Disk Brakes vs. V Brakes??

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I tried a bike with hydraulic disk brakes (Hayes Sole V6) yesterday
for the first time, and would appreciate your input on my impressions:

- On the first bike I tried, it was not possible to block the wheel
with the disk brake. I checked and found that the disk was oily. On
another bike (same brake) I was able to get the wheel to block, but
with application of extreme force to the brake handle, MUCH more than
required by any V brake I ever tried.

Question: Are Hydraulic Brakes really weaker than V brakes, or was this
bike just assembled by monkeys?

- I noticed that the hydraulic disc brakes have a much 'spongier' feel
than the cable actuated V brakes. This I guess was related to the
hydraulic hose / brake line expanding under pressure, because it was ok
on the front brake (1/2 of the brake lever way until full braking), and
not acceptable no the rear brake (had to pull the brake lever almost up
to the handle bar to get full breaking power)

Question: Is this again a problem of monkey assembly (not enough
fluid?, air in the lines?, what else? ...), or cheap brake lines, or
both? And are there better brake lines that expand less than the stock
ones?
Or ARE hydraulic disc brakes just spongier? If yes, that much
spongier??

- After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that the
discs get noticeably warm, around 170F. Are there ever heating issues
with disc brakes on longer downhill segments? Seems a stupid question,
but they did get quite warm just by playing around on level ground for
about ten minutes.

Thanks a lot!

PS: All the monkey references are founded on an employee there telling
me that 'there are no electrical brakes' when I asked for differences
between hydraulic and cable actuated. When I asked her that about the
front fork maxing out, i.e. hitting the limit of it's travel hard, she
replied with 'many people like their forks soft'. (I found out how they
can be adjusted later.) When I showed her that the (later found to be
well oiled) disk didn't stop the bike, she said 'Oh. Eh? Uh?'
So monkeys or Neanderthals are definitely a possibility in that store.
But the bike is on sale, so I might still buy there. Uh. Uh. Uh. I

--

I haven't worked on any hydraulic bicycle disc brakes, but have
worked on many motorcycle ones and that sure sounds like there is some
air in the lines that needs to be bled out.

Smokey

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Quoted message said:

Hi,

I tried a bike with hydraulic disk brakes (Hayes Sole V6) yesterday
for the first time, and would appreciate your input on my impressions:

- On the first bike I tried, it was not possible to block the wheel
with the disk brake. I checked and found that the disk was oily. On
another bike (same brake) I was able to get the wheel to block, but
with application of extreme force to the brake handle, MUCH more than
required by any V brake I ever tried.

Question: Are Hydraulic Brakes really weaker than V brakes, or was this
bike just assembled by monkeys?

Number 2..rotors and pads must be free of any contamination.

Quoted message said:

- I noticed that the hydraulic disc brakes have a much 'spongier' feel
than the cable actuated V brakes. This I guess was related to the
hydraulic hose / brake line expanding under pressure, because it was ok
on the front brake (1/2 of the brake lever way until full braking), and
not acceptable no the rear brake (had to pull the brake lever almost up
to the handle bar to get full breaking power)

Question: Is this again a problem of monkey assembly (not enough
fluid?, air in the lines?, what else? ...), or cheap brake lines, or
both? And are there better brake lines that expand less than the stock
ones?
Or ARE hydraulic disc brakes just spongier? If yes, that much
spongier??

Brakes need to be bled. Lines don't flex or expand, poor setup.

Quoted message said:

- After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that the
discs get noticeably warm, around 170F. Are there ever heating issues
with disc brakes on longer downhill segments? Seems a stupid question,
but they did get quite warm just by playing around on level ground for
about ten minutes.

Temp no big deal.>

Quoted message said:

Thanks a lot!

PS: All the monkey references are founded on an employee there telling
me that 'there are no electrical brakes' when I asked for differences
between hydraulic and cable actuated. When I asked her that about the
front fork maxing out, i.e. hitting the limit of it's travel hard, she
replied with 'many people like their forks soft'. (I found out how they
can be adjusted later.) When I showed her that the (later found to be
well oiled) disk didn't stop the bike, she said 'Oh. Eh? Uh?'
So monkeys or Neanderthals are definitely a possibility in that store.
But the bike is on sale, so I might still buy there. Uh. Uh. Uh. I

Typical of bike shop, USA..peopled by the untrained. Think that if they
ride a bike, they know something about them(no electric brakes, that is
amazing that she would say such a thing. I guess she has not heard of
'mechanical' disc brakes)

Quoted message said:

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Quoted message said:

Hi,

I tried a bike with hydraulic disk brakes (Hayes Sole V6) yesterday
for the first time, and would appreciate your input on my impressions:

- On the first bike I tried, it was not possible to block the wheel
with the disk brake. I checked and found that the disk was oily. On
another bike (same brake) I was able to get the wheel to block, but
with application of extreme force to the brake handle, MUCH more than
required by any V brake I ever tried.

Question: Are Hydraulic Brakes really weaker than V brakes, or was this
bike just assembled by monkeys?

no, just assembled badly. hydraulic brakes are highly effective, more
so than rim brakes in off-road conditions.

Quoted message said:

- I noticed that the hydraulic disc brakes have a much 'spongier' feel
than the cable actuated V brakes. This I guess was related to the
hydraulic hose / brake line expanding under pressure, because it was ok
on the front brake (1/2 of the brake lever way until full braking), and
not acceptable no the rear brake (had to pull the brake lever almost up
to the handle bar to get full breaking power)

Question: Is this again a problem of monkey assembly (not enough
fluid?, air in the lines?, what else? ...), or cheap brake lines, or
both? And are there better brake lines that expand less than the stock
ones?
Or ARE hydraulic disc brakes just spongier? If yes, that much
spongier??

no, they're firm. sponginess means air in the line.

Quoted message said:

- After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that the
discs get noticeably warm, around 170F. Are there ever heating issues
with disc brakes on longer downhill segments? Seems a stupid question,
but they did get quite warm just by playing around on level ground for
about ten minutes.

they get warm because of the friction - that's what all brakes do.
you'll have no problem with heating issues on a disk braked bike - once
set up correctly, use with complete confidence.

Quoted message said:

Thanks a lot!

PS: All the monkey references are founded on an employee there telling
me that 'there are no electrical brakes' when I asked for differences
between hydraulic and cable actuated. When I asked her that about the
front fork maxing out, i.e. hitting the limit of it's travel hard, she
replied with 'many people like their forks soft'. (I found out how they
can be adjusted later.) When I showed her that the (later found to be
well oiled) disk didn't stop the bike, she said 'Oh. Eh? Uh?'
So monkeys or Neanderthals are definitely a possibility in that store.
But the bike is on sale, so I might still buy there. Uh. Uh. Uh. I

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Quoted message said:

When I showed her that the (later found to be
well oiled) disk didn't stop the bike, she said 'Oh. Eh? Uh?'
So monkeys or Neanderthals are definitely a possibility in that store.
But the bike is on sale, so I might still buy there. Uh. Uh. Uh. I

I would strongly suggest you _run_ from a shop that is trying to sell a bike
with oiled braking surfaces. What else have they mis-assembled?

If you have to pay someone to get the bike to work, you're going to lose any
money you would save from their "sale" price. If you can do all the work
yourself, you don't need answers from rec.bicycles.tech.

-Dion

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jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

Hi,

- After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that the
discs get noticeably warm, around 170F. Are there ever heating issues
with disc brakes on longer downhill segments? Seems a stupid question,
but they did get quite warm just by playing around on level ground for
about ten minutes.

they get warm because of the friction - that's what all brakes do.
you'll have no problem with heating issues on a disk braked bike - once
set up correctly, use with complete confidence.

Regarding the heating issue, I came across a couple on a tandem who had
a hydraulic disk brake in back, instead of a drag brake. They said
that on long downhills the brake heating transfers heat to the fluid,
the fluid expands and they end up with the brake applied without any
lever action. They have to stop and let the fluid cool.

A tandem drag brake and a downhill ATB are not the exact same situation
but both can expect to sometimes apply the brake for 20-30 minutes on a
very long downhill. Does this ever occur on an ATB?

Tom

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On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 00:04:56 -0600, Chris_MdR wrote:

If they're working properly, either brake should be able to lock the rear
wheel or send you over the handlebars. Disk brakes offer more precise
modulation and better performance in wet conditions, but their extra power
is really unnecessary because other kinds of brakes are more than powerful
enough. Most mountain bikes with decent forks and other equipment come
with disk brakes anyway, so that's what you'll get. Just make sure the
disks are clean and nothing is leaking, and you'll be fine. The same
applies to rim brakes, whether V-brakes, traditional cantilever, or caliper.

Matt O.

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I tried a bike with hydraulic disk brakes (Hayes Sole V6) yesterday
for the first time, and would appreciate your input on my impressions:

- On the first bike I tried, it was not possible to block the wheel
with the disk brake. I checked and found that the disk was oily. On
another bike (same brake) I was able to get the wheel to block, but
with application of extreme force to the brake handle, MUCH more than
required by any V brake I ever tried.

Question: Are Hydraulic Brakes really weaker than V brakes, or was this
bike just assembled by monkeys?

- I noticed that the hydraulic disc brakes have a much 'spongier' feel
than the cable actuated V brakes. This I guess was related to the
hydraulic hose / brake line expanding under pressure, because it was ok
on the front brake (1/2 of the brake lever way until full braking), and
not acceptable no the rear brake (had to pull the brake lever almost up
to the handle bar to get full breaking power)

Question: Is this again a problem of monkey assembly (not enough
fluid?, air in the lines?, what else? ...), or cheap brake lines, or
both? And are there better brake lines that expand less than the stock
ones?
Or ARE hydraulic disc brakes just spongier? If yes, that much
spongier??

- After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that the
discs get noticeably warm, around 170F. Are there ever heating issues
with disc brakes on longer downhill segments? Seems a stupid question,
but they did get quite warm just by playing around on level ground for
about ten minutes.

Thanks a lot!

PS: All the monkey references are founded on an employee there telling
me that 'there are no electrical brakes' when I asked for differences
between hydraulic and cable actuated. When I asked her that about the
front fork maxing out, i.e. hitting the limit of it's travel hard, she
replied with 'many people like their forks soft'. (I found out how they
can be adjusted later.) When I showed her that the (later found to be
well oiled) disk didn't stop the bike, she said 'Oh. Eh? Uh?'
So monkeys or Neanderthals are definitely a possibility in that store.
But the bike is on sale, so I might still buy there. Uh. Uh. Uh. I

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Quoted message said:

jim beam wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that
the
discs get noticeably warm, around 170F. Are there ever heating issues
with disc brakes on longer downhill segments? Seems a stupid
question, but they did get quite warm just by playing around on level
ground for about ten minutes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they get warm because of the friction - that's what all brakes do.
you'll have no problem with heating issues on a disk braked bike - once
set up correctly, use with complete confidence.

Quoted message said:

Regarding the heating issue, I came across a couple on a tandem who had
a hydraulic disk brake in back, instead of a drag brake. They said that
on long downhills the brake heating transfers heat to the fluid, the
fluid expands and they end up with the brake applied without any lever
action. They have to stop and let the fluid cool.

I'm not surprised. Tandems have double the weight and therefore double
the energy to be dissipated while braking. If the brake components are
not upgraded to compensate it's likely they'll overheat. There are
tandem-specific disks for this reason. But because it's a smaller
market they may not be as well-developed as single MTB brakes -- which
also had overheating problems in their early days.

Quoted message said:

A tandem drag brake and a downhill ATB are not the exact same situation
but both can expect to sometimes apply the brake for 20-30 minutes on a
very long downhill. Does this ever occur on an ATB?

Yes. As I said, overheating was common with the first generation of
MTB disks.

The best "disk" is your rim, but overheating it can cause tires to blow
off, which is the reason for drag brakes at the hub on tandems.

Matt O.

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Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

Hi,

- After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that the
discs get noticeably warm, around 170F. Are there ever heating issues
with disc brakes on longer downhill segments? Seems a stupid question,
but they did get quite warm just by playing around on level ground for
about ten minutes.

they get warm because of the friction - that's what all brakes do.
you'll have no problem with heating issues on a disk braked bike - once
set up correctly, use with complete confidence.

Regarding the heating issue, I came across a couple on a tandem who had
a hydraulic disk brake in back, instead of a drag brake. They said
that on long downhills the brake heating transfers heat to the fluid,
the fluid expands and they end up with the brake applied without any
lever action. They have to stop and let the fluid cool.

A tandem drag brake and a downhill ATB are not the exact same situation
but both can expect to sometimes apply the brake for 20-30 minutes on a
very long downhill. Does this ever occur on an ATB?

I've never had heat cause the brakes to apply through heat expansion.
What I do experience is dot4 brake fluid boiling (or the water in the
fluid boiling) and I loose all braking power. And I have to wait until
it cools before continuing down hill. On the same hill with v-brakes I
had a front tire blow because the rim got too hot.

My make of disk brake is not compatible with dot5 fluid, which if I
could use it, would help.

Here's a question, which action produces the most heat, keeping the
brakes on to control speed on a steep hill or letting the bike go and
then jamming on the brakes at the last second to kill the speed?
Laters,

Marz

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Marz said:

Here's a question, which action produces the most heat, keeping the
brakes on to control speed on a steep hill or letting the bike go and
then jamming on the brakes at the last second to kill the speed?

Believe it or not it's the latter. The amount of energy to be dissipated
is a product of the mass of bike and rider and the height of the hill,
which remains the same whether you go fast or slow. But at higher speeds
there's more airflow over the rims or brake disks, so more heat is
transferred to the air.

Matt O.

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Marz said:

Quoted message said:

Here's a question, which action produces the most heat, keeping the
brakes on to control speed on a steep hill or letting the bike go and
then jamming on the brakes at the last second to kill the speed?

The total energy transferred to the brake is higher if you drag the
brake all the way down because less is dissipated as aerodynamic and
rolling drag at the lower speed.

If you let your brakes off at the top of a steady incline, you'll
reach terminal velocity after dropping less than 100m (or about 160m
in the case of a cliff), and after that it doesn't matter how long you
keep dropping the total energy to dissipate in the brake to come to a
stop doesn't get any bigger because all the extra potential energy is
lost to the surroundings by the usual mechanisms

If you drag the brake to maintain your speed at about half your
terminal velocity, you're dumping about 75% of the potential energy
into the brake system. If your brake doesn't dump this heat to the
atmosphere quickly enough, this could actually lead to higher brake
surface temperature on a long slope than one hard stop from terminal
velocity.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Matt O'Toole said:

Disk brakes offer more precise
modulation and better performance in wet conditions, but their extra power
is really unnecessary because other kinds of brakes are more than powerful
enough.

There speaks a man who has never ridden in the rain :-)

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Per [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

A tandem drag brake and a downhill ATB are not the exact same situation
but both can expect to sometimes apply the brake for 20-30 minutes on a
very long downhill. Does this ever occur on an ATB?

I've had my front brake (Hope C2) lock up in that manner when descending a very
steep hill.

Somebody who knows can chime in, but my suspicion is that phenom is limited to
closed-system hydraulic brakes.

I also think it's aggravated by having fluid that needs changing bc after I bled
the brake, it stopped happening.
--
PeteCresswell

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In article
<[email hidden]>,

Marz said:

Here's a question, which action produces the most heat, keeping the
brakes on to control speed on a steep hill or letting the bike go and
then jamming on the brakes at the last second to kill the speed?
Laters,

Depends. If it is a fast road descent, you brake very
hard for a short time, then run up to speed again
whereupon the air flow cools the rim before much heat
gets to the tire. On a long slow descent, road or
trail, nothing works. You need to stop and let the
system cool.

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In Message-ID:<[email hidden]> posted on
Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:45:44 CST, (PeteCresswell) wrote: Begin

Quoted message said:

Per [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

A tandem drag brake and a downhill ATB are not the exact same situation
but both can expect to sometimes apply the brake for 20-30 minutes on a
very long downhill. Does this ever occur on an ATB?

I've had my front brake (Hope C2) lock up in that manner when descending a very
steep hill.

Somebody who knows can chime in, but my suspicion is that phenom is limited to
closed-system hydraulic brakes.

I also think it's aggravated by having fluid that needs changing bc after I bled
the brake, it stopped happening.

That might suggest bubbles
that expanded with prolonged application heating
causing the lockup
and would no longer be an issue after bleeding them out

You might think that those bubbles would tent to migrate upward toward
the hand lever and away from the source of heat however, unless there's
a slight leak at the connection to the hydraulic applicator and the
bubbles were forming there as you rode then subsequently heating before
their chance to float away.

--

Bart

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Marz said:

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> Hi,
>
> - After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that the
> discs get noticeably warm, around 170F. Are there ever heating issues
> with disc brakes on longer downhill segments? Seems a stupid question,
> but they did get quite warm just by playing around on level ground for
> about ten minutes.

they get warm because of the friction - that's what all brakes do.
you'll have no problem with heating issues on a disk braked bike - once
set up correctly, use with complete confidence.

Regarding the heating issue, I came across a couple on a tandem who had
a hydraulic disk brake in back, instead of a drag brake. They said
that on long downhills the brake heating transfers heat to the fluid,
the fluid expands and they end up with the brake applied without any
lever action. They have to stop and let the fluid cool.

A tandem drag brake and a downhill ATB are not the exact same situation
but both can expect to sometimes apply the brake for 20-30 minutes on a
very long downhill. Does this ever occur on an ATB?

I've never had heat cause the brakes to apply through heat expansion.
What I do experience is dot4 brake fluid boiling (or the water in the
fluid boiling) and I loose all braking power. And I have to wait until
it cools before continuing down hill. On the same hill with v-brakes I
had a front tire blow because the rim got too hot.

My make of disk brake is not compatible with dot5 fluid, which if I
could use it, would help.

Here's a question, which action produces the most heat, keeping the
brakes on to control speed on a steep hill or letting the bike go and
then jamming on the brakes at the last second to kill the speed?
Laters,

Marz

--
There is a higher temp grade of DOT fluid called DOT 5.1. Despite it's numerical designation, it IS NOT the same as DOT 5 fluid, it's a grade of DOT 4 developed specifically for high temp braking (wonder why they didn't call it 4.1?). Some of the motorcycle road racing teams are using it. Speaking of brake fluid, when I worked in a motorcycle shop, this was the second most neglected item of maintenance (changing the fluid). The most neglected was checking tire pressure.

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Quoted message said:

I'm not surprised. Tandems have double the weight and therefore double
the energy to be dissipated while braking.

It will be more than double - significantly more as the double weight
going downhill only experiences the air resistance of a single rider.
As any rider knows from experience, the heavier rider will descent
faster (handling aside) than a lighter rider.

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jlee said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not surprised. Tandems have double the weight and therefore double
the energy to be dissipated while braking.

Quoted message said:

It will be more than double - significantly more as the double weight
going downhill only experiences the air resistance of a single rider.

This is true.

Matt O.

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[email hidden] a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I tried a bike with hydraulic disk brakes (Hayes Sole V6) yesterday
for the first time, and would appreciate your input on my impressions:

- On the first bike I tried, it was not possible to block the wheel
with the disk brake. I checked and found that the disk was oily. On
another bike (same brake) I was able to get the wheel to block, but
with application of extreme force to the brake handle, MUCH more than
required by any V brake I ever tried.

Question: Are Hydraulic Brakes really weaker than V brakes, or was this
bike just assembled by monkeys?

- I noticed that the hydraulic disc brakes have a much 'spongier' feel
than the cable actuated V brakes. This I guess was related to the
hydraulic hose / brake line expanding under pressure, because it was ok
on the front brake (1/2 of the brake lever way until full braking), and
not acceptable no the rear brake (had to pull the brake lever almost up
to the handle bar to get full breaking power)

Question: Is this again a problem of monkey assembly (not enough
fluid?, air in the lines?, what else? ...), or cheap brake lines, or
both? And are there better brake lines that expand less than the stock
ones?
Or ARE hydraulic disc brakes just spongier? If yes, that much
spongier??

- After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that the
discs get noticeably warm, around 170F. Are there ever heating issues
with disc brakes on longer downhill segments? Seems a stupid question,
but they did get quite warm just by playing around on level ground for
about ten minutes.

Thanks a lot!

PS: All the monkey references are founded on an employee there telling
me that 'there are no electrical brakes' when I asked for differences
between hydraulic and cable actuated. When I asked her that about the
front fork maxing out, i.e. hitting the limit of it's travel hard, she
replied with 'many people like their forks soft'. (I found out how they
can be adjusted later.) When I showed her that the (later found to be
well oiled) disk didn't stop the bike, she said 'Oh. Eh? Uh?'
So monkeys or Neanderthals are definitely a possibility in that store.
But the bike is on sale, so I might still buy there. Uh. Uh. Uh. I

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the model that you use?

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Quoted message said:

Hi,

I tried a bike with hydraulic disk brakes (Hayes Sole V6) yesterday
for the first time, and would appreciate your input on my impressions:

- On the first bike I tried, it was not possible to block the wheel
with the disk brake. I checked and found that the disk was oily.

Well, that would explain it. BTW, a brake which locks the front wheel
when the bike is actually being ridden can be an unpleasant thing to
have. If you get one, I suspect that you will discover this at some
point.

Quoted message said:

On
another bike (same brake) I was able to get the wheel to block, but
with application of extreme force to the brake handle, MUCH more than
required by any V brake I ever tried.

Question: Are Hydraulic Brakes really weaker than V brakes, or was this
bike just assembled by monkeys?

In my experience, most v-brakes require far less finger pressure to
produce a given amount of stopping power than a disc brake.

Quoted message said:

- I noticed that the hydraulic disc brakes have a much 'spongier' feel
than the cable actuated V brakes. This I guess was related to the
hydraulic hose / brake line expanding under pressure, because it was ok
on the front brake (1/2 of the brake lever way until full braking), and
not acceptable no the rear brake (had to pull the brake lever almost up
to the handle bar to get full breaking power)

Cable-operated disc brakes often have similar results. This is not
unusual for disc brakes as a class of unit, but results vary wildly
between setups; it is foolish to infer anything about a specific
brake's probable operating characteristics on the basis of other
brands or models. The only way to reliably establish what a given
brake does is to try it and see.

Quoted message said:

Question: Is this again a problem of monkey assembly (not enough
fluid?, air in the lines?, what else? ...), or cheap brake lines, or
both? And are there better brake lines that expand less than the stock
ones?

To each: Possibly.

Quoted message said:

Or ARE hydraulic disc brakes just spongier? If yes, that much
spongier??

Any brake can be made to work poorly. Some can't be made to work
well. Each must be evaluated on its own merits.

Quoted message said:

- After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that the
discs get noticeably warm, around 170F.

Gosh, you had a contact thermometer available? I'm impressed.

Quoted message said:

Are there ever heating issues
with disc brakes on longer downhill segments? Seems a stupid question,
but they did get quite warm just by playing around on level ground for
about ten minutes.

Yes, it is possible to get disc brakes hot enough on a long descent
(especially with a heavy rider or on a steep grade) to discolor the
disc. Whether this is a problem depends on other factors that vary
from brake to brake.

Quoted message said:

PS: All the monkey references are founded on an employee there telling
me that 'there are no electrical brakes' when I asked for differences
between hydraulic and cable actuated.

Correct: there are no electric brakes. If you used the term "cable
actuated" they should have known you were talking about something that
was not electrically operated, how did you manage to get them to think
that an electrical connection was involved?

Quoted message said:

When I asked her that about the
front fork maxing out, i.e. hitting the limit of it's travel hard, she
replied with 'many people like their forks soft'. (I found out how they
can be adjusted later.)

What does this have to do with brakes?

Quoted message said:

When I showed her that the (later found to be
well oiled) disk didn't stop the bike, she said 'Oh. Eh? Uh?'

Oil contamination of disc brakes has been an issue with motorcycles as
well, for much longer. It happens. When the pads get oiled, you
generally have to replace them; if they're getting oiled by a leaking
fork, then you need a better fork. In the case of bicycles, the best
solution is often to go back to V-brakes, but not always.

Quoted message said:

So monkeys or Neanderthals are definitely a possibility in that store.
But the bike is on sale, so I might still buy there. Uh. Uh. Uh. I

I think I'd shop for something else.
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