Cyclist killed, driver cited for going too fast

"John" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

The driver was determined to be travelling too fast for conditions
(directly into a setting sun). He was apparently exceeding the speed
limit by at least 20%.

Be careful out there.

One of the things I do is try to avoid riding in any kind of traffic while
heading toward a setting or rising sun. Too paranoid?

Mark

I dont think you can be too paranoid while riding where there is auto traffic.
Sun, reflections, water, whatever... All it takes is one person in their own little world (or on a cell phone) to take you out before you can say "OH [censored] !!"

"Mark Weaver" wrote: One of the things I do is try to avoid riding in any
kind of traffic whileheading toward a setting or rising sun. Too paranoid?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
You're alive, aren't you? That's better than the alternative.

Leo Lichtman said:

"Mark Weaver" wrote: One of the things I do is try to avoid riding in
any
kind of traffic whileheading toward a setting or rising sun. Too
paranoid?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
You're alive, aren't you? That's better than the alternative.

Here I go again. If the sun is directly in front of you then ride
on the wrong side of the road. I do and I just made it past 56.
I had to dive into a ditch this last week because the driver of
a big rig either didn't see me or didn't think I would make a
big enough dent in his truck to get convicted. I know this is
going to [censored] the die hard "Follow the law" people, but I
am still alive even if, in their opinion, a lawbreaker.
Just use common sense.
Bill Baka

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

"Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Leo Lichtman said:

"Mark Weaver" wrote: One of the things I do is try to avoid riding in
any
kind of traffic whileheading toward a setting or rising sun. Too
paranoid?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
You're alive, aren't you? That's better than the alternative.

Here I go again. If the sun is directly in front of you then ride
on the wrong side of the road. I do and I just made it past 56.
I had to dive into a ditch this last week because the driver of
a big rig either didn't see me or didn't think I would make a
big enough dent in his truck to get convicted. I know this is
going to [censored] the die hard "Follow the law" people, but I
am still alive even if, in their opinion, a lawbreaker.
Just use common sense.
Bill Baka

You're right about using common sense. There may be times when riding on
the "wrong" side of the road is appropriate. I don't think advice like "If
the sun is directly in front of you then ride on the wrong side of the road"
is using common sense.

And you get peeved by truckers who don't move over for you when you're on
the wrong side of the road? Never mind common sense, that just doesn't make
any sense.

Ride on, but think,
Don

"Mark Weaver" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

One of the things I do is try to avoid riding in any kind of traffic while
heading toward a setting or rising sun. Too paranoid?

It does add another layer of challenge, for sure; taking the lane becomes
particularly risky.

But my whole riding style is based on the belief that nobody can see me; it
makes little material difference if they're blinded by the sun or distracted
by their cell phone. You've always got to know where you're going to bail
out if you have to, and you never let a car get within striking distance
unless you know where you'll go if he makes a sudden move.

RichC

Quoted message said:

Bill Baka [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Here I go again. If the sun is directly in front of you then ride
on the wrong side of the road. I do and I just made it past 56.
I had to dive into a ditch this last week because the driver of
a big rig either didn't see me or didn't think I would make a
big enough dent in his truck to get convicted. I know this is
going to [censored] the die hard "Follow the law" people, but I
am still alive even if, in their opinion, a lawbreaker.
Just use common sense.
Bill Baka

I ride with traffic. You sometimes ride counter to traffic. I've been riding
for at least as long as you and I've had to "dive" off the road exactly once in
all that time while this is your second "I had to dive into the ditch" post
*this year*.
Take your own advice. Use common sense.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Quoted message said:

I ride with traffic. You sometimes ride counter to traffic. I've been riding
for at least as long as you and I've had to "dive" off the road exactly once
in
all that time while this is your second "I had to dive into the ditch" post
*this year*.
Take your own advice. Use common sense.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

When the sun is low in the sky, and bright, such as this time of the year in my
bit of the UK, and I have to cycle 'into' the sun, I have my rear lights *on* -
and one in a flashing mode. Just helps make me that bit more visible.

Cheers, helen s

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
to get correct one remove fame & fortune
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Rich Clark said:

"Mark Weaver" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

One of the things I do is try to avoid riding in any kind of traffic while
heading toward a setting or rising sun. Too paranoid?

It does add another layer of challenge, for sure; taking the lane becomes
particularly risky.

But my whole riding style is based on the belief that nobody can see me; it
makes little material difference if they're blinded by the sun or distracted
by their cell phone. You've always got to know where you're going to bail
out if you have to, and you never let a car get within striking distance
unless you know where you'll go if he makes a sudden move.

RichC

The first part of my commute home is through midtown Manhattan. A very
interesting place to ride.

[email hidden] (dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

When the sun is low in the sky, and bright, such as this time of the year in my
bit of the UK, and I have to cycle 'into' the sun, I have my rear lights *on* -
and one in a flashing mode. Just helps make me that bit more visible.

Have you actually tested that theory?

I ask because I had it happen recently, while driving, that sun glare
made it pretty much impossible for me to see where I was going. I
slowed down pulled over until conditions changed, which took about 10
minutes.

I was the only car that stopped. Was I the only driver that was
blinded? Maybe. But I doubt it.

Drivers blinded by sun glare assume, I think, that they can still see
something as big as a car in time to avoid hitting it. And they drive
on, blindly. That appears to be what happened in the fatal collision
that inspired this thread. Blinking lights on the bike would not have
saved the victims.

Knowing they were being overtaken by a blinded driver and being
prepared to bail out might have saved them. (Total speculation; I have
no actual knowledge of the circumstances.)

Me, I assume that all drivers are blind at all times, and ride
accordingly.

RichC

RichC said:

Me, I assume that all drivers are blind at all times, and ride
accordingly.

No, you don't. Think about it.

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
Substitute cc dot ysu dot
edu]

"Frank Krygowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

RichC said:

Me, I assume that all drivers are blind at all times, and ride
accordingly.

No, you don't. Think about it.

Allow me a little hyperbole and metaphor, OK? Whether I assume they can't
or don't or won't see me, my behavior based on the assumption is the same. I
don't trust 'em for a second.

RichC

Rich Clark said:

"Frank Krygowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

RichC said:

Me, I assume that all drivers are blind at all times, and ride
accordingly.

No, you don't. Think about it.

Allow me a little hyperbole and metaphor, OK? Whether I assume they can't
or don't or won't see me, my behavior based on the assumption is the same. I
don't trust 'em for a second.

I know it's hyperbole, but I think it can mislead newbies.

There are lots of situations where, if a cylist really thought "they'll
never notice me, no matter what I do," they'd actually ride more
dangerously. One classic case is to squeeze too close to a parked car
door because of fear of drivers coming from behind.

A cyclist who says, instead, "I'm going to _make_ myself visible" is
often riding safer.

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Frank Krygowski <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I know it's hyperbole, but I think it can mislead newbies.

There are lots of situations where, if a cylist really thought "they'll
never notice me, no matter what I do," they'd actually ride more
dangerously. One classic case is to squeeze too close to a parked car
door because of fear of drivers coming from behind.

A cyclist who says, instead, "I'm going to _make_ myself visible" is
often riding safer.

I disagree. There's a big difference between "ride as if you're
invisible" -- the old saw that I agree is potentially deceptive when a
cyclist believes "invisible" means "immaterial" -- and "ride as if the
drivers are blind."

I think the belief that you are visible (even if you're wearing a
reflective triangle, reflective stickers, and multiple blinkies for
nighttime, or neon green and yellow during the day) is what's
dangerous. Taking the lane when sun glare is a problem is dangerous.
Depending on drivers for your safety is dangerous. Whether it's a
16-year old squinting into the sun or a drunk lawyer with a cell
phone, they might as well be blind as far as your safety is concerned.

This doesn't mean riding in fear, or cowering by the side of the road.
It means being assertive and in control, completely alert and
situationally aware. It means not taking risks that assume some
expected behavior from a driver. Even eye contact with a driver can be
deceptive; they are often "looking through you."

Frank, I'd be interested in what you find if you, a very experienced
cyclist, re-analyze your style in light of the "drivers are blind"
principle. You may well have adopted it without really thinking of it
that way. That's what I did.

RichC

Hunrobe said:

Quoted message said:

Bill Baka [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Here I go again. If the sun is directly in front of you then ride
on the wrong side of the road. I do and I just made it past 56.
I had to dive into a ditch this last week because the driver of
a big rig either didn't see me or didn't think I would make a
big enough dent in his truck to get convicted. I know this is
going to [censored] the die hard "Follow the law" people, but I
am still alive even if, in their opinion, a lawbreaker.
Just use common sense.
Bill Baka

I ride with traffic. You sometimes ride counter to traffic. I've been
riding
for at least as long as you and I've had to "dive" off the road exactly
once in
all that time while this is your second "I had to dive into the ditch"
post
*this year*.
Take your own advice. Use common sense.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Bob,
We ride in totally different environments and have different needs.
The need to see a big rig coming, or 4 in a row will make me sometimes
ride on the wrong side. These guys are all at the limit, tailgating
to draft one another and only the first can see me. Semis #2,3, and
sometimes 4 don't see me in time and since some of them are already
over the edge of the shoulder I have to go into the dirt/ditch/weeds.
Much better to [censored] the righteous "The law is the law, period."
types. There is a lot of construction work going on right now and
some of the drivers hired are immigrants who barely qualify to drive
a car much less a big rig. Remember I live in California???
Bill Baka

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

RichC said:

[email hidden] (dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers) wrote in
message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

When the sun is low in the sky, and bright, such as this time of the
year in my
bit of the UK, and I have to cycle 'into' the sun, I have my rear
lights *on* -
and one in a flashing mode. Just helps make me that bit more visible.

Have you actually tested that theory?

I ask because I had it happen recently, while driving, that sun glare
made it pretty much impossible for me to see where I was going. I
slowed down pulled over until conditions changed, which took about 10
minutes.

I was the only car that stopped. Was I the only driver that was
blinded? Maybe. But I doubt it.

Drivers blinded by sun glare assume, I think, that they can still see
something as big as a car in time to avoid hitting it. And they drive
on, blindly. That appears to be what happened in the fatal collision
that inspired this thread. Blinking lights on the bike would not have
saved the victims.

Knowing they were being overtaken by a blinded driver and being
prepared to bail out might have saved them. (Total speculation; I have
no actual knowledge of the circumstances.)

Me, I assume that all drivers are blind at all times, and ride
accordingly.

RichC

Rich,
I wish there were more like you because everyone around here assumes
that just because they are on a 55MPH back road with little traffice
that there is nothing to hit. I doubt that I would be seen and on
the occasions where I have attempted to appease the law and order crowd
I have been whiffed pretty closely by some big rigs. Six inches is the
closest so far but I was on the edge of the pavement, (read stripe,
no bike lane) and there was no traffic oncoming. The driver could have
easily moved all the way over into the other side but did nothing.
98% of big rig drivers pull way over for me and I give them a wave,
2% get a different kind of wave. I like to stay legal but I am not
going to pursue it to the grave.
Bill Baka

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Bill Baka said:

Remember I live in California???

nope, i get that loud & clear.
--
david reuteler
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Bill Baka [email hidden]

wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Remember I live in California???

Ah, that explains everything because everyone knows that we don't have traffic
or road construction in the Chicago area and drivers here are always careful,
attentive, and courteous.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

"Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rich,
I wish there were more like you because everyone around here assumes
that just because they are on a 55MPH back road with little traffice
that there is nothing to hit. I doubt that I would be seen and on
the occasions where I have attempted to appease the law and order crowd
I have been whiffed pretty closely by some big rigs. Six inches is the
closest so far but I was on the edge of the pavement, (read stripe,
no bike lane) and there was no traffic oncoming. The driver could have
easily moved all the way over into the other side but did nothing.
98% of big rig drivers pull way over for me and I give them a wave,
2% get a different kind of wave. I like to stay legal but I am not
going to pursue it to the grave.
Bill Baka

I would still be riding with the traffic. If I have to bail, I'd rather have
a closing speed of 35mph between me and the truck than one of 75mph.

I know the trucks are coming up behind me. I can hear them, and I can see
them in my mirror. No way I would *ever* ride against traffic in the
situation you describe. It's not a matter of what's legal; it's a matter of
what's safe. I've been riding the roads of Illinois and Pennsylvania and
elsewhere for 45 years, and have plenty of experience with narrow 2-lane
roads with no shoulders and lots of hidden driveways and blind curves.
Riding into the face of 55mph oncoming traffic on a back road with no
shoulder is insane.

RichC