Danish Study on Fantasy Autism-Thimerosal Link

Mark Probert said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/04/health/04VACC.html

From the article...

"In the study, published this week in the journal Pediatrics, a team of
Danish doctors counted all the diagnoses of autism in the country from 1971
to 2000. They found no decrease after 1992, when Denmark became the first
country in the world to ban the preservative, thimerosal.

Rather, autism diagnoses continued to skyrocket on the same trajectory that
began in the late 1980's, rising from less than one case per 10,000 Danish
youngsters in 1990 to more than three a decade later."

The article points out how the anti-mercury/vaccinationistas attempted to
discount the findings, and were shown to be wrong.

Oh well, the anti-vac liars will have to cook up some new whacko ideas.

Or just keep modifying their theory to fit the data.

"Once almost all one's energies are expended on protecting one's core
theory from being falsified, it is no longer being approached as a
scientific theory but as an item of faith - to be defended come what
may."

PF

"Peter Bowditch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jeff said:

I don't think most of the anti-vaccination people are liars. They believe
what they say.

Hardly a week goes by when I don't see an ant-vaccinator say something
which I know that they know is untrue. When the truth is pointed out
to them they just wait a few weeks before saying the lies again. I am,
of course, speaking of the leaders of the movement. The followers may
be deluded and believe what they say.

How do you know that they know? And don't think the followers in the
movement are delude, but, rather, misled.

Jeff

Quoted message said:

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Jeff said:

"Peter Bowditch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jeff said:

I don't think most of the anti-vaccination people are liars. They believe
what they say.

Hardly a week goes by when I don't see an ant-vaccinator say something
which I know that they know is untrue. When the truth is pointed out
to them they just wait a few weeks before saying the lies again. I am,
of course, speaking of the leaders of the movement. The followers may
be deluded and believe what they say.

How do you know that they know?

Because I see them cite things which they know to be untrue. At least
once a month I see the "MMR has mercury" lie. Just yesterday I saw the
"vaccines are made from aborted foetuses" lie. A month ago I was told
the "it is impossible to shake a baby and hurt it" lie. These lies all
came from people who know the truth. They have had the truth pointed
out to them and yet they still lie. They cite medical publications
which do not contain the words that they quote. They fabricate numbers
which can be proved to be incorrect, yet they continue to quote them
after the errors have been pointed out. They relate anecdotes of such
transparent falseness that they would make honest people blush.

Quoted message said:

And don't think the followers in the
movement are delude, but, rather, misled.

Deluded and misled are points on a continuum. I have no fight with the
followers, just as I have no fight with the victims of medical
quackery. People believe what authoritative gurus tell them because
they don't have the education or critical skills to see through the
deception.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Quoted message said:

From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 9/6/2003 4:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Because I see them cite things which they know to be untrue.

Right back at ya. Did they learn it from you?

<snip>

Quoted message said:

These lies all
came from people who know the truth.

Right back at ya. Did they learn it from you?

Quoted message said:

They have had the truth pointed
out to them and yet they still lie.

Right back at ya. Did they learn it from you?

Quoted message said:

They relate anecdotes of such
transparent falseness that they would make honest people blush.

Look who is talking about being honest.

Quoted message said:

Deluded and misled are points on a continuum

And *blatant* lies are?!?!

<snip>

Quoted message said:

People believe what authoritative gurus tell them because
they don't have the education or critical skills to see through the
deception.

Peter is an expert on deception. He has had much practice.

And if the deception comes from organized medicine it is A OK.

Like the deception of Dr Wilson.

Ho hum.

Jan

I don't give a damn if Peter lied to you, this newsgroup, his mother, or

Quoted message said:

the pope.

Rich Shewmaker Ka Ching

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 9/6/2003 4:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Because I see them cite things which they know to be untrue.

Right back at ya. Did they learn it from you?

Do you approve of people lying about vaccination, Jan?

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

These lies all
came from people who know the truth.

Right back at ya. Did they learn it from you?

Quoted message said:

They have had the truth pointed
out to them and yet they still lie.

Right back at ya. Did they learn it from you?

Quoted message said:

They relate anecdotes of such
transparent falseness that they would make honest people blush.

Look who is talking about being honest.

Quoted message said:

Deluded and misled are points on a continuum

And *blatant* lies are?!?!

<snip>

Quoted message said:

People believe what authoritative gurus tell them because
they don't have the education or critical skills to see through the
deception.

Peter is an expert on deception. He has had much practice.

And if the deception comes from organized medicine it is A OK.

Lots of $Kachings! there.

Quoted message said:

Like the deception of Dr Wilson.

Do I detect a veiled reference to Jesse?

Quoted message said:

Ho hum.

Keep on sleeping. The 2003 death toll from measles is only 508,209
(approximately) children so far. One of the professional
anti-vaccination liars has told me that measles is "benign". Do you
think she is lying, Jan?

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Danish Study on Fantasy Autism-Thimerosal Link
From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 9/6/2003 6:02 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 9/6/2003 4:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Because I see them cite things which they know to be untrue.

Right back at ya. Did they learn it from you?

Do you approve of people lying about vaccination, Jan?

Duh. I don't approve of lying,,,,,,Period. Unlike Rich Shewmaker, and evidently
YOU!

Quoted message said:

These lies all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

came from people who know the truth.

Right back at ya. Did they learn it from you?

Quoted message said:

They have had the truth pointed
out to them and yet they still lie.

Quoted message said:

Right back at ya. Did they learn it from you?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They relate anecdotes of such
transparent falseness that they would make honest people blush.

Look who is talking about being honest.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Deluded and misled are points on a continuum

And *blatant* lies are?!?!

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

People believe what authoritative gurus tell them because

Quoted message said:

they don't have the education or critical skills to see through the
deception.

Peter is an expert on deception. He has had much practice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And if the deception comes from organized medicine it is A OK.

Lots of $Kachings! there.

Lots of LIES there!! The Ka Ching man, doesn't give a damn if you lie to this
newsgroup, me, your mom or the pope.

Quoted message said:

Like the deception of Dr Wilson.

Do I detect a veiled reference to Jesse?

Do you approve of Cover-ups??

Do you approve of not telling the whole truth??

Do you approve of LIES??

Do you approve of going ahead with a medical procedure even though amonia
levels were double the safety limit??

Do you approve of filing “false and misleading” reports and “repeatedly
and
deliberately violated regulations*??

Are the lies you notice selective??

Ho hum.

Quoted message said:

Keep on sleeping.

Nope, I am wide awake.

Quoted message said:

The 2003 death toll from measles is only 508,209
(approximately) children so far. One of the professional
anti-vaccination liars has told me that measles is "benign". Do you
think she is lying, Jan?

Sorry, Peter, I can't believe a thing you say. you have LIED too many times!!
Rich doesn't give a damn, so why be concerned about any lies?????

Jan

I don't give a damn if Peter lied to you, this newsgroup, his mother, or

Quoted message said:

the pope.

Rich Shewmaker Ka Ching

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

The 2003 death toll from measles is only 508,209
(approximately) children so far. One of the professional
anti-vaccination liars has told me that measles is "benign". Do you
think she is lying, Jan?

Sorry, Peter, I can't believe a thing you say. you have LIED too many times!!
Rich doesn't give a damn, so why be concerned about any lies?????

So there you have it. Jan does not believe that many children die of
measles. And why does she not believe this? Because I say it.

Note how Jan will not comment on Meryl Dorey's lie about measles being
"benign". Of course, Dorey publishes an alternative medicine magazine,
so whatever she says must be the truth. In Janland.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Danish Study on Fantasy Autism-Thimerosal Link
From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 9/6/2003 7:03 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

The 2003 death toll from measles is only 508,209
(approximately) children so far. One of the professional
anti-vaccination liars has told me that measles is "benign". Do you
think she is lying, Jan?

Sorry, Peter, I can't believe a thing you say. you have LIED too many

times!!

Quoted message said:

Rich doesn't give a damn, so why be concerned about any lies?????

So there you have it. Jan does not believe that many children die of
measles. And why does she not believe this? Because I say it.

Yes, after the way you have lied and you know it, you are a hypocrite for
mentioning other lies. You earned that all by your lonesome. You had ample
opportunity to admit it, retract or change it, instead you made the lies worse
and repeated them.

Quoted message said:

Note how Jan will not comment on Meryl Dorey's lie about measles being
"benign".

I have never heard of Meryl Dorey.

Quoted message said:

Of course, Dorey publishes an alternative medicine magazine,
so whatever she says must be the truth. In Janland.

Won't work Peter. There is no Janland.

However there is a Shewmakerland. He doesn't give a damn if you lie, so I guess
he approves of lying while Ka Chinging. How does that grab ya??

Jan

I don't give a damn if Peter lied to you, this newsgroup, his mother, or

Quoted message said:

the pope.

Rich Shewmaker Ka Ching

--

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

However there is a Shewmakerland. He doesn't give a damn if you lie, so I

guess

Quoted message said:

he approves of lying while Ka Chinging. How does that grab ya??

Jan

Unlike you, Jan, I haven't appointed myself the truth cop of the internet.
What I meant by the statement that you take such glee in quoting is that I
do not take it on myself to determine the truth or falsehood of every
statement made in this newsgroup. When people lie, their lies eventually
come back to bite them, and it is not my responsibility to assist the
process. You seem to think that it is yours, even though you have
demonstrated a total lack of ability to separate lie from error from truth,
and are guilty of bearing false witness, a sin in your own religion.

Oh, and KaChing KaChing KaChing KaChing KaChing $13.

--Rich

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark Probert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/04/health/04VACC.html

From the article...

"In the study, published this week in the journal Pediatrics, a team of
Danish doctors counted all the diagnoses of autism in the country from

1971

Quoted message said:

to 2000. They found no decrease after 1992, when Denmark became the

first

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

country in the world to ban the preservative, thimerosal.

Rather, autism diagnoses continued to skyrocket on the same trajectory

that

Quoted message said:

began in the late 1980's, rising from less than one case per 10,000

Danish

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

youngsters in 1990 to more than three a decade later."

The article points out how the anti-mercury/vaccinationistas attempted

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

discount the findings, and were shown to be wrong.

Oh well, the anti-vac liars will have to cook up some new whacko ideas.

I don't think most of the anti-vaccination people are liars. They believe
what they say.

However, this articles demonstrates another line of evidence that vaccines
do not cause autism. The article certainly does not prove it. But this,
along with many scientific studies clearly demonstrates that neither

mercury

Quoted message said:

nor vaccines contribute the rise of autism and that mercury and vaccines
cause very few, at most.

Sadly, the people who so much want to prevent autism are wasting so many
resources on this hypothesis which has practically been totally disproved.
How sad that that these people don't put their energy to good use.

Agreed. A Newsweek article pointed out that a study whowed that Autism is
substantially more often found in boys. If boys and girls get equal amounts
of vaccines, then, there is another factor whic mitigates against the
vaccination claims.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/959486.asp

http://www.msnbc.com/news/958646.asp

Jan said:

Sorry, Peter, I can't believe a thing you say. you have LIED too many
times!! Rich doesn't give a damn, so why be concerned about any lies?????

Says Jan Drew, who walks over bodies.

Jan Drew, you will pay for that.

Jan said:

Quoted message said:

Note how Jan will not comment on Meryl Dorey's lie about measles being
"benign".

I have never heard of Meryl Dorey.

Jan Drew never heard of anything which does not fit into here mafia sales
schemes. Jan Drew is a naturopath mafia advertizing agency. But Jan Drew
will pay for that...

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Bowditch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jeff said:

I don't think most of the anti-vaccination people are liars. They

believe

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what they say.

Hardly a week goes by when I don't see an ant-vaccinator say something
which I know that they know is untrue. When the truth is pointed out
to them they just wait a few weeks before saying the lies again. I am,
of course, speaking of the leaders of the movement. The followers may
be deluded and believe what they say.

How do you know that they know?

They were shown that they are wrong and they keep repeating what they know
is not true. Thus, lies.

And don't think the followers in the

Quoted message said:

movement are delude, but, rather, misled.

Jeff

Quoted message said:

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 9/6/2003 4:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Because I see them cite things which they know to be untrue.

Right back at ya. Did they learn it from you?

<snip>

Quoted message said:

These lies all
came from people who know the truth.

Right back at ya. Did they learn it from you?

Quoted message said:

They have had the truth pointed
out to them and yet they still lie.

Right back at ya. Did they learn it from you?

Quoted message said:

They relate anecdotes of such
transparent falseness that they would make honest people blush.

Look who is talking about being honest.

Quoted message said:

Deluded and misled are points on a continuum

And *blatant* lies are?!?!

<snip>

Quoted message said:

People believe what authoritative gurus tell them because
they don't have the education or critical skills to see through the
deception.

Peter is an expert on deception. He has had much practice.

This thread i snot about Peter or Jan, but can become about Jan real fast if
she keeps this up.

"Roger Schlafly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Eric Bohlman" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thimerosal was in other vaccines (and still is, in smaller amounts).
People were concerned about the total amount of mercury
that goes into kids.

Which excuses statements that the thimerosal in MMR causes autism

exactly

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Quoted message said:

how?

What statements? I don't know what statements you are referring to,
but I think you missed the point. Most people don't like thimerosal in
vaccines, and they don't want it in any vaccines. US kids now get
about 21 vaccine shots between birth and age 2, and it is hard to
keep track of which have thimerosal and which don't.

You know, Roger, there is this neat thing called the "Internet." There is a
way of finding pages on the Internet called "Google." Forexample, with
simple keywords ( thimerosal + vaccines + content ), you can find out how
thimerosal vaccines have. The site listed has your answer:
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm.

Now, please don't excuse someone attacking vaccines for having bad
information. If someone makes a claim, he should be able to back it up.

Quoted message said:

Apparently someone in this thread thinks he found an example
of some anonymous person making a slight and inconsequential
misstatement of the facts.

Not a slight and inconsequential mistatement of fact. The person was basing
his arguement on thimerosal in the vaccines.

Quoted message said:

Big deal.

Only if you consider honesty and facts important for an arguement.

Quoted message said:

The fact is that thimerosal was being
used in several childhood vaccines at level that exceeded safety
regulations.

Irrelevent. The arguement was that mercury from MMR causes autism.

In addition, the form of mercury in vaccines has never been shown to harm
any child in the quantities that used to be used in vaccines.

They were removed from most vaccines because theoretically, it seemed to be
a good idea, despite the lack of evidence that the thimerosal was harmful.

Jeff

"Mark Probert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

(...)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However, if mercury somehow makes one more susceptible to whatever

causes

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autism, you can still end up with more boys than girls affected.

Either way, the people who believe that autism is caused by vaccines

have

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yet to provide much evidence that autism is caused by vaccines. In

addition,

Quoted message said:

there is very convincing evidence that autism is not caused by vaccines,
including developmental neuroscience, pathology and immunology.

I think you let the anti-vacs off too lightly. There has never been any
evidence showing that there is a causal link. None. Nada. What they use

is,

Quoted message said:

as best conjecture or stupidity. At worst, outright lies.

There was sufficient evidence to form a hypothesis that vaccines cause
autism. In addition, the timing of autism and vaccines, while totally
coincidental, would support the hypothesis. However, the hypothesis has been
tested and found to be false.

In addition, a lot of the anitvacc's aren't rational. They just know their
kids or neighbor kids or grandkids were harmed by vaccines. Of course, it
was total coincidence and the signs of autism are clear in video tapes of
the kids before they got the shots. So I believe many antivacc's are
mislead, but well-meaning people.

Finally, I don't care what their motivation is. Attacking the people does no
good. The best thing, IMHO, is to educate people about the truth with real
evidence.

Jeff

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

simple keywords ( thimerosal + vaccines + content ), you can find out how
thimerosal vaccines have. The site listed has your answer:
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm.

Send it to "ratbag" Peter.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Apparently someone in this thread thinks he found an example
of some anonymous person making a slight and inconsequential
misstatement of the facts.

Not a slight and inconsequential mistatement of fact. The person was

basing

Quoted message said:

his arguement on thimerosal in the vaccines.

And the fact is ...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The fact is that thimerosal was being
used in several childhood vaccines at level that exceeded safety
regulations.

"Roger Schlafly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

simple keywords ( thimerosal + vaccines + content ), you can find out

how

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

thimerosal vaccines have. The site listed has your answer:
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm.

Send it to "ratbag" Peter.

You stated "....US kids now get
about 21 vaccine shots between birth and age 2, and it is hard to
keep track of which have thimerosal and which don't...."

And I responded: "You know, Roger, there is this neat thing called the
"Internet." There is a
way of finding pages on the Internet called "Google." Forexample, with
simple keywords ( thimerosal + vaccines + content ), you can find out how
thimerosal vaccines have. The site listed has your answer:
vaccinesafety.eduthi table.htm."Open ↗

I demonstrated that is is easy to keep track of which vaccines have
thimerasol in them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Apparently someone in this thread thinks he found an example
of some anonymous person making a slight and inconsequential
misstatement of the facts.

Not a slight and inconsequential mistatement of fact. The person was

basing

Quoted message said:

his arguement on thimerosal in the vaccines.

And the fact is ...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The fact is that thimerosal was being
used in several childhood vaccines at level that exceeded safety
regulations.

Thanks again for your editing my remarks without indicating that fact. You
show your true colors: Intellectual dishonesty.

Too bad you resort to weasal tactics instead of answering our concerns, like
that one that thimerosal in MMR was a key part of the arguement that
vaccines cause autism.

Jeff

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

vaccinesafety.eduthi table.htm."Open ↗
I demonstrated that is is easy to keep track of which vaccines have
thimerasol in them.
[usual ad hominem attack snipped]

The mercury stuff is called thimerosal, not thimerasol. I suggest that
you correct your own petty errors, before launching into an attack
on the petty and insignificant errors of others.