disk vs. v/cantilever brakes

damyth said:

I've never ridden a bicycle with disk brakes. Do they really offer
significant advantages over v-brakes?

The good, non-cheap ones work well.

Quoted message said:

Are there any down sides to
using disk brakes (compared to v-brakes), like maintenance?

Pads are more expensive, and they're heavier.

Quoted message said:

I'm aware of the controversy of front disk brakes in current fork
designs, so here I'm specifically referring to rear brakes. Are there
any mass-produced forks that are disk safe?

Huh? Are you asking about forks or frames? Frames are all disc-ejection
immune. In terms of forks, as long as you attach a serrated-face skewer
with a gentle cam profile on an aluminum (not steel or ti) fork, and you
attach the QR *properly*, you'll be fine.

Quoted message said:

I also understand, generally speaking, hydraulic is better than
mechanical when it comes to disk brakes.

If it's well-sealed, hydros are low-maintenance, nearly drag-free, and
pleasureable to use. If they leak or absorb water, bleeding becomes an
issue. Mechanicals are just that: mechanical. Generally easy to fix if
something goes wrong, which is pretty rare. IME, both mechanical and
hydraulic systems work well, provided they both work as properly.

--
Phil

damyth said:

I've never ridden a bicycle with disk brakes. Do they really offer
significant advantages over v-brakes? Are there any down sides to
using disk brakes (compared to v-brakes), like maintenance?

The braking power of disk brakes is hugely superior to any other kind.
That said, if V-brakes or any other kind provide you with enough
stopping power, you might not value the difference. I'm 230lbs and the
difference is like night and day.

Quoted message said:

I'm aware of the controversy of front disk brakes in current fork
designs, so here I'm specifically referring to rear brakes. Are there
any mass-produced forks that are disk safe?

I was not aware of this problem. I think a properly mounted wheel would
be fine.

Quoted message said:

I also understand, generally speaking, hydraulic is better than
mechanical when it comes to disk brakes.

I've only used mechanical, so I don't know.

Joseph

damyth said:

I've never ridden a bicycle with disk brakes. Do they really offer
significant advantages over v-brakes?

Yes they do :
- Much more power while wet/muddy,
- More power at high speed,
- No heat dissipation in heat-sensitive tyre and tube.

Quoted message said:

Are there any down sides to
using disk brakes (compared to v-brakes), like maintenance?

Maintenance is not the same for hydros, but not more complicated than
the cable routing and pad aligning needed for vbrakes.
Pads cost more but have a longer life, makes no difference.

Imho the main downside is cost (yo have to add the cost of the brake
system and the cost of new wheels or at least new hubs and a rebuild)
when switching from vbrakes to discs.
A small downside is that it adds a bit of dish to the wheels, nothing
to be really afraid of...
It also adds a few grams to your bike, but only a few.
A last one is that some hydros may encounter power fading when heating
(depends on brake fluid among other factors), some do not at all.

Quoted message said:

I'm aware of the controversy of front disk brakes in current fork
designs, so here I'm specifically referring to rear brakes. Are there
any mass-produced forks that are disk safe?

As stated, the problems with discs and forks are generally a
combination of factors.
If you want something totally safe, go for a 20mm thru-axle - it will
also make your fork (much) stiffer.

Quoted message said:

I also understand, generally speaking, hydraulic is better than
mechanical when it comes to disk brakes.

Good mechanicals, ie with ball bearings (not much choice : AvidBB5/BB7
or Hayes MX1) are not a bad choice.
They have the upside to be totally insensitive to heating, whereas some
hydros may be (especially with old brake fluid).
They generally have the downside to be a bit less progressive (ie to
offer a less sensitive touch). It depends also on the lever and cable
housing used.

In article <[email hidden]>,

damyth () said:

I've never ridden a bicycle with disk brakes. Do they really offer
significant advantages over v-brakes? Are there any down sides to
using disk brakes (compared to v-brakes), like maintenance?

The ones I have - Hope and Magura hydraulics - work very well indeed,
and continue to do so even in the rain. This I find useful :-) The
Avid linear-pull brake on my fixer is anaemic in comparison.
Maintenance is pretty simple (ask me about that again on Monday
though..) for hydraulics and even more so for mechanicals.

Heavy urban or off-road use obviously chews the pads more than ordinary
road riding; I would typically get about 1500 km from the front Hope
Mini on the commuting bike, whereas those on the trike had plenty of
meat left after 8000. Except the outer one on the right wheel which,
for no readily-apparent reason, had worn out completely.

Quoted message said:

I'm aware of the controversy of front disk brakes in current fork
designs, so here I'm specifically referring to rear brakes. Are there
any mass-produced forks that are disk safe?

I've never had a problem on either of my conventionally-forked disc
braked machines, though bear in mind that these are used almost
exclusively ON-road. Just check the front q/r regularly and things
/should/ be OK

Quoted message said:

I also understand, generally speaking, hydraulic is better than
mechanical when it comes to disk brakes.

I've had a brief play with a bike equipped with Avid mechanicals and was
not terribly impressed. The general feel and modulation of hydraulics
is much nicer, IMHO, and when I am rich and famous, I shall rid the
fleet entirely of machines which are stopped by pulling a piece of
string. Does anyone do a nice carbon fork with disc brake tabs and
mudguard mounts?

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
The System is well pleased with this Unit's performance, which falls
within expected parameters.

damyth says...

Quoted message said:

I've never ridden a bicycle with disk brakes. Do they really offer
significant advantages over v-brakes? Are there any down sides to
using disk brakes (compared to v-brakes), like maintenance?

When v-brakes work well, they are fine, but discs offer some advantages.
I have a bike with v-brakes where the front howls like a banshee
intermittently. I haven't found an easy cure for this problem. Discs
will be somewhat heavier, even if you get expensive lightweight ones.
Discs generally offer more predictable and better modulated braking.
Discs aren't affected by a rim being out of true or other slight
variations in the rim surface. Rim brakes leave some of the pad rubber
on the rim which itself causes some issues. Discs are easier to replace
and generally cheaper than rims should wear of the braking surface
become an issue. Discs do require periodic recentering and adjustment,
but so do v-brakes.

Quoted message said:

I'm aware of the controversy of front disk brakes in current fork
designs, so here I'm specifically referring to rear brakes. Are there
any mass-produced forks that are disk safe?

The so called controversy is the product of one person's crusade. Last
I checked, he was the only person known to have had a disc brake wheel
ejection. For a variety of reasons, his was a very peculiar case. It
is almost impossible for it to happen unless the skewer is so loose that
the mechanical obstacle of the retention lips is bypassed. In that
case, you would lose your wheel anyway the first time it left the ground
going over a small bump.

Quoted message said:

I also understand, generally speaking, hydraulic is better than
mechanical when it comes to disk brakes.

Hydraulics are generally lighter, but better is debatable. One of the
best loved disc brakes out there is the Avid mechanical. Hydraulics are
more progressive, meaning that slight increases in lever pressure
produce proportionally much more braking power. This may be a curse or
a gift. If you aren't expecting it, progressive braking could send you
over the bars. Been there, done that. If they are progressive and not
"grabby", then once you get used to them, they have a very positive feel
and other brakes seem slow and mushy in comparison.

damyth said:

I've never ridden a bicycle with disk brakes. Do they really offer
significant advantages over v-brakes? Are there any down sides to
using disk brakes (compared to v-brakes), like maintenance?

I'm aware of the controversy of front disk brakes in current fork
designs, so here I'm specifically referring to rear brakes. Are there
any mass-produced forks that are disk safe?

I also understand, generally speaking, hydraulic is better than
mechanical when it comes to disk brakes.

Let's try to remember tha advantages of disc brakes...
-Great for wet, muddy conditions where the rim of the wheels get mucked
up
-Great in case you really wack a rim, you can still 'get out' and have
a brake

BUT they are expensive, complicated, require specific forks, frames and
hubs. When compared to V Brakes, and not in the conditions mentioned,
vbrakes are superior. BUT many still get them for coffee shop ponts
before the ride.

If ya gotta do them, hydraulic are the way to go but are a large step
above mechanical discs in terms of cost, complexity, service required,
fragility.

Quoted message said:

Yes they do :
- Much more power while wet/muddy,
- More power at high speed,
- No heat dissipation in heat-sensitive tyre and tube.

Good thread

What you think abt disk brakes on touring bikes?

damyth said:

I've never ridden a bicycle with disk brakes. Do they really offer
significant advantages over v-brakes?

if you ride in mud and rain, yes, definitely. better stopping, no fade,
and much longer pad life.

Quoted message said:

Are there any down sides to
using disk brakes (compared to v-brakes), like maintenance?

no, just as easy to set up.

Quoted message said:

I'm aware of the controversy of front disk brakes in current fork
designs, so here I'm specifically referring to rear brakes. Are there
any mass-produced forks that are disk safe?

anything with lawyer lips is safe. use a hub with serrated axle faces
and a closed cam skewer like shimano or campy if you're still worried.
don't get suckered in by any chicken little stories from people that
deliberately omit key elements from their math.

Quoted message said:

I also understand, generally speaking, hydraulic is better than
mechanical when it comes to disk brakes.

yes. much better modulation. once set up, trouble free to operate as
they self-adjust.

Quoted message said:

What you think abt disk brakes on touring bikes?

I just can not understand why they're not on *every* touring bike
costing more than a few hundred bucks ;o)))...
Especially for the "heat the tyre" issue.

Quoted message said:

The braking power of disk brakes is hugely superior to any other kind.
That said, if V-brakes or any other kind provide you with enough
stopping power, you might not value the difference. I'm 230lbs and the
difference is like night and day.

Don't paralelogram type v-brakes provide enough stoping power for you?

How about progressiveness? Critics of V-brakes accuse them of not
being so progressive as cantilevers or calipers. How do disk brakes
compare to v-brakes in this regard?

jbr

Quoted message said:

- No heat dissipation in heat-sensitive tyre and tube.

Why would that be a problem?? (Unless you're thinking of "agressive"
MBT riding.)

jbr

BigBen said:

Quoted message said:

The braking power of disk brakes is hugely superior to any other kind.
That said, if V-brakes or any other kind provide you with enough
stopping power, you might not value the difference. I'm 230lbs and the
difference is like night and day.

Don't paralelogram type v-brakes provide enough stoping power for you?

How about progressiveness? Critics of V-brakes accuse them of not
being so progressive as cantilevers or calipers. How do disk brakes
compare to v-brakes in this regard?

V-brakes, cantilevers and all other non-disks always required so much
pressure on the levers that any degree of progressiveness they may have
had was lost to my perception.

My caliper equipped road bike (which doesn't require the stopping power
of my MTB) doesn't seem to have any more or less progressive feel than
my Avid BB7 mechanical disks.

Any somewhat average weight person who doubts the significance of
weight to stopping power is invited to try a steep descent wearing a
backpack with 70lbs of rocks in it to see for themselves! ;-)

Joseph

BigBen said:

Quoted message said:

- No heat dissipation in heat-sensitive tyre and tube.

Why would that be a problem?? (Unless you're thinking of "agressive"
MBT riding.)

I have never gone touring with heavy bags, but I assume the fully laden
weight of a touring bike, rider, and all sorts of gear could easily be
more than 250lbs. With such a load, on long decents, keeping the speed
down can very easily raise the rim/tire/tube temperature to high enough
temperatures to cause problems.

Joseph

Quoted message said:

BigBen said:

Quoted message said:

The braking power of disk brakes is hugely superior to any other
kind. That said, if V-brakes or any other kind provide you with
enough stopping power, you might not value the difference. I'm
230lbs and the difference is like night and day.

Don't paralelogram type v-brakes provide enough stoping power for
you?

How about progressiveness? Critics of V-brakes accuse them of not
being so progressive as cantilevers or calipers. How do disk brakes
compare to v-brakes in this regard?

V-brakes, cantilevers and all other non-disks always required so much
pressure on the levers that any degree of progressiveness they may
have had was lost to my perception.

Then they're not set up properly. V-brakes, cantilevers, and caliper brakes
should all have similar stopping capability to discs if set up properly with
good brake pad material, cables, and housing. The feel (aka modulation) is
usually vastly different between rim and disc, however.

--
Phil

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

BigBen said:

On 7 Jun 2006 02:16:17 -0700, [email hidden] wrote:

> The braking power of disk brakes is hugely superior to any other
> kind. That said, if V-brakes or any other kind provide you with
> enough stopping power, you might not value the difference. I'm
> 230lbs and the difference is like night and day.

Don't paralelogram type v-brakes provide enough stoping power for
you?

How about progressiveness? Critics of V-brakes accuse them of not
being so progressive as cantilevers or calipers. How do disk brakes
compare to v-brakes in this regard?

V-brakes, cantilevers and all other non-disks always required so much
pressure on the levers that any degree of progressiveness they may
have had was lost to my perception.

Then they're not set up properly. V-brakes, cantilevers, and caliper brakes
should all have similar stopping capability to discs if set up properly with
good brake pad material, cables, and housing. The feel (aka modulation) is
usually vastly different between rim and disc, however.

It is possible that they were not set up properly, but I should have
qualified my comment: My poor experience is only in steep and/or grimy,
muddy conditions.

The stopping power seems limited to the area of the pad, and the force
with which the pad is squeezed. For both disks and other types.
Something about the mechanical advantage of the design of disk brakes
seems to me to allow greater force. I can sqeeze some non-disk levers
so it feels like the cable is about to break, and I don't get as good
braking as a mild squeeze on disks.

Joseph

On 6 Jun 2006 23:21:58 -0700, "damyth" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I've never ridden a bicycle with disk brakes. Do they really offer
significant advantages over v-brakes?

They don't cause the rims to wear out, they may work better in wet
conditions (this depends on the brakes being compared), and they can
get ridiculously hot on a long downhill run without causing the rim to
get overheated and produce a blowout.

Quoted message said:

Are there any down sides to
using disk brakes (compared to v-brakes), like maintenance?

Some of them are not easy to adjust, there is an ongoing concern about
the possibility that their presence may result in the front wheel
getting ejected from the fork in certain circumstances, and their cost
is generally higher (sometimes *much* higher) than V-brakes.

Quoted message said:

I'm aware of the controversy of front disk brakes in current fork
designs, so here I'm specifically referring to rear brakes.

There is very little reason to put a disc on the rear IMO, and doing
so generally forces the flanges closer together, reducing the lateral
bracing of the rear wheel. A disc brake in the rear requires extra
care on the part of the owner to ensure that chain lube does not
contaminate the brake pads or disc surface.

Quoted message said:

Are there
any mass-produced forks that are disk safe?

Other than clamped-axle downhill forks, not to my knowledge. The
caliper and fork designs would both have to be modified in order to
overcome the ejection issue, and thus far I have not seen any forks or
brakes made which put the caliper forward, except as the result of an
assembly error.

Quoted message said:

I also understand, generally speaking, hydraulic is better than
mechanical when it comes to disk brakes.

There are lots of cable-operated disc brakes that are more than
adequately effective. Merely making the control system hydraulic is
not a guarantee that it will work better than a good cable-operated
setup.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

BigBen said:

Quoted message said:

- No heat dissipation in heat-sensitive tyre and tube.

Why would that be a problem??

The first issue would be melting or at least damaging of light tubes
(arrived once for me with a light latex one, but - mea culpa - I didn't
put talcum in it, it may have contributed by tensioning the tube, and
it was a near-the-valve failure).

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

damyth said:

I've never ridden a bicycle with disk brakes. Do they really offer
significant advantages over v-brakes? Are there any down sides to
using disk brakes (compared to v-brakes), like maintenance?

I'm aware of the controversy of front disk brakes in current fork
designs, so here I'm specifically referring to rear brakes. Are
there any mass-produced forks that are disk safe?

I also understand, generally speaking, hydraulic is better than
mechanical when it comes to disk brakes.

Let's try to remember tha advantages of disc brakes...
-Great for wet, muddy conditions where the rim of the wheels get
mucked up
-Great in case you really wack a rim, you can still 'get out' and have
a brake

BUT they are expensive, complicated, require specific forks, frames
and hubs.

When it comes to $500+ mountain bikes, one will be hard pressed to find a
v-brake-compatible frame except on the very highest-end racing-specific
hardtail frames and entry-level dual-suspension frames. I have been having
this problem with some of my prospective frames and forks. For example, Fox
doesn't put v-brake mounts on anything but their pure XC forks. Specialized
have mostly done away with v-brakes on most bikes above the entry level
Stumpjumper FSR/Epic. Giant has done away with v-brakes on all their
hardtail MTBs above $370!!

--
Phil

Quoted message said:

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

BigBen wrote:
> On 7 Jun 2006 02:16:17 -0700, [email hidden] wrote:
>
>> The braking power of disk brakes is hugely superior to any other
>> kind. That said, if V-brakes or any other kind provide you with
>> enough stopping power, you might not value the difference. I'm
>> 230lbs and the difference is like night and day.
>
> Don't paralelogram type v-brakes provide enough stoping power for
> you?
>
> How about progressiveness? Critics of V-brakes accuse them of not
> being so progressive as cantilevers or calipers. How do disk brakes
> compare to v-brakes in this regard?
>

V-brakes, cantilevers and all other non-disks always required so
much pressure on the levers that any degree of progressiveness they
may have had was lost to my perception.

Then they're not set up properly. V-brakes, cantilevers, and
caliper brakes should all have similar stopping capability to discs
if set up properly with good brake pad material, cables, and
housing. The feel (aka modulation) is usually vastly different
between rim and disc, however.

It is possible that they were not set up properly, but I should have
qualified my comment: My poor experience is only in steep and/or
grimy, muddy conditions.

I'll agree with the steep part. The braking force increases more linearly
than exponentially with rim brakes. But I really haven't had problems with
muddy conditions. In fact, I find that they often work better once one hits
the mud: the mud cleans off the friction-reducing glaze on the rim. My
good-weather road bike tends to have poor braking compared to my
bad/all-weather commuter, even with 10-year old Shimano brake pads.

Quoted message said:

The stopping power seems limited to the area of the pad, and the force
with which the pad is squeezed. For both disks and other types.
Something about the mechanical advantage of the design of disk brakes
seems to me to allow greater force. I can sqeeze some non-disk levers
so it feels like the cable is about to break, and I don't get as good
braking as a mild squeeze on disks.

I know what you speak of, and IME, as long as you have good rim calipers,
cables, and housing, you can attain superior braking.

After re-reading what you wrote, I misread the progressiveness comment you
made, which is one I agree with. This is why I use discs on my trick bike
for its light touch and quick "I-need-all-the-power-I-can-get" ability.

--
Phil