Determining LT

In article said:

Anyone have a good way to determine lactate threshold using a trainer and a heart monitor/cycle
computer like the polar 720i (without power measuring or blood lactate testing)? I've seen
protocols described for 'TTs' on the road, but curiously they never mention doing the same thing
on a trainer where external factors like wind, temperature, traffic, hills, etc can be eliminated.

Do a google search for "Conconi test". Polar's software includes the procedure for this and
other tests.

-WG

warren said:

In article said:

Anyone have a good way to determine lactate threshold using a trainer and a heart monitor/cycle
computer like the polar 720i (without power measuring or blood lactate testing)? I've seen
protocols described for 'TTs' on the road, but curiously they never mention doing the same thing
on a trainer where external factors like wind, temperature, traffic, hills, etc can be
eliminated.

Do a google search for "Conconi test". Polar's software includes the procedure for this and
other tests.

I've never had much luck spotting the inflection point.

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

warren said:

In article said:

Anyone have a good way to determine lactate threshold using a trainer and a heart monitor/cycle
computer like the polar 720i (without power measuring or blood lactate testing)? I've seen
protocols described for 'TTs' on the road, but curiously they never mention doing the same
thing on a trainer where external factors like wind, temperature, traffic, hills, etc can be
eliminated.

Do a google search for "Conconi test". Polar's software includes the procedure for this and
other tests.

I've never had much luck spotting the inflection point.

How many subjects have you tested?

That's because the test is garbage. Conconi manipulated his data in such a way to get a near perfect
correlation. Having read some 20 papers, including a review of all the validation studies, no one
can adequately repeat his study. Interestingly enough, Conconi has never had a problem repeating it.

A very good way is to ride a one 1 hr TT, flat out (a windtrainer works best to allow for
consistancy). You'll be riding at or near maximal lactate stedy state (MLSS) - the highest power
where blood lactate remains stable; MLSS is typically what most people think of as lactate
threshold. In comparison, LT can really be any number of points (eg, power at 1 mM, 2.5 mM, 4 mM).
Coyle defined LT as a 1 mM increase above baseline lactate.

Chris Harnish

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

warren said:

In article said:

Anyone have a good way to determine lactate threshold using a trainer and a heart monitor/cycle
computer like the polar 720i (without power measuring or blood lactate testing)? I've seen
protocols described for 'TTs' on the road, but curiously they never mention doing the same
thing on a trainer where external factors like wind, temperature, traffic, hills, etc can be
eliminated.

Do a google search for "Conconi test". Polar's software includes the procedure for this and
other tests.

I've never had much luck spotting the inflection point.

In article <[email hidden]>, chris

Quoted message said:

That's because the test is garbage. Conconi manipulated his data in such a way to get a near
perfect correlation. Having read some 20 papers, including a review of all the validation studies,
no one can adequately repeat his study. Interestingly enough, Conconi has never had a problem
repeating it.

A very good way is to ride a one 1 hr TT, flat out (a windtrainer works best to allow for
consistancy). You'll be riding at or near maximal lactate stedy state (MLSS) - the highest power
where blood lactate remains stable; MLSS is typically what most people think of as lactate
threshold. In comparison, LT can really be any number of points (eg, power at 1 mM, 2.5 mM, 4 mM).
Coyle defined LT as a 1 mM increase above baseline lactate.

I don't diasagree about the usefulness of a Conconi but the poster said he can't measure power so
all he has is something like a Conconi, or if he can bear to do a one hour TT on a wind trainer he
might get something useful.

-WG

Nick Burns said:

"Robert Chung" wrote

Quoted message said:

warren said:

Do a google search for "Conconi test". Polar's software includes the procedure for this and
other tests.

I've never had much luck spotting the inflection point.

How many subjects have you tested?

Me? None. But a couple of years ago my club got a discount from a local performance tester and a
bunch of us trooped on down to take Computrainer Conconi tests. (We also took Computrainer Wingate
tests, which I believe differ in protocol from real Wingates).

I looked at everyone's Conconi results and if the guy hadn't circled and labeled each inflection
point I think I wouldn't have been able to spot them in maybe a quarter of the cases, and would have
picked a slightly different point in maybe another quarter. In general, when looking at a
monotonically increasing function measured at only a handful of points and with some amount of
error, it isn't easy to pick out a significant change in slope.

BTW, I notice that some Conconi protocols call for graphing HR against speed, while others graph HR
against the cube of speed or against power: I would have thought this might influence the
identification of a change in slope, but I haven't seen a discussion of this. Also, while it's
popular to do Conconi tests indoors on a trainer, I've always wondered whether the HR response would
differ with room temperature or presence of a fan, and I note that not all trainers scale their
resistance the same way with speed.

warren said:

In article <[email hidden]>, chris

Quoted message said:

That's because the test is garbage. Conconi manipulated his data in such a way to get a near
perfect correlation. Having read some 20 papers, including a review of all the validation
studies, no one can adequately repeat his study. Interestingly enough, Conconi has never had a
problem repeating it.

A very good way is to ride a one 1 hr TT, flat out (a windtrainer works best to allow for
consistancy). You'll be riding at or near maximal lactate stedy state (MLSS) - the highest power
where blood lactate remains stable; MLSS is typically what most people think of as lactate
threshold. In comparison, LT can really be any number of points (eg, power at 1 mM, 2.5 mM, 4
mM). Coyle defined LT as a 1 mM increase above baseline lactate.

I don't diasagree about the usefulness of a Conconi but the poster said he can't measure power so
all he has is something like a Conconi, or if he can bear to do a one hour TT on a wind trainer he
might get something useful.

trg needs a way to convert trainer speed into power, sort of like is available here:
geocities.comtrainerpowerOpen ↗

I wish that page were a bit clearer about how the roller pressure was set, but it's interesting to
see how different trainers respond to speed changes.

I have a pretty good idea of where the line is for me in terms of max HR at which I can do an
hour on the trainer. If I work at 5bpm more, I can't sustain. Will the conconi give me more info
than this?

Thanks

"warren" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, chris

Quoted message said:

That's because the test is garbage. Conconi manipulated his data in such a way to get a near
perfect correlation. Having read some 20 papers, including a review of all the validation
studies, no one can adequately repeat his study. Interestingly enough, Conconi has never had a
problem repeating it.

A very good way is to ride a one 1 hr TT, flat out (a windtrainer works best to allow for
consistancy). You'll be riding at or near maximal lactate stedy state (MLSS) - the highest power
where blood lactate remains stable; MLSS is typically what most people think of as lactate
threshold. In comparison, LT can really be any number of points (eg, power at 1 mM, 2.5 mM, 4
mM). Coyle defined LT as a 1 mM increase above baseline lactate.

I don't diasagree about the usefulness of a Conconi but the poster said he can't measure power so
all he has is something like a Conconi, or if he can bear to do a one hour TT on a wind trainer he
might get something useful.

-WG

If he has HR he can still do it. I only mentioned power as an example.

CH

warren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, chris

Quoted message said:

That's because the test is garbage. Conconi manipulated his data in such a way to get a near
perfect correlation. Having read some 20 papers, including a review of all the validation
studies, no one can adequately repeat his study. Interestingly enough, Conconi has never had a
problem repeating it.

A very good way is to ride a one 1 hr TT, flat out (a windtrainer works best to allow for
consistancy). You'll be riding at or near maximal lactate stedy state (MLSS) - the highest power
where blood lactate remains stable; MLSS is typically what most people think of as lactate
threshold. In comparison, LT can really be any number of points (eg, power at 1 mM, 2.5 mM, 4
mM). Coyle defined LT as a 1 mM increase above baseline lactate.

I don't diasagree about the usefulness of a Conconi but the poster said he can't measure power so
all he has is something like a Conconi, or if he can bear to do a one hour TT on a wind trainer he
might get something useful.

-WG

trg said:

I have a pretty good idea of where the line is for me in terms of max HR at which I can do an
hour on the trainer. If I work at 5bpm more, I can't sustain. Will the conconi give me more info
than this?

That depends a little bit on what purpose you intended. If your general reason was simply to set up
training zones you're probably already in the right ballpark by using the info you have. In that
case, I wouldn't bother with a Conconi.

Are you already thinking about the trainer? The weather is still pretty nice.

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

trg said:

I have a pretty good idea of where the line is for me in terms of max HR at which I can do an
hour on the trainer. If I work at 5bpm more, I can't sustain. Will the conconi give me more info
than this?

That depends a little bit on what purpose you intended. If your general reason was simply to set
up training zones you're probably already in the right ballpark by using the info you have. In
that case, I wouldn't bother with a Conconi.

Are you already thinking about the trainer? The weather is still pretty nice.

Yeah, this WE and today were great.

I finally replaced my 10 year old basic HRM with one with all the bells and whistles. Just wanted to
be sure I'm getting the most out of it. Do you know a flat stretch of road around Paris where you
can do TT testing without stopping for lights, traffic, etc ? I don't and so figured the testing
would be done on my trainer.

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Anyone have a good way to determine lactate threshold using a trainer and

a

Quoted message said:

heart monitor/cycle computer like the polar 720i (without power measuring

or

Quoted message said:

blood lactate testing)? I've seen protocols described for 'TTs' on the

road,

Quoted message said:

but curiously they never mention doing the same thing on a trainer where external factors like
wind, temperature, traffic, hills, etc can be eliminated.

There really is no valid way of determining threshold using just a HR monitor. The best you could do
is determine the HR corresponding to your highest sustainable effort (for a given duration). One
approach would therefore to be to just strap on the HR monitor and do a TT on your trainer -
however, maintaining motivation and avoiding significant cardiovascular drift may be a problem.

Andy Coggan

"Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

warren said:

In article <[email hidden]>, trg <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Anyone have a good way to determine lactate threshold using a trainer and a heart
> monitor/cycle computer like the polar 720i (without power measuring or blood lactate
> testing)? I've seen protocols described

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 'TTs' on the road, but curiously they never mention doing the same thing on a trainer where
> external factors like wind, temperature, traffic, hills, etc can be eliminated.

Do a google search for "Conconi test". Polar's software includes the procedure for this and
other tests.

I've never had much luck spotting the inflection point.

How many subjects have you tested?

The lab at Colorado Springs has tested hundreds, if not thousands - they didn't have much success
spotting the deflection point either (search PubMed for the complete article). Even when they
could, it didn't necessarily correspond with any definable point on the blood lactate-exercise
intensity curve.

Andy Coggan

trg said:

Do you know a flat stretch of road around Paris where you can do TT testing without stopping for
lights, traffic, etc ? I don't and so figured the testing would be done on my trainer.

You could try the piste at the Bois de Vincennes. It's flatter, less-crowded, and the turns are a
bit wider than Longchamps.

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Anyone have a good way to determine lactate threshold using a trainer

and

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

heart monitor/cycle computer like the polar 720i (without power

measuring

Quoted message said:

or

Quoted message said:

blood lactate testing)? I've seen protocols described for 'TTs' on the

road,

Quoted message said:

but curiously they never mention doing the same thing on a trainer where external factors like
wind, temperature, traffic, hills, etc can be eliminated.

There really is no valid way of determining threshold using just a HR monitor. The best you could
do is determine the HR corresponding to your highest sustainable effort (for a given duration).
One approach would therefore to be to just strap on the HR monitor and do a TT on your trainer -
however, maintaining motivation and avoiding significant cardiovascular drift may be a problem.

Andy Coggan

Thanks, that's what I've done in the past and have gotten consistant results. In your experience,
how close does perceived effort correlate to blood lactate readings? Is there a correction factor
that should be used (ex add 4 bpm)?

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Just wanted to be sure I'm getting the most out of it. Do you know a flat stretch of road around
Paris where you can do TT testing without stopping for lights, traffic, etc ? I don't and so
figured the testing would be done on my trainer.

Le Peripherique?

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Just wanted to be sure I'm getting the most out of it. Do you know a flat stretch of road around
Paris where you can do TT testing without stopping for lights, traffic, etc ? I don't and so
figured the testing

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be done on my trainer.

Le Peripherique?

So obvious I didn't even think of it ;-)

BTW, there's a group that's working to have the entire Peripherique closed to hold a race! In
French- perifeerique.comindex.phpOpen ↗ In English-
perifeerique.comindex.phpOpen ↗

"The Périphérique Boulevard will have to be closed in the two circulating ways. The inner ring will
be dedicated to the races. The outer ring will allow spectators and supporters to follow the race in
the best conditions. There will be also walking, skating and cycling rides."

In my experience, indoor testing with ample fluids and a high power fan does a great job mitigating
CV drift. However, so good AC helps even more. I typically saw about a 3-5 beat increase over 1 hr.

Motivation is an issue, though, and HR in and of itself is not completely reliable, but I still
believe HR, speed and cadence (not to mention perceived exertion) taken together offers a good way
to monitor training, just not as good as power.

CH

Quoted message said:

There really is no valid way of determining threshold using just a HR monitor. The best you could
do is determine the HR corresponding to your highest sustainable effort (for a given duration).
One approach would therefore to be to just strap on the HR monitor and do a TT on your trainer -
however, maintaining motivation and avoiding significant cardiovascular drift may be a problem.

Andy Coggan

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Anyone have a good way to determine lactate threshold using a trainer

and

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

heart monitor/cycle computer like the polar 720i (without power

measuring

Quoted message said:

or

Quoted message said:

blood lactate testing)? I've seen protocols described for 'TTs' on the

road,

Quoted message said:

but curiously they never mention doing the same thing on a trainer

where

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

external factors like wind, temperature, traffic, hills, etc can be eliminated.

There really is no valid way of determining threshold using just a HR monitor. The best you
could do is determine the HR corresponding to your highest sustainable effort (for a given
duration). One approach would therefore to be to just strap on the HR monitor and do a TT on
your trainer - however, maintaining motivation and avoiding significant cardiovascular drift may
be a problem.

Andy Coggan

Thanks, that's what I've done in the past and have gotten consistant results. In your experience,
how close does perceived effort correlate to blood lactate readings? Is there a correction factor
that should be used

(ex

Quoted message said:

add 4 bpm)?

I'm not sure what you mean - are you asking "how much higher will my HR be when I race, vs. when I
just test (train)?" If so, then I'd say that the answer is "it depends" - but 4 beats/min would be
in the neighborhood.

Andy Coggan