Death means life

Halcitron said:

#
Even vegetables must die. I have never know anyone to survive without killing something. Death of
one life is the fact of life for another.
#

this is obviously another person trying to justify their meat eating to vegetarians.

the real reason people post messages like this is because deep down they feel guilty about their
meat eating. they look at vegetarians and deep down they know they're doing the right thing.

we should not condemn people for making statements like this. the fact that they are even trying to
justify it shows an inner battle is going on. this is the first step that leads many times to
vegetarianism.

Thank you Halcitron, for posting your message. It is true that everything must die. But many of us
see a difference between an animal and a plant. As you know, animals have nerves. They feel pain.
They have consciousness. They have memories. They have brains.

As Paul McCartney says, "I won't eat anything with a face on it." I can't tell you how many times
I've said that when people ask me what I eat and what I don't eat. For many of us, it really is as
simple as that.

Many people say, "I love animals, but I just like meat too much." We live in a free country and
everyone is allowed to make their own decisions about many things, including whether or not they
will eat meat. Most of the people in this newsgroup believe you should have that right to choose. If
you choose to eat meat, it is a conscious personal decision to do so. There is no need to justify
your choice to vegetarians. The only person you need to justify it to is yourself. If you are having
a hard time justifying it to yourself, by saying that killing an animal is the same as killing a
plant, it is something you need to work out internally.

I liked meat at one point in my life also. When I made the decision to stop eating it, it was easy
to do it, because my mind was already there. The more I thought about it, the more I realized I had
to do it. And from that point on, it has been one of the major things in my life that makes me feel
good about myself.

Peace to you, brother gary

Quoted message said:

caveat lector

Halcitron misc.survivalism Check your six and know when to duck. NRA Member since 2002 The Law of
the Land, is the weapon in your hand.

Smith & Wesson starts where the Bill of Rights stop.

[email hidden] (Halcitron) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

#
Even vegetables must die. I have never know anyone to survive without killing something. Death of
one life is the fact of life for another.
#

There is in fact no way to go through life without killing another living organism. Be it plants,
animals, insect, etc. Everytime a developer clears land to make way from a new neighborhood, or a
new road, some kind of organism is going to die. You cannot drive you car without killing a bug on a
daily basis. I think everyone in this forum can conceed that.

I myself have just become a vegetarian again after a 5 years hiatus. I know that when I eat
vegetables, that indeed I am taking another life. But there is a difference between animals and
plants. Plants do not have feelings, this comes from a lack of a nervous system. Plants don't feel
it when you slaughter them. Unlike animals.

What drove be to become a vegetarian again was the inhumane way the animals are kept that we use for
our food. It is also very unhealthy. Many of the animals that are slaughtered for our food are full
of disease. Do yourself a favor and pick up the book "Diet for a New America" by John Robbins. You
will see the horrible conditions the animals are kept in. Trust me you will never want to eat meat
again after you find out what the do to the animals that your are eating for your dinner tonight.
They are pumped full of antibiotics and are ravished with disease. Just remember that when your
eating your steak dinner tonight.

Gary Beckwith said:

Halcitron said:

#
Even vegetables must die. I have never know anyone to survive without killing something. Death of
one life is the fact of life for another.
#

this is obviously another person trying to justify their meat eating to vegetarians.

the real reason people post messages like this is because deep down they feel guilty about their
meat eating. they look at vegetarians and deep down they know they're doing the right thing.

No, that's completely wrong. The reason people post things like this is to disabuse "vegans" of the
idea that just because they don't consume any animal parts doesn't mean that animals aren't dying as
part of furnishing the "vegans" with the things they consume.

"vegans" commit a classical logical fallacy, Denying the Antecedent:

If I consume products containing animal parts, I cause animals to suffer and die.

I do not consume products containing animal parts;

Therefore, I do not cause animals to suffer and die.

The logical form is invalid, and the conclusion is false. The production, storage and distribution
of the things you consume, most particularly your food, DO INDEED cause animals to suffer and die.

The burden of proof is upon so-called "ethical vegetarians" to show that it is wrong to cause
animals to suffer and die, AND that they aren't doing it. They FAIL on both counts.

"Jennifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Halcitron) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

#
Even vegetables must die. I have never know anyone to survive without killing something.
Death of

one

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

life is the fact of life for another.
#

There is in fact no way to go through life without killing another living organism. Be it plants,
animals, insect, etc. Everytime a developer clears land to make way from a new neighborhood, or a
new road, some kind of organism is going to die. You cannot drive you car without killing a bug on
a daily basis. I think everyone in this forum can conceed that.

I myself have just become a vegetarian again after a 5 years hiatus. I know that when I eat
vegetables, that indeed I am taking another life. But there is a difference between animals and
plants. Plants do not have feelings, this comes from a lack of a nervous system. Plants don't feel
it when you slaughter them. Unlike animals.

=====================
The discussion isn't really about plants that die for you food, it's the massive amounts of mammals,
birds, reptiles, fish, and amphibians that die for your veg*n diet. that's what seems to be totally
ignored by most veg*ns.

Quoted message said:

What drove be to become a vegetarian again was the inhumane way the animals are kept that we use
for our food.

==========================
And how is that? many are loose, and free roaming until they go to slaughter.

It is also very unhealthy.
================
No, it is not. Your diet too can be unhealthy.

Quoted message said:

Many of the animals that are slaughtered for our food are full of disease.

=======================
LOL

Do yourself a favor and pick up the book "Diet for a New

Quoted message said:

America" by John Robbins. You will see the horrible conditions the animals are kept in.

======================
Propaganda scree...

Trust me you will never want to eat meat again

Quoted message said:

after you find out what the do to the animals that your are eating for your dinner tonight. They
are pumped full of antibiotics and are ravished with disease. Just remember that when your eating
your steak dinner tonight.

==================
Remember the animals that you sliced, diced, shredded, dis-membered or poisoned while eating your
tofu tonight.

Quoted message said:

The discussion isn't really about plants that die for you food, it's the massive amounts of
mammals, birds, reptiles, fish, and amphibians that die for your veg*n diet. that's what seems to
be totally ignored by most veg*ns.

If you actually read what I posted I said that I know there is no way to go through life without
killing another animal. I know that animals are killed when forest are cleared to make way for farm
to plant the veggies I eat. Anyone who has a brain can see that. But with my diet less animals are
killed. Do you know how much grain it takes to produce 1 pound of steak? 9 pounds. The majority of
the grain that is produced in this country is used for the feeding of livestock. If we stopped
cattle farming, we would have to produce less grain, and that would indeed stop more animals from
dying when fields are cleared to make way for grain fields.

Animals are allowed to roam free? Really where? The majority of the animals that are used for our
food never see the light of day. There are kept in cages most of their lives. There are some smaller
cattle farms that do allow cows to roam free. But these are not the farms that produce the majority
of our meats. That is a fact. That is not some PETA brainwashing. If you actually were to ready up
more on the subject, then you would see that most animals are kept in warehouses there whole lives.
Want proof. Pick up a magazine that caters to cattle ranch farmers. They go into great detail on how
to maximize your profits in cattle farming. If cattle farmers were indeed keeping the cattle in
natural conditions, and allowing them to graze on grass an hay, the way mother nature designed them,
then we would not have mad cow disease the would we?

Quoted message said:

And how is that? many are loose, and free roaming until they go to slaughter.

Do yourself a favor and pick up the book "Diet for a New

Quoted message said:

America" by John Robbins. You will see the horrible conditions the animals are kept in.

======================
Propaganda scree...

I know this may be a futile attempt to enlighten you but here is a good website that explains
factory farms:

factoryfarm.orgwhatisOpen ↗

Here are some of the highlights for you:

-Meat production in the United States has changed dramatically over the past 20 years. Many of
today's farms are actually industrial facilities, not the peaceful, idyllic family farms most
Americans think of. These factory farms are also known as confined animal feeding operations (CAFOs)
or intensive livestock operations (ILOs). They emphasize high volume and profit with minimal regard
for human health, safe food, the environment, humane treatment of animals, and the rural economy -
in other words, factory farms are not sustainable.

-An estimated 70% of all antibiotics in the U.S. are fed to pigs, poultry and cattle merely to
promote growth and to compensate for the unsanitary and confined conditions on factory farms. This
medically unnecessary use of antibiotics fosters the development of antibiotic-resistant bacteria
that can spread to other animals and humans.

-Rather than acknowledge the role of factory farm methods in promoting illness-causing pathogens,
the meat industry is increasingly turning to food irradiation as a way to make their meat "safe" to
eat. Irradiation is a quick fix that exposes food to high doses of ionizing radiation, which
depletes vitamins and creates new and potentially hazardous chemicals and nuclear waste, while doing
nothing to treat the source of the problem.

-The USDA estimates that animals in the U.S. meat industry produced
1.4 billion tons of waste in 1997 - 130 times the nation's volume of human waste and five tons of
animal waste for every U.S. citizen.

-Yes. Many animals in factory farms never see direct sunlight; their feet never touch the earth, and
they are unable to behave naturally. Chickens are crammed tightly into small cages stacked on top of
each other; the birds cannot spread their wings or peck the ground. Pigs cannot root or nest; they
live indoors, packed together on slatted or concrete floors. Cows are confined to stalls indoors or
on dirt- and manure-covered feedlots.

-Yes. Factory farms are quickly taking over the livestock industry. In the poultry industry, 98% of
all poultry is now produced by corporations, forcing family farms out of business.

Quoted message said:

"vegans" commit a classical logical fallacy, Denying
the Antecedent:

If I consume products containing animal parts, I cause animals to suffer and die.

I do not consume products containing animal parts;

Therefore, I do not cause animals to suffer and die.

The logical form is invalid, and the conclusion is false. The production, storage and distribution
of the things you consume, most particularly your food, DO INDEED cause animals to suffer and die.

Gee, I didn't know you could read minds and you know why all vegans make the choices they do. How do
you know that all vegans think that by making their choice that they do not cause any animals to
suffer? Where do you get that idea? I, and most logical people, know that all industry causes some
kind of suffering. Any time something is transported, the fuel had to come from somewhere. The
materials in the truck, the packaging, everything comes with a cost. That does not mean we are
idiots for becoming vegetarian. It just means we want to minimize our impact. And that's only how
some of us feel. I, unlike you, do not pretend to know how all vegetarians feel about anything.

Anyone who thinks that a meat-eater causes less suffering of animals than a vegetarian has been
using some "fuzzy logic". Remember, meat has to be transported, grown, and packaged too. And every
cow and chicken eats the same grains that you are saying are so detrimental to animals anyway.

Quoted message said:

Do yourself a favor and pick up the book "Diet for a New

Quoted message said:

America" by John Robbins. You will see the horrible conditions the animals are kept in.

======================
Propaganda scree...

now you're showing your true colors. whenever you see something you don't like, even if you know
it's true, just call it propoganda. pictures don't lie, and either do ranchers who have told their
stories. Now I get it, you're just grasping at straws looking for any argument to say vegans are
stupid. It starts by saying that millions of mammals die at the hands of vegetable production and it
leads to denial of truth. You know, denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

Quoted message said:

The burden of proof is upon so-called "ethical vegetarians" to show that it is wrong to cause
animals to suffer and die, AND that they aren't doing it. They FAIL on both counts.

Okay here is proof. If animals were kept in natural conditions all along, then we would never would
have had to worry about Mad Cow Disease. The fact that feeding animals, who happen to be vegetarian
by design, their own kind caused the out-break of mad cow disease in the UK and the case in the US.
This was very un-ethical on the part of the cattle industry. If ranchers pratice more ethical
farming, then we would not have the problem with mad cow and the high rates of e-coli.

It is un-ethical to mess with mother nature. She will bite you in the ass.

Jennifer said:

Quoted message said:

The discussion isn't really about plants that die for you food, it's the massive amounts of
mammals, birds, reptiles, fish, and amphibians that die for your veg*n diet. that's what seems to
be totally ignored by most veg*ns.

If you actually read what I posted I said that I know there is no way to go through life without
killing another animal. I know that animals are killed when forest are cleared to make way for
farm to plant the veggies I eat. Anyone who has a brain can see that. But with my diet less
animals are killed.

You simply don't know that. You would have to have counted, and we all know you haven't. What you've
done is leapt to an unwarranted conclusion.

In any case, morality isn't relative or comparative in that way. If you viciously beat your child
once a day, and your sister viciously beats her child twice a day, you are not twice as virtuous as
your sister, and you are not entitled to conclude you're a good person at all.

Quoted message said:

Do you know how much grain it takes to produce 1 pound of steak? 9 pounds.

False. That's a totally horseshit number.

Anyway, who cares? You kill animals with your diet, yet you adopted the diet in the false belief
that you wouldn't.

[...]

Quoted message said:

Animals are allowed to roam free? Really where?

All over the American west, moron.

Quoted message said:

The majority of the animals that are used for our food never see the light of day.

False.

Quoted message said:

There are kept in cages most of their lives.

False.

Quoted message said:

There are some smaller cattle farms that do allow cows to roam free.

They are called ranches, not farms. The overwhelming majority of North American beef cattle spend
the overwhelming majority of their lives roaming free, grazing on grass. They are then 'finished' in
feedlots, where they are *still* outside, not kept in buildings as you falsely believe.

Quoted message said:

But these are not the farms that produce the majority of our meats. That is a fact.

They are the ranches that produce the majority of our beef. Your grasp of "facts" is
extremely shaky.

Quoted message said:

That is not some PETA brainwashing.

It most certainly is!

Quoted message said:

If you actually were to ready up more on the subject, then you would see that most animals are
kept in warehouses there whole lives.

False.

Quoted message said:

Want proof.

Yes.

Quoted message said:

Pick up a magazine that caters to cattle ranch farmers.

No. YOU made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.

Get busy.

Quoted message said:

They go into great detail on how to maximize your profits in cattle farming.

Probably; that's a matter of great interest to ranchers and farmers.

[...]

"Jennifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message <snip>

Quoted message said:

Animals are allowed to roam free? Really where? The majority of the animals that are used for our
food never see the light of day.

Jennifer, I know that every time my family goes for a drive of any distance we see fields and fields
full of grazing cattle.

From what I've been able to gather, most cattle are raised like that and only sent to the feed lots
for finishing.

Quoted message said:

There are kept in cages most of their lives.

Unless you consider a huge open pasture fenced in, a "Cage" then you're wrong.

Quoted message said:

There are some smaller cattle farms that do allow cows to roam free. But these are not the farms
that produce the majority of our meats. That is a fact. That is not some PETA brainwashing.

Then where did you get this information?

-Rubystars

"Jennifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The discussion isn't really about plants that die for you food, it's the massive amounts of
mammals, birds, reptiles, fish, and amphibians that

die

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for your veg*n diet. that's what seems to be totally ignored by most veg*ns.

If you actually read what I posted I said that I know there is no way to go through life without
killing another animal. I know that animals are killed when forest are cleared to make way for
farm to plant the veggies I eat.

========================
Only then? Try right now. Plowing, seeding, spraying, harvesting, storage, processing, and
transportation all cause animal death and suffering. And before you start on 'bugs', it's mamma;s,
birds, reptiles, fish, and amphibians that I am talking about. Many are killed *deliberately* just
to keep your veggies clean, cheap, and convenient.

Anyone who has a brain can see that. But

Quoted message said:

with my diet less animals are killed.

========================
Show your proof. You can't, because it's a terrible ly.

Do you know how much grain it

Quoted message said:

takes to produce 1 pound of steak? 9 pounds.

===========================
Another ly. It takes absolutly *zero* amount of grain to produce beef. Zero, as in none.

The majority of the

Quoted message said:

grain that is produced in this country is used for the feeding of livestock. If we stopped cattle
farming, we would have to produce less grain, and that would indeed stop more animals from dying
when fields are cleared to make way for grain fields.

====================
LOL Your brainwashing is showing. Areas aren't being cleared in thios country to make wway for
fields of grain. In fact, farmland is being paved over by the convenience oriented consumer driven
people that want only cheap, convenient veggies.

Quoted message said:

Animals are allowed to roam free? Really where?

======================
I many places. That you are too blind-folded or brainwashed to really see that is your problem.
Well, that and all the extra animals you kill for your diet and lifestyle because of the lys
you believe.

The majority of the

Quoted message said:

animals that are used for our food never see the light of day. There are kept in cages most of
their lives. There are some smaller cattle farms that do allow cows to roam free. But these are
not the farms that produce the majority of our meats. That is a fact.

=====================
That is a ly.

That is not

Quoted message said:

some PETA brainwashing.

====================
Yes, it is. You do know that PeTA kills more animals than they save once they get their bloody hands
on them don't you? The 'e' in their logo isn't lower case for nothing.

If you actually were to ready up more on the

Quoted message said:

subject, then you would see that most animals are kept in warehouses there whole lives.

=======================
No, they are not. And besides, why does that then make you claim all meat is bad, and all
veggies are good?

Want proof. Pick up a magazine that caters to

Quoted message said:

cattle ranch farmers. They go into great detail on how to maximize your profits in cattle farming.
If cattle farmers were indeed keeping the cattle in natural conditions, and allowing them to graze
on grass

=======================
If you were even honest in your spew, you'd realize that many animals are kept just this way. And,
the market is growing. Growing because of meat eaters, not because some loons are not buying meat.
If you give producers an alternative, they will produce what the market wants. Now, you on the other
hand continue to support the animal farming that you are ranting about here. How much of any crop
raised for people do you eat? Maybe 10%, 20%, 70%? Where do you think the waste goes? Right into the
cattle industry you claim to despise. So, by eating only veggies, you support the industry you're
ranting about. Now, if you replaced 100s of 1000s of your calories with just one animal death, you'd
lower your overall impact on the number of animals that die, *and* your support of an industry you
claim to despise.

Quoted message said:

an hay, the way mother nature designed them, then we would not have mad cow disease the would we?

====================
You do realize that virtually all cows are already raised on grass, don't you? Or has your
brainwashing taken full control?

"Jennifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And how is that? many are loose, and free roaming until they go to slaughter.

Do yourself a favor and pick up the book "Diet for a New

Quoted message said:

America" by John Robbins. You will see the horrible conditions the animals are kept in.

======================
Propaganda scree...

I know this may be a futile attempt to enlighten you but here is a good website that explains
factory farms:

factoryfarm.orgwhatisOpen ↗

==================
So? Why do you imply that this is all meat? Why is it *you* support this industry instead of buying
meat from an alternative producer?

Why is it you focus all this time and energy on something you basically have little control over,
and ignore your impact from the diet you eat now? Why do you assume that your diet is cruelty-free
compared to any meat included diet?

"Gary Beckwith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do yourself a favor and pick up the book "Diet for a New

Quoted message said:

America" by John Robbins. You will see the horrible conditions the animals are kept in.

======================
Propaganda scree...

now you're showing your true colors. whenever you see something you don't like, even if you know
it's true, just call it propoganda.

======================
No, when I see propaganda, I call it propaganda.

Quoted message said:

pictures don't lie, and either do ranchers who have told their stories.

======================
ROTFLMAO Yeah right! And PeTA and other AR loons have never staged any 'photo ops' either. ou really
are hilarious tonight.

Quoted message said:

Now I get it, you're just grasping at straws looking for any argument to say vegans are stupid.

====================
I don't have to do anything. They prove that with each and every post they make, like you
have, killer.

It starts by saying that millions of mammals die

Quoted message said:

at the hands of vegetable production and it leads to denial of truth. You know, denial isn't just
a river in Egypt.

==================
Oh wow, such wit! The denial apparently is all yours. You can't deny that your veggies cause death
and suffering. Well, you can deny it, dishonestly, what you can't do is back up the claim that
they don't.

"Gary Beckwith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"vegans" commit a classical logical fallacy, Denying the Antecedent:

If I consume products containing animal parts, I cause animals to suffer and die.

I do not consume products containing animal parts;

Therefore, I do not cause animals to suffer and die.

The logical form is invalid, and the conclusion is false. The production, storage and
distribution of the things you consume, most particularly your food, DO INDEED cause animals to
suffer and die.

Gee, I didn't know you could read minds and you know why all vegans make the choices they do. How
do you know that all vegans think that by making their choice that they do not cause any animals
to suffer? Where do you get that idea? I, and most logical people, know that all industry causes
some kind of suffering. Any time something is transported, the fuel had to come from somewhere.
The materials in the truck, the packaging, everything comes with a cost. That does not mean we are
idiots for becoming vegetarian. It just means we want to minimize our impact.

==========================
Yet you just admitted that you don't. You don't even try to. All you do is follow a simple rule for
simple minds, 'eat no meat'. No where have you, or can you prove that your diet does anything to
alleviate the death and suffering of animals. In fact, you may be causing even more. The point is,
you don't know, and you don't care to find out.

And that's only how some of us feel. I, unlike

Quoted message said:

you, do not pretend to know how all vegetarians feel about anything.

Anyone who thinks that a meat-eater causes less suffering of animals than a vegetarian has been
using some "fuzzy logic".

==========================
Nope. Perfectly logical. It's your brain that has turned mushy, killer. Tell me how many animals die
for 1 grass fed cow, or for one deer. Care to give it a try? ow many animals die for the same number
of calories for that tofu replacement? care to try? I didn't think so, killer. There are many meat-
included diets that can do far better in lessening animal cruelty than your veggie diet.

Remember, meat has

Quoted message said:

to be transported, grown, and packaged too.

==========================
Nope. My beef is raised, slaughtered and packaged within a few miles of my house. many of your
veggies come from across the country and around the world.

And every cow and chicken

Quoted message said:

eats the same grains that you are saying are so detrimental to animals anyway.

==========================
Nope. Just another veg*n ly and delusional brainwashing.

Gary Beckwith said:

Quoted message said:

"vegans" commit a classical logical fallacy, Denying the Antecedent:

If I consume products containing animal parts, I cause animals to suffer and die.

I do not consume products containing animal parts;

Therefore, I do not cause animals to suffer and die.

The logical form is invalid, and the conclusion is false. The production, storage and distribution
of the things you consume, most particularly your food, DO INDEED cause animals to suffer and die.

Gee, I didn't know you could read minds and you know why all vegans make the choices they do.

No mind reading necessary.

Quoted message said:

How do you know that all vegans think that by making their choice that they do not cause any
animals to suffer?

inadequate, unprinicpled rule.

Quoted message said:

Where do you get that idea?

From reading the [censored] posted by "vegans" in this and other newsgroups over several years.

Quoted message said:

I, and most logical people, know that all industry causes some kind of suffering.

NOW, you do. You didn't when you stupidly adopted the principle-free rule of "veganism".

Quoted message said:

Anyone who thinks that a meat-eater causes less suffering of animals than a vegetarian has been
using some "fuzzy logic".

This is how you PROVE, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you subscribe to some possibly weak form of
the classic fallacy. You DO NOT KNOW that a meat eater doesn't cause less suffering than a "vegan";
you falsely ASSUME that the stupid, sanctimonious, hypocritical,

following the stupid rule.

"Jennifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The burden of proof is upon so-called "ethical vegetarians" to show that it is wrong to cause
animals to suffer and die, AND that they aren't doing it. They FAIL on both counts.

Okay here is proof. If animals were kept in natural conditions all along, then we would never
would have had to worry about Mad Cow Disease.

============================
This has absolutley nothing to do with the animals you cause death and suffering to.

The fact that feeding animals, who happen to be vegetarian

Quoted message said:

by design, their own kind caused the out-break of mad cow disease in the UK and the case in the
US. This was very un-ethical on the part of the cattle industry. If ranchers pratice more ethical
farming, then we would not have the problem with mad cow and the high rates of e-coli.

=====================
Again, this has nothing to do with the animals you cause death and suffering to.

Why is it you can't provide any real proof? Oh, yeah, it doesn't exist.

Again, why is it ok for you to cause the death and suffering of mammals, birds, reptiles, fish, and
amphibians for you vegiies. kill them and leave them to rot?

Quoted message said:

It is un-ethical to mess with mother nature. She will bite you in the ass.

==================
yes, it is, and you mess with her more than some meat eaters.

Jennifer said:

Quoted message said:

The burden of proof is upon so-called "ethical vegetarians" to show that it is wrong to cause
animals to suffer and die, AND that they aren't doing it. They FAIL on both counts.

Okay here is proof.

Quite predictably, it is nothing of the kind, for several reasons...

Quoted message said:

If animals were kept in natural conditions all along, then we would never would have had to worry
about Mad Cow Disease.

You don't know that. The prion theory of BSE transmission is far from confirmed. It's probably going
to be confirmed, but it isn't yet.

Anyway, what does that have to do with the morality of eating meat?! Let's say we kept cattle on the
grassy range their whole lives; hell, let's say we never developed domesticated cattle at all, but
did hunt some wild game. You'd STILL be opposed to it on the grounds that eating meat is morally
wrong. Thus, your offering the "unnatural environment" explanation as "proof" that it is morally
wrong to eat meat is simply laughable. It isn't proof of anything except your failure to understand
what was written.

Quoted message said:

The fact that feeding animals, who happen to be vegetarian by design, their own kind caused the
out-break of mad cow disease in the UK and the case in the US. This was very un-ethical on the
part of the cattle industry.

No, it wasn't unethical per se; what a stupid conclusion. It was, in retrospect, very unwise, and if
scientists and executives in the industry had good reason to know before beginning the practice that
it was likely to lead to something like BSE and nvCJD, then it was unethical of them *with respect
to humans* to have made the move.

But you believe that our use of animals is unethical on wider grounds of animal cruelty, and
pontificating about "mad cow" disease doesn't support that claim at all.

Your shabby ethical argument is against meat eating per se, not against any particular form of
animal husbandry that leads to human illness.

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jennifer said:

Quoted message said:

The discussion isn't really about plants that die for you food, it's the massive amounts of
mammals, birds, reptiles, fish, and amphibians that die for your veg*n diet. that's what seems
to be totally ignored by most veg*ns.

If you actually read what I posted I said that I know there is no way to go through life without
killing another animal. I know that animals are killed when forest are cleared to make way for
farm to plant the veggies I eat. Anyone who has a brain can see that. But with my diet less
animals are killed.

You simply don't know that. You would have to have counted, and we all know you haven't. What
you've done is leapt to an unwarranted conclusion.

It's the conclusion you came to, so are you now admitting you leap to unwarranted conclusions, Jon?

"If you insist on playing a stupid counting game, you'll lose. "vegans" and a few sensible meat
eaters alike have pointed out that the overwhelming majority of grain is grown to feed livestock.
That means if you eat meat that you bought at a store, you cause more deaths: the deaths of the
animals you eat, plus the CDs of the animals killed in the course of producing feed for the
animals you eat.

The counting game is doubly stupid to be offered by meat eaters: the moral issue isn't about
counting, and the meat eater will always lose the game, unless he hunts or raises and slaughters his
own meat." Jonathan Ball Date: 2003-05-22

As you say, the meat eater will always lose the counting game because their diet accrues more than
their vegan opponent's.