direct drive freewheel

[email hidden] (Andrew Malizia) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello all,
I am trying to make a "green machine" like bigwheel. I am a little
bit too large for the new huffy ones. I am building the frame and
everything, but I have a little problem, The BIG WHEEL. I know the new
huffys use a freewheel with the pedals attached to the wheel, but I
cannot find anything close to this. The only thing I can do is use a
unicylce wheel, but thats fixed. So, basically, does anyone know of a
place I can get a freewheel from that can be mounted to a frame, and
have the pedals attached straight to the wheel. I have the rim, but is
there a hub that I can get commercially. I have talked to a few bike
shops here and they have had trouble helping me. Thanks

Andrew Malizia

So, in other words, the crank axle goes through the center of the
wheel, but allows you to freewheel.

I've never seen anything like that commercially available, but
something similar was used on Fred Tatch's Manuped (circa 1977?):
http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/Manuped/Manuped1.jpg
http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/Manuped/Manuped2.jpg

If you can make it up, Fred will probably be at the Human Power
Challenge this weekend in Portland:
http://www.ohpv.org/pir2004/index.htm . If not, email me privately- I
can put you in touch with Fred.

Jeff

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Jeff Wills) said:

[email hidden] (Andrew Malizia) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello all,
I am trying to make a "green machine" like bigwheel. I am a little
bit too large for the new huffy ones. I am building the frame and
everything, but I have a little problem, The BIG WHEEL. I know the new
huffys use a freewheel with the pedals attached to the wheel, but I
cannot find anything close to this. The only thing I can do is use a
unicylce wheel, but thats fixed. So, basically, does anyone know of a
place I can get a freewheel from that can be mounted to a frame, and
have the pedals attached straight to the wheel. I have the rim, but is
there a hub that I can get commercially. I have talked to a few bike
shops here and they have had trouble helping me. Thanks

Andrew Malizia

So, in other words, the crank axle goes through the center of the
wheel, but allows you to freewheel.

Believe it or not, Shimano made something like that long, long ago. It
was a component group where the chainrings turned with the rear wheel,
in order to make shifting while not pedalling possible.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

[email hidden] (Andrew Malizia) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello all,
I am trying to make a "green machine" like bigwheel. I am a little
bit too large for the new huffy ones. I am building the frame and
everything, but I have a little problem, The BIG WHEEL. I know the new
huffys use a freewheel with the pedals attached to the wheel, but I
cannot find anything close to this. The only thing I can do is use a
unicylce wheel, but thats fixed. So, basically, does anyone know of a
place I can get a freewheel from that can be mounted to a frame, and
have the pedals attached straight to the wheel. I have the rim, but is
there a hub that I can get commercially. I have talked to a few bike
shops here and they have had trouble helping me. Thanks

Andrew Malizia

This may not be much help but back in the early 70s Schwinn had a
bottom bracket that freewheeled. That is, if you pedal backwards the
chainrings didn't move. I can't remember what they called it. I have
one of those bikes myself. If you could find one perhaps you could
adapt that mechanism.

Tom

On 25 May 2004 12:18:33 -0700, [email hidden] (Andrew

Malizia) may have said:

Hello all,
I am trying to make a "green machine" like bigwheel. I am a little
bit too large for the new huffy ones. I am building the frame and
everything, but I have a little problem, The BIG WHEEL. I know the new
huffys use a freewheel with the pedals attached to the wheel, but I
cannot find anything close to this. The only thing I can do is use a
unicylce wheel, but thats fixed. So, basically, does anyone know of a
place I can get a freewheel from that can be mounted to a frame, and
have the pedals attached straight to the wheel. I have the rim, but is
there a hub that I can get commercially. I have talked to a few bike
shops here and they have had trouble helping me. Thanks

Perhaps you should step back and look at one of your basic assumptions
first. A "Big Wheel" tricycle with a wheel of a tractable size will
make a very slow-moving vehicle. Part of the reason why the original
bikes which used a direct-drive wheel were displaced by the present
design was that they had an inherent upper limit to their speed
capability owing to the driect drive itself and the limitations it
imposed due to the finite (and rather short, in this context) length
of the human leg. One rotation of a 36" wheel produces 113 inches of
forward motion. One rotation of the cranks on a bike that has a 26"
OD wheel and a 3.5:1 gear ratio produces 285 inches of forward motion.
At a cadence of 75rpm, a 36" wheel will only be running at 8
mph...which is not a useful speed for that much exertion. At 75rpm,
the other bike will be tooling along at 20mph.

There is a reason why the Big Wheel is made and sold exclusively for
children. It looks fast, but it's actually very slow, and its low CG
makes it very hard to upset, unlike a conventional erect trike. Only
the latter characteristic would have any chance of being considered an
advantage anywhere else. Even then, the practical disadvantages of a
low sightline, combined with the safety hazard of a low profile that
makes it hard for motor vehicle drivers to see you, would make this
sort of design suitable only for appropriate competitions...and in
those venues, the lack of a suitable crank-to-final-drive ratio would
make it noncompetitive.

Do some more research into basic HPV design issues and concepts. It
would be wise to learn from the mistakes and experiences of others
before setting out to make your own.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

... Even then, the practical disadvantages of a
low sightline, combined with the safety hazard of a low profile that
makes it hard for motor vehicle drivers to see you, would make this
sort of design suitable only for appropriate competitions...

Being low is not the horribly unsafe situation those who have never
extensively ridden a lowracer or trike on the public roads believe it is.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
<snip> >

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, in other words, the crank axle goes through the center of the
wheel, but allows you to freewheel.

Believe it or not, Shimano made something like that long, long ago. It
was a component group where the chainrings turned with the rear wheel,
in order to make shifting while not pedalling possible.

Dang it, you're right. The Shimano Front Freewheel System would be an
excellent basis for an adult "Big Wheel", gearing notwithstanding.

However, adult-size fun trikes are easily available- just not the
configuration that was described:
http://www.trailmate.com/funCycleSeries.cfm

Jeff

On Wed, 26 May 2004 23:32:28 -0500, Tom Sherman

may have said:

Werehatrack said:

... Even then, the practical disadvantages of a
low sightline, combined with the safety hazard of a low profile that
makes it hard for motor vehicle drivers to see you, would make this
sort of design suitable only for appropriate competitions...

Being low is not the horribly unsafe situation those who have never
extensively ridden a lowracer or trike on the public roads believe it is.

There's a fellow who used to ride a low 'bent to work on the other
side of Houston who would disagree, after an incident in which a
vehicle ran him down despite a pole flag. I haven't seen him since
the last time I visited his workplace in the early '90s, but I know he
switched to an upright bike for his commutes after that hit. It was
the fact that he couldn't see over the line of stopped vehicles to his
right as he came up the left turn lane which put him at risk; a jerk
turning left from the cross street nearly clipped the fender of the
car to his right, and went directly over the front of his bike,
dragging it another fifty feet before stopping. Had he been on an
erect bike, he'd have had enough visibility to see the idiot coming.
That's his analysis, not mine. He still liked 'bents, and still had
one, but didn't ride it in heavy traffic after the hit. I can't say
as I blame him for being cautious.

BTW, his daily commute was just over 3 miles; as he put it, too far to
walk in hot weather, not far enough to get the car's engine warmed
up...but the only viable route had lots of motor vehicle traffic. I
think he said he'd been riding to work for nearly a year when the
collision happened, and had seen a lot of near-miss situations in that
time. The rides I've taken on a friend's 'bent have convinced me to
stay with a conventional bike in city traffic. What isn't at a car
driver's eye level (and in some cases, anything that doesn't outweigh
their vehicle) doesn't seem to exist to some of them.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On 26 May 2004 21:59:55 -0700, [email hidden] (Jeff Wills) may

have said:

Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
<snip> >

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, in other words, the crank axle goes through the center of the
wheel, but allows you to freewheel.

Believe it or not, Shimano made something like that long, long ago. It
was a component group where the chainrings turned with the rear wheel,
in order to make shifting while not pedalling possible.

Dang it, you're right. The Shimano Front Freewheel System would be an
excellent basis for an adult "Big Wheel", gearing notwithstanding.

However, adult-size fun trikes are easily available- just not the
configuration that was described:
http://www.trailmate.com/funCycleSeries.cfm

Yup, not a single direct-drive in the bunch, but they look like they
could be interesting. Trikes still have the wide path problem,
though.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

design was that they had an inherent upper limit to their speed

....

Quoted message said:

of the human leg. One rotation of a 36" wheel produces 113 inches of
forward motion. One rotation of the cranks on a bike that has a 26"
OD wheel and a 3.5:1 gear ratio produces 285 inches of forward motion.
At a cadence of 75rpm, a 36" wheel will only be running at 8 mph

I've got the answer: Schlumpf. Or maybe something like a Sclhumpf
but made out of a Rohloff for more gears. Can a Rohloff (or a
Sturmey Archer 3-speed, if the OP hasn't got money to blow) take the
stress of doubling as a, er, well, not-quite-bottom-bracket? A
couple cottered cranks and he'd be all set...except maybe the
freewheeling issue.

Quoted message said:

There is a reason why the Big Wheel is made and sold exclusively for
children. It looks fast, but it's actually very slow, and its low CG
makes it very hard to upset, unlike a conventional erect trike

This is evil propoganda against FWD fixed direct drive recumbent
trikes, and I'll have none of it, damn you! <G>
--
Rick Onanian

(Andrew Malizia) said:

I am trying to make a "green machine" like bigwheel. I am a little
bit too large for the new huffy ones. I am building the frame and
everything, but I have a little problem, The BIG WHEEL. I know the new
huffys use a freewheel with the pedals attached to the wheel, but I
cannot find anything close to this. The only thing I can do is use a
unicylce wheel, but thats fixed. So, basically, does anyone know of a
place I can get a freewheel from that can be mounted to a frame, and
have the pedals attached straight to the wheel.

What you describe is apt to require some significant machining, but it
can be done.

You will probably have to make at least a hub shell. You should look
into using needle roller clutches or sprag clutches pressed into a hub
shell:

http://www.timken.com/industries/torrington/catalog/pdf/needle/dcupetal.pdf
http://www.renoldusa.com/renold/clutches/sprag/dm.html

They're not nearly strong enough to carry normal pedal torque if you
use an ordinary-sized spindle; it'll have to be bigger than normal.
BMX cranks with smooth 20mm spindles are commonly available, and there
was a crank by Solid that used a 1" spindle:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3679104263

You might get good results brazing a hard steel sleeve over the center
section of a splined spindle in order to increase its diameter. If
you decide to machine a spindle from scratch, pick a crank that uses a
simple spindle end (such as the Primo Powerbite that features
non-tapered square flats 19mm across on its 22mm spindle) to make the
interface easier to reverse-engineer.

http://www.danscomp.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cgi?action=DETAIL&item=451057

Using a stack of 4 or 5 needle clutch/bearings or 2 sprag clutches and
2 bearings inside a simple spool-shaped hub shell would probably do
the trick. The wheel would mount to the fork legs in unicycle
fashion. It's doubtful that a regular unicycle would work as a fork,
because your oversized spindle will require oversized bearings.

In my experience, you'll want to use as large a wheel as you can, for
decent rollout and acceptable speed. So-called "29 inch" (700c) MTB
tires provide a great option. On my Big Wheel, I use a Schwalbe Big
Apple 700x60 tire that measures almost 30" tall when inflated.

You'll also want to use short cranks. I use 127mm cranks on my Big
Wheel. This is at odds with cranks that use an oversized spindle,
since those almost always come in 175 or 180mm. If you use a solid
aluminum crank like the Primo, though, you can drill and tap pedal
threads partway up the crank arms, and cut off the excess. I have
done this to 185mm Primos to make 152mm cranks for a trials bike.
Shorter cranks should be even easier.

Good luck! Feel free to email me for more specific information.

Chalo Colina

Werehatrack said:

A "Big Wheel" tricycle with a wheel of a tractable size will
make a very slow-moving vehicle.

Yeah, so? You're only as slow as you feel. And you feel pretty fast
with your feet out front turning at 120rpm.

Quoted message said:

At a cadence of 75rpm, a 36" wheel will only be running at 8
mph...which is not a useful speed for that much exertion. At 75rpm,
the other bike will be tooling along at 20mph.

And at zero foot rpm in a Cadillac, you can be hauling along at 100
mph. That doesn't make a Caddy more fun than a bike, does it? A Big
Wheel is more fun than a bike, and slower, and used for a different
set of purposes.

Quoted message said:

There is a reason why the Big Wheel is made and sold exclusively for
children. It looks fast, but it's actually very slow, and its low CG
makes it very hard to upset, unlike a conventional erect trike.

Actually, it's because kids intuitively understand activities that are
fun and have no other purpose. And because Big Wheels are usually
made of molded plastic and can only support a lightweight compact size
human.

Quoted message said:

Even then, the practical disadvantages of a
low sightline, combined with the safety hazard of a low profile that
makes it hard for motor vehicle drivers to see you, would make this
sort of design suitable only for appropriate competitions...

Like this!: http://captain.obvious.home.att.net/photo/1190drags/_cat.html

http://bigwheelrally.home.att.net/

Quoted message said:

and in
those venues, the lack of a suitable crank-to-final-drive ratio would
make it noncompetitive.

Pish-tosh! That's what racing categories are for.

Quoted message said:

Do some more research into basic HPV design issues and concepts. It
would be wise to learn from the mistakes and experiences of others
before setting out to make your own.

My only mistake, if you could call it that, was making mine so big it
could serve an eight-footer in its outmost adjustment.

http://deadbabybikes.org/bikes/300x300k/bigwheel.jpg

This is V2.0 beta of my Big Wheel. It now sports a taller, slicker
tire in front, wider square-treaded wheels in back, and more robust
plastic pedals. Originally it had a steel unicycle frame adapted for
fork use, but the pedaling forces raked it out. I machined the fork
you see here from aluminum bars and CrMo steel rod. The legs are
tapered in thickness and hollowed out on the inward faces.

That's a Herman Miller Eames shell chair; a windfall to me in its
legless state.

Chalo Colina

On 27 May 2004 17:48:36 -0700, [email hidden] (Chalo) may

have said:

My only mistake, if you could call it that, was making mine so big it
could serve an eight-footer in its outmost adjustment.

http://deadbabybikes.org/bikes/300x300k/bigwheel.jpg

This is V2.0 beta of my Big Wheel. It now sports a taller, slicker
tire in front, wider square-treaded wheels in back, and more robust
plastic pedals. Originally it had a steel unicycle frame adapted for
fork use, but the pedaling forces raked it out. I machined the fork
you see here from aluminum bars and CrMo steel rod. The legs are
tapered in thickness and hollowed out on the inward faces.

That's a Herman Miller Eames shell chair; a windfall to me in its
legless state.

I must say, as usual, you do nice work, but how does the cat pedal it?

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

On 27 May 2004 17:48:36 -0700, [email hidden] (Chalo) may

have said:

http://deadbabybikes.org/bikes/300x300k/bigwheel.jpg

I must say, as usual, you do nice work, but how does the cat pedal it?

Cats don't do work. They command their humans to do the work for
them. We do as they say.

I'll post some pictures of kittens when I get around to posting some
pictures of my bikes over on rec.bicycles.misc.
--
Rick Onanian

Tom Sherman said:

Werehatrack said:

... Even then, the practical disadvantages of a
low sightline, combined with the safety hazard of a low profile that
makes it hard for motor vehicle drivers to see you, would make this
sort of design suitable only for appropriate competitions...

Being low is not the horribly unsafe situation those who have never
extensively ridden a lowracer or trike on the public roads believe it is.

I'll second that.

I have fewer close calls and less rudeness with my ass-on-the-ground
trike than on an ordinary. Drivers tend to give me a wide berth, and I
assume they consider me handicapped, or crazy, or both. Works for me.

--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR

Ted Bennett said:

Tom Sherman said:

Werehatrack said:

... Even then, the practical disadvantages of a
low sightline, combined with the safety hazard of a low profile that
makes it hard for motor vehicle drivers to see you, would make this
sort of design suitable only for appropriate competitions...

Being low is not the horribly unsafe situation those who have never
extensively ridden a lowracer or trike on the public roads believe it is.

I'll second that.

I have fewer close calls and less rudeness with my ass-on-the-ground
trike than on an ordinary. Drivers tend to give me a wide berth, and I
assume they consider me handicapped, or crazy, or both. Works for me.

Recumbent trike owners are crazy.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area
Blue Earth Cycles Dragonflyer 🙂

[email hidden] (Jeff Wills) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

So, in other words, the crank axle goes through the center of the
wheel, but allows you to freewheel.

I've never seen anything like that commercially available, but
something similar was used on Fred Tatch's Manuped (circa 1977?):
http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/Manuped/Manuped1.jpg
http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/Manuped/Manuped2.jpg

Actually, Fred didn't make it, but Gardner Martin (of Easy Racers) was
up and was riding an unusual (tough to be unusual at a recumbent
event!) hand-and-foot powered trike that featured a Manuped-like
drivetrain, with a Rohloff hub for shifting and an Aerospoke front
(powered) wheel. The crank axle went right through the center of the
wheel. Very, very interesting.

Keep looking at the www.ohpv.org website- we should have pictures up
real soon now.

Jeff

Andrew Malizia said:

Hello all, I am trying to make a "green machine" like bigwheel. I am a
little bit too large for the new huffy ones. I am building the frame and
everything, but I have a little problem, The BIG WHEEL. I know the new
huffys use a freewheel with the pedals attached to the wheel, but I
cannot find anything close to this. The only thing I can do is use a
unicylce wheel, but thats fixed. So, basically, does anyone know of a
place I can get a freewheel from that can be mounted to a frame, and
have the pedals attached straight to the wheel. I have the rim, but is
there a hub that I can get commercially. I have talked to a few bike
shops here and they have had trouble helping me. Thanks
Andrew Malizia

Hey Andrew, I have been looking to do the same thing, but I'm trying to
build a direct drive recumbent. The speed problem isn't an issue for me
as this will be for running short errands around town. I was tempted to
just try and build it with a unicycle hub but I'm rethinking that and I
thought about buying a replacement wheel and fork end parts from Huffy
and relace the hub to a larger wheel. I would then attach the new wheel
and parts to a unicyle fork. Anyway that is my current plan of attack.

--