about "cyclists concentrating better" would require evidence;

It has evidence, the effects described are known physiological facts.

So were the alternative cases I offered.

Clearly, then, your use of terms such as "might," "could" and "don't know" needs a little
brushing up.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And the conclusions are supported by other facts, such as drivers being responsible for the
majority of fatal car-bike crashes.

Quoted message said:

I don't even know that that's a fact

It is.

Quoted message said:

but even if it is, it could quite conceivably have more to do with opportunities for fatal error
than proportions of inattention.

Assuming you mean the relative severity of consequences of inattention, that is possible - but that
doesn't mitigate the undoubted fact that very few drivers give uniformly high levels of attention to
their driving, and most drive with one or more sources of distraction running in their car (children
/ radio / phone / whatever). And even during manoeuvres which demand high levels of concentration,
like overtaking on a narrow road, many drivers do not apply the higher level of attention required;
staggering numbers fail even to take the elementary precaution of looking far enough ahead to see if
there is car approaching in the opposite direction. It's as if the sphere of attention extends about
far enough to match, say, the speed of a running human, and not much further.

If you ride a bike like that, you crash fairly soon. If you drive a car like that you become just
another SMIDSY, with cyclists and motorcyclists veering left and right to avoid you as you go your
merry way. Mr Magoo is alive and well and living in a Mondeo near you.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You don't ride a bike, do you?

Yawn.

We'll take that as a "no" then :-)