cycle lane versus cycle path

Sue Rogers said:

I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.

2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
in both directions.

3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
are travelling in both directions.

I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
personal tales of near-mishaps.

It very much depends on the exact implementation and local circumstances
(i.e., shared use track which has so many pedestrians they ignore the line is no use to anybody,
undifferentiated shared track with minor ped traffic and open sightlines is generally no
trouble, cycle lanes marked on the road can be ghastly if they tend to shoehorn cyclists into
poor places, and so on (and on, and on). You can have superb facilities which in terms of dry
description are no different to unsafe shockers.

Not much help, but I'm afraid that's the way it seems to be.

Quoted message said:

Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.

I'd ask the council direct on that one.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

On or about Tue, 24 Jun 2003 at 13:24 GMT, Sue Rogers <[email hidden]> illuminated us with:

Quoted message said:

Hi, I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.

2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
in both directions.

3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
are travelling in both directions.

I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
personal tales of near-mishaps.

Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.

Info needed for work tied in with Safe Routes to School so aimed at secondary school age children.

Newsgroup replies or emails are fine.

This maybe grandmother egg sucking instruction, but have you looked at the Cambridge Cycle Campaign
website? Resources camcycle.org.ukresourcesOpen ↗ and links camcycle.org.uklinksOpen ↗
pages in particular.

--
Mark Please remove nospam | A clear conscience is usually the sign to reply by email. | of a bad
memory. www.ayliffe.org |

Peter Clinch said:

Sue Rogers said:

I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.

2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also
travelling in both directions.

3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
are travelling in both directions.

I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
personal tales of near-mishaps.

It very much depends on the exact implementation and local circumstances (i.e., shared use track
which has so many pedestrians they ignore the line is no use to anybody, undifferentiated shared
track with minor ped traffic and open sightlines is generally no trouble, cycle lanes marked on
the road can be ghastly if they tend to shoehorn cyclists into poor places, and so on (and on, and
on). You can have superb facilities which in terms of dry description are no different to unsafe
shockers.

Not much help, but I'm afraid that's the way it seems to be.

Quoted message said:

Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.

I'd ask the council direct on that one.

Pete.

id second that, for instance here in hull we have what sounds like a perfect solution. there is a
cycle path that runs next to the road, but is seperated off. it can physically not be driven on by
cars, and since its a step down pedestrians stick to the path. however i avoid it like the plague on
my journey home, and actually prefer to ride on the "more dangerous" road. the reason for this is
because the path is hidden from the road by parked cars. it is designed this way and it means that
drives on the road cannot see you, or you see them as they turn in for side streets. also drivers
coming out of the side streets assume that the road starts where the parked cars are ( i cant really
blame them since this is true for most circumstances) so they dont really look for you either. so a
apparently ideal set-up (theoretically similar to that in holland) has lead to an accident waiting
to happen.

panda

"Sue Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.

2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
in both directions.

3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
are travelling in both directions.

I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
personal tales of near-mishaps.

Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.

Info needed for work tied in with Safe Routes to School so aimed at secondary school age children.

Newsgroup replies or emails are fine.

Thanks,

Impartial may be a little hopeful though if you search back through this newsgroup you will find
plenty of comments on shared use pavements and cycle lanes.

In general cyclists are safest on the road. That is where they belong and all this fetishism of
local councils to get them off the road is simply making life more difficult and dangerous for
cyclists. Pavements are for pedestrians and toddlers on trikes.

The problem is that road engineers design roads for the motor car and forget about making them
suitable for cyclists -- so they paint a gutter green or declare a pavement 'shared use'.

Probably the best the best thing you can do for secondary age children is traffic calm so that cars
are travelling slowly. Convincing little Johnny's Mum to let him cycle and leave the Chelsea Tractor
in the drive will contribute to little Johnny's safety two fold -- it will make him more independent
and fitter -- and it will remove one more dangerous, badly driven and inappropriate vehicle from the
neighbourhood of the school.

Finally, you have to convince the school to let little Johnny park his bike at school. There is
little point in having safe routes to school if the Head then declares that Johnny must have a
helmet, facemask, gloves, body armour etc -- but that, since there is nowhere to store this stuff,
with regret, facilities must be withdrawn (don't laugh -- some schools have been so b**** awkward.

Schools should be prevailed upon to provide proper, adequate training to the kids, sufficient,
secure bike storage (hell -- didn't we all learn some very valuable lessons behind the bike sheds!!)
and leave other issues (helmets etc) to the parents.

When the engineers start to plan the system ask them 1. what the breakdown of journeys is now and 2.
what they plan it should be post the work -- bet they can't tell you.

T

Sue Rogers <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi, I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.

2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
in both directions.

3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
are travelling in both directions.

I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
personal tales of near-mishaps.

Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.

Quoted message said:

Hi Have you looked at www.lesberries.co.uk/cycling/cycling.html.

John Franklins site. cheers Iain

Sue Rogers said:

I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.
2. Cycle paths [shared]
3. Cycle paths [separated]

I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
personal tales of near-mishaps.

You don't say what aspect of cycle infrastructure you're looking at. Safety? Cost?
Effectiveness? Usage?

If you're looking at safety, there's a bibliography of research at
<http://www.lesberries.co.uk/cycling/infra/research.html>.

--
Gareth Rees

"Tony W" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Impartial may be a little hopeful

Indeed, I think she may be looking in the wrong place.

Quoted message said:

In general cyclists are safest on the road. That is where they belong and all this fetishism of
local councils to get them off the road

No, that is not what happens. Not round here, anyway. The councils have no desire to stop anyone
cycling on the road if that's what they want to do. This is quite explicit in the documents and
discussions, and is even a point of agreement between officers and councillors.

Quoted message said:

Probably the best the best thing you can do for secondary age children is traffic calm so that
cars are travelling slowly.

Provided that this can be done in such a way that doesn't make things worse for cyclists, ie no
bumps, no build-outs, no pinch points, no 20cm wide cycle "bypasses", ...

--
Tim Ward - posting as an individual unless otherwise clear Brett Ward Ltd - www.brettward.co.uk
Cambridge Accommodation Notice Board - www.brettward.co.uk/canb Cambridge City Councillor

"panda" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

id second that, for instance here in hull we have what sounds like a

perfect

Quoted message said:

solution. there is a cycle path that runs next to the road, but is

seperated

Quoted message said:

off. it can physically not be driven on by cars, and since its a step down pedestrians stick to
the path. however i avoid it like the plague on my journey home, and actually prefer to ride on
the "more dangerous" road.

Which cycle path is it Panda?
--
Simon Mason Anlaby East Yorkshire. 53°44'N 0°26'W simonmason.karoo.netsimonmason.karoo.netOpen ↗

"Sue Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.

2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
in both directions.

3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
are travelling in both directions.

I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
personal tales of near-mishaps.

Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.

Info needed for work tied in with Safe Routes to School so aimed at secondary school age children.

Newsgroup replies or emails are fine.

Thanks,

CTC have reports on this.

Sue Rogers said:

I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

I suggest you subscribe to transport_health at yahoo groups and ask them - Meyer Hillman is a
regular contributor and may well have the Right Answers. They are very helpful.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. chapmancentral.comchapmancentral.comOpen ↗ Advance
notice: ADSL service in process of transfer to a new ISP. Obviously there will be a week of downtime
between the engineer removing the BT service and the same engineer connecting the same equipment on
the same line in the same exchange and billing it to the new ISP.

"Tim Ward" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No, that is not what happens. Not round here, anyway. The councils have no desire to stop anyone
cycling on the road if that's what they want to do. This is quite explicit in the documents and
discussions, and is even a

point

Quoted message said:

of agreement between officers and councillors.

Utopia!!

Cambridge is different.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Probably the best the best thing you can do for secondary age children

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

traffic calm so that cars are travelling slowly.

Provided that this can be done in such a way that doesn't make things

worse

Quoted message said:

for cyclists, ie no bumps, no build-outs, no pinch points, no 20cm wide cycle "bypasses", ...

All very true.

T

panda said:

id second that, for instance here in hull we have what sounds like a perfect solution. there is a
cycle path that runs next to the road, but is seperated off. it can physically not be driven on by
cars, and since its a step down pedestrians stick to the path.

Here in Peterborough we have a road (dual carriageway) with grass divider from the pavement. Then
there is some bushes, then the cycle path. Some people still ride on the pavement. Personally I
prefer the road as the cycle path is a bit rutted and certainly not as good a surface as the road
even if it wasn't.

--
Andy Leighton => [email hidden] "The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep
dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

"Sue Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

Impartial? That's a bit optimistic! But you might like to look at Germany. Many towns there (an
excellent example is Konstanz) have gone down a long investigatory trail with all sorts of
university research projects on these questions and have concluded that "it depends". If you are in
urban different to suburb, different to country etc. But the common factor is that the best solution
overall is to educate/discipline/fine/imprison the cyclists worst enemy - the aggressive car-driver.
Go on holiday to a German cycling town (most but Konstanz is a good example) - you will love it and
learn a huge amount even if you don't speak German.

On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:24:42 +0100 someone who may be Sue Rogers <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

Everybody thinks that they are impartial, but that does not mean that they are.

Quoted message said:

1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.

Can be useful; if they are wide enough, are not obstructed by parked motor vehicles, pass outside
the door zone of motor vehicles parked inside them, do not narrow when they should get wider,
adopt the correct road position at junctions, are regularly swept and many other things. The
important thing is that they are designed by people who understand how to cycle properly, ie not
most road builders.

Quoted message said:

2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
in both directions.

Likely to be highly dangerous for everyone using it.

Quoted message said:

3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is painted
down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians are
travelling in both directions.

Possibly marginally less dangerous than 2.

Quoted message said:

I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
personal tales of near-mishaps.

Follow the references others have given and use something like Google. There are a number of facts
and figures about York, how far they are broken down I have no idea.

You didn't include 4. Cycling on the road in a proper fashion, with cycle facilities provided at the
most dangerous places for cyclists, junctions. Such facilities would include a roundabout removal
programme (there is one in Edinburgh) and Advanced Stop Lines.

Quoted message said:

Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.

Not here. I presume it is the same in Cambridge.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

In article said:

On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:24:42 +0100 someone who may be Sue Rogers <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

Everybody thinks that they are impartial, but that does not mean that they are.

I tend to think I'm partial even when I'm not 🙂

m.
--
\_\/_/| Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish. \ / | eine answeringmachine
fuer letzte frage als selbstschussanlage \/ | stuhl. letztendlich letztmalig ein hecke brennender
buesche ------+ -- Einstuerzende Neubauten, "Sie"

Following on from Sue Rogers's message. . .

Quoted message said:

Hi, I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.

2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
in both directions.

3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is painted
down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians are
travelling in both directions.

I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
personal tales of near-mishaps.

Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.

Info needed for work tied in with Safe Routes to School so aimed at secondary school age children.

Beware of the factual approach. Engineers love it as they can prove anything with bogus figures. To
them a solid white line is an effective separator but as we all that is nonsense.

Cost and engineering preferences may affect what is possible in a practical world. There are, ahem,
'standards' such as LTN 2/86 (Local Transport Note 2/86 from the DoH web site. Engineers may say
things like "Oh we can't possibly do that because there isn't enough room according to "the
standard".

Shared use without lights is a definite no-no. (Shared use is a last resort anyway.)

It may be worth turning SRTS round and looking at perceived and actual danger points. For example
crossing a road, turning right, parked cars, lorry movements or a parade of shops.

Consider time separation - This causes ructions initially but appears to be quite successful.

IMHO making cycling to school dependent on the provision of cycle facilities is likely to scupper
the whole thing and definitely the wrong way to go about it.

So real good practice and an experienced eye for what is important and possible may be more valuable
than 'standards' and statistics[1]. There are probably people here who could visit and help you
assess possibilities and suggest options and action points.

[1] The County Council (Or other Hghway authority) has access to accident data collected by the
police. "Stats20". Ask for a listing of say the last 3 years of cycle/pedestrian accidents and a
map. Although these are only the tip of the iceberg they may point to patterns.

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the deckchair business folded

Witham Cycling Campaign www.eminent.demon.co.uk/wcc.htm East Anglian Pub cycle rides
www.eminent.demon.co.uk/rides

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Sue Rogers said:

Hi, I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

Good luck ;-)

Quoted message said:

1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.

2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
in both directions.

3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
are travelling in both directions.

Too bad no-one is dicsussing my favourite: seperate paths (say, seperated by curbs), like we use in
Denmark. Oh, and where there isn't space for seperate paths, the cycles have to go in the road with
the cars and nowhere near the pedestrians.

Ahh, to be in a country where one can cycle safely :-( :-(

Regards

Jens
- --
Key ID 0x09723C12, [email hidden]/[email hidden] Analogue filtering / 5GHz RLAN / Mdk
Linux / odds and ends imaginet.fr~jenstingOpen ↗ +44 1223 211 585 "Pourqoi ?" "On me paye
pour ca" 'Le Samourai' -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE++Tr2imJs3AlyPBIRAuwRAKCHJTuaqllvLKm34YjTjZGSzmFdPQCfWipA p4RTdNjSQGj8U3FQmlS8cTA= =qyAw
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clarence street , between holderness road and alfred gelder street, east of the bridge

panda

Simon Mason said:

"panda" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

id second that, for instance here in hull we have what sounds like a perfect solution. there is a
cycle path that runs next to the road, but is seperated off. it can physically not be driven on
by cars, and since its a step down pedestrians stick to the path. however i avoid it like the
plague on my journey home, and actually prefer to ride on the "more dangerous" road.

Which cycle path is it Panda?

David Hansen said:

Quoted message said:

3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
are travelling in both directions.

Possibly marginally less dangerous than 2.

Possibly, but unlikely, coz the wretched pedos are incapable of paying any attention to the lines.
There is one like this around part of the Tottenham one-way system, but after a day when I nearly
nowed down a women with a pram, a bloke with his nose buried in "Auto Trader", two coppers and
two-thirds of a bus queue, I came to the conclusion that the road was safer as everyone there was
moving in the same direction and at least doing lip service to the concept of looking where they're
going. And have not used the path since.

Such paths are the Work of Stan and should be utterly cryt doune and nocht usyt.

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
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Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
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