Direct Link Between Prostaglandin E2 and Pain Intensity

The more intelligent way to deal with excess PGE2 is to let your body
do what comes naturally, that is, when you stop consuming dietary PUFAs
(except in trace amounts), your body makes what is called Mead acid,
and then you can no longer make PGE2 at all. Instead, your body makes
prostaglandins that are much more biochemically stable, and hence,
safer by a large order of magnitude. Someone who posts here (and
appears to have scientific credentials) has disagreed with me on the
ground that Mead acid is "too inert," presumably when compared to
arachidonic acid (which is used to make PGE2). I agree completely, but
that's not the point, which concerns the clinical implications.
Derivatives of arachidonic acid may be useful in emergency medicine,
when very potent substances are needed, but in normal, day-to-day
activities, the body does not need such potent and unstable substances.
There are many studies that support this claim, and there are hundreds
that implicate arachidonic acid in the cause of many "diseases,"
directly or throught the metabolites, especially PGE2 and LTB4.

Now you know what is going on, down to the molecular level. If you
choose to ignore it, you will only hurt yourself, because you cannot
play around with such biochemically potent substances on a regular
basis and think that you will not get one or another "chronic disease."
Fish oil is even worse (in the sense that omega 3s are generally
considerably more unstable than omega 6s), but it does disrupt
arachidonic acid metabolism (though there are some contradictory
reports about flax oil/linolenic acid), at least temporarily. It's
very similar to the effects of chemotherapy, and if you look at the
survival statistics of those who receive strong doses of chemo, you
know what a bad idea this is. Many suggest that fish oil "cures
cancer," when in fact the cancer cells can't even deal with the
biochemical activity generated by fish oil. If you eat this stuff,
realize that your MO is that "it takes a monster to kill a monster,"
and don't complain when the monster you thought was your friend decides
to take you down.

This is why NSAIDs can cause ulcers and COX-2s can cause heart attacks.
They down regulate prostaglandins and thromboxanes when they inhibit
COX-1 and they down regulate Prostaglandins and Prostacyclins when they
inhibit COX-2.

Picture the Imflamatory response pathways with the understanding that
there is only one way in and no way out. Then picture the COX-2
pathway being down regulated. The COX-1 pathway will have to up
regulate. It produces Prostaglandins and Thromboxanes. Prostaglandins
help preserve the stomach lining and thromboxanes regulate
vasoconstriction. An increase of prostaglandins results in up
regulation of the 5LOX pathway and excess Leukotrienes are produced
which causes more imflamation. The increase in Thromboxanes causes the
veins to constrict and decreases blood flow and the lungs ability to
use oxygen (Hypoxia). Which could result in a heart attack and is why
COX-2s are dangerous.

PGE2 is only a small part of the imfalmatory response if you look at it
from this perspective.

If you read the literature on the metabolites that come through COX-1
and 2, and do a little thinking, you have to ask, "how much is really
needed and how potent do these substances need to be?" It was obvious
to me that arachidonic acid (AA) is just too potent and biochemically
unstable to be necessary to do the work of COX-1, and if COX-2 isn't
working, you'd know it. If you get a cut, does it heal well? If so,
you're fine in the COX-2 context. After avoiding dietary PUFAs (except
in trace amounts) for about 3 years now, my cuts heal better than ever
and I don't have any stomach problems (which the current dogma suggests
I should have, since the AA metabolites coming though COX-1 should be
necessary to "protect" the gut). The point is that since I have Mead
acid in my body rather than AA the current dogma requires that I have
stomach problems and that my wounds don't heal. If anything, the
opposite is the case. In the absence of any truly scientific evidence
demonstrating that I am harming myself, and in light of the large body
of scientific literature that now links cancer and "chronic diseases"
to AA metabolites, there is no reason to discontinue my avoidance of
dietary PUFAs (in more than trace amounts) except because I am making
people whose careers were based upon the claim or whose businesses are
involved in selling "essential fatty acids" uncomfortable. Sorry,
that's just not good enough for me.

On 26 Aug 2005 17:47:04 -0700, "montygram" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If you read the literature on the metabolites that come through COX-1
and 2, and do a little thinking, you have to ask, "how much is really
needed and how potent do these substances need to be?" It was obvious
to me that arachidonic acid (AA) is just too potent and biochemically
unstable to be necessary to do the work of COX-1, and if COX-2 isn't
working, you'd know it. If you get a cut, does it heal well? If so,
you're fine in the COX-2 context. After avoiding dietary PUFAs (except
in trace amounts) for about 3 years now, my cuts heal better than ever
and I don't have any stomach problems (which the current dogma suggests
I should have, since the AA metabolites coming though COX-1 should be
necessary to "protect" the gut). The point is that since I have Mead
acid in my body rather than AA the current dogma requires that I have
stomach problems and that my wounds don't heal. If anything, the
opposite is the case. In the absence of any truly scientific evidence
demonstrating that I am harming myself, and in light of the large body
of scientific literature that now links cancer and "chronic diseases"
to AA metabolites, there is no reason to discontinue my avoidance of
dietary PUFAs (in more than trace amounts) except because I am making
people whose careers were based upon the claim or whose businesses are
involved in selling "essential fatty acids" uncomfortable. Sorry,
that's just not good enough for me.

Ah, now I get it!

1. Arachidonic acid is bad

2. Arachidonic acid is a PUFA

3. Therefore, all PUFA's are bad.

You are a genius, man!

You tell em montygram!

Mr. Cocky seems to enjoy demonstrating his ignorance. In posts you
started, I stated that an intelligent person would want Mead acid,
which is a PUFA the body produces on its own, if not overloaded with
omega 6 or 3 PUFAs (due to their stronger biochemical activity and
instability). If you want to talk science, fine, that is what this NG
is for, but don't misrepresent others. My posts are very clear. I
document and explain everything down to the molecular level, sometimes
even beyond that (for example, I've talked of how the periodic table
holds useful information to biochemical processes). In one recent
post, you cited some studies and explained exactly what was going on
there, scientifically (I can't speak of things like conflicts of
interest that might be involved, because I do not know those people).
That is all I can do for you. Now, if you want to go ahead and drink a
pint of fish oil each day, go ahead and see what happens to you.

On 27 Aug 2005 17:38:00 -0700, "montygram" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Mr. Cocky seems to enjoy demonstrating his ignorance. In posts you
started, I stated that an intelligent person would want Mead acid,
which is a PUFA the body produces on its own, if not overloaded with
omega 6 or 3 PUFAs (due to their stronger biochemical activity and
instability). If you want to talk science, fine, that is what this NG
is for, but don't misrepresent others. My posts are very clear. I
document and explain everything down to the molecular level, sometimes
even beyond that (for example, I've talked of how the periodic table
holds useful information to biochemical processes). In one recent
post, you cited some studies and explained exactly what was going on
there, scientifically (I can't speak of things like conflicts of
interest that might be involved, because I do not know those people).
That is all I can do for you.

You ignore *ALL* studies showing positive health effects from the
consumption of EPA/DHA fatty acids. That is what I see. In addition,
I'm unable to find any studies on PubMed documenting *ANY* particular
beneficts of mead acid. As such, there's nothing anyone can do for
you. You are a total and complete lost cause, probably due to a lack
of DHA in your brain.

montygram said:

Mr. Cocky seems to enjoy demonstrating his ignorance. In posts you
started, I stated that an intelligent person would want Mead acid,
which is a PUFA the body produces on its own, if not overloaded with
omega 6 or 3 PUFAs (due to their stronger biochemical activity and
instability).

COMMENT:

Actually, Mead acid is a poor-substitute w-9 PUFA which the body
produces in desperation when short of w-3/w-6 EFAs, and which cells in
culture produce in large quantity, just before they DIE of w-3 and w-6
deficiency. And ONLY then. The Mead acid doesn't save them (though w-6
and w-3 do, if you add it, following which the Mead acid goes away).
All this reminds me of several of the SOS systems the body uses to try
to repair skin with keratosis and scarring, when deficienct of vitamin
A, or B2. It's a stopgap measure, and ultimately it fails.

Quoted message said:

If you want to talk science, fine, that is what this NG
is for, but don't misrepresent others. My posts are very clear. I
document and explain everything down to the molecular level, sometimes
even beyond that (for example, I've talked of how the periodic table
holds useful information to biochemical processes).

COMMENT:
You ignore findings even at the cell level, in culture. Like this one,
which you'll find abundantly documented after a cursory medline search,
and which I've posted reference after ignored reference for you on,
before.

SBH