Distance Run Blues

"R.Robinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am training for the Richmond marathon November 13.
Currently I run 40miles per week, I have been doing this
distance for three months now, as follows; tues-8-800meter
repeats @ 3:15 each Wens-3miles hills @ 8:00 per Mile Thurs-
8miles @7:45 per mile Friday-4miles @7:30 per mile Sat-
3Miles@7:30 per mile Sunday-alternate.18 miles with hills
two times a week at 9:50 pace Sunday alternate 25 miles,
(12.5 miles out and back) with 1.5% decline going, the
same incline going back @ 9:33 pace.

I have been running for about seven years but never at
these distances or times. This is my first marathon. I
just want to finish but a decent time would be nice
also. Say a sub 4. Just finished a form of chemo in
November and getting back to speed. Two questions:
1. I want to increase my mileage about 15 weeks before the
race. Is this enough time to prepare myself to become
accustomed to higher mileage?
2. At mile 23 I hit the wall hard. This is after
consuming three GU,

24oz

Quoted message said:

of Gatorade during the run. Should I consume a powerbar or
something like that to give me that last UMPH for about 3
miles? Or bring more gels?

My diet is strict 60% carbs, 25% protein, 15% fat. I start
out my long

runs

Quoted message said:

with a bagel, oatmeal and tea for breakfast about an hour
and a half

before

Quoted message said:

I run. Any help would be appreciated.

I am 47, 5'8" 158 8% body fat.

--

Why in the world are you doing 20+ mile training runs?!

{Why in the world are you doing 20+ mile training runs?! }

That is what I choose to do.......I enjoy pushing myself
physically..... Looking to run ultras soon......
UM....Because it's there...Because I do not want any
surprises at mile 23. What's wrong with 20+ training runs?
I just want to feel comfortable running 26.2 miles if that
is possible.

--
R.Robinson
[email hidden]

"R.Robinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

{Why in the world are you doing 20+ mile training runs?! }

That is what I choose to do.......I enjoy pushing myself
physically..... Looking to run ultras soon......
UM....Because it's there...Because I do not want any
surprises at mile 23. What's wrong with 20+ training runs?

I

Quoted message said:

just want to feel comfortable running 26.2 miles if that
is possible.

--
R.Robinson [email hidden]

Fine, enjoy yourself. Just know there is no need for 20+
mile runs in order to do a sub-4 hour marathon and it might
even be counterproductive.

{ Fine, enjoy yourself. Just know there is no need for 20+
mile runs in order to do a sub-4 hour marathon and it might
even be counterproductive.}

My thoughts were on nutrition and when to accelerate my
marathon training program.

You see so many schools of thought on long run
distances, 18 miles, no more than 20 miles, 25 miles, 30
miles and I have chosen what I feel would benefit me
most, according to my own experiences with distance. It
just seems the more I do, the easier it gets. Plus I run
my long runs at about a 30 second to minute per mile
slower than my race pace. When I first started five
miles about killed me at a 9:30 pace. Now I can run 8
miles at 8:0 minute per mile..no problem 1. Maybe my
school of thought is wrong and counter productive for
someone else, but it seems to work for me. Just one
school of thought. Training programs are like runners,
lots of them. Tell me yours and your times, basis for
thought and I will go from there.

coachbenson.com10 tips.rtfOpen ↗ "Tip # Eight Look at
the number of weeks left before the race. How many weeks did
you plan to taper from your last long run before the
marathon? If just two, please re-consider and see if you
can't squeeze in a full three week taper. Training for as
long as you probably have in the summer heat for the popular
fall marathons, or in winter conditions for Boston, you
almost assuredly will need longer to recover from the rigors
of your dedicated training than you realize. For example,
local runners here in Atlanta training for our Thanksgiving
Day marathon would look at something like this: Nov 7 - last
long run = 22 to 23 miles Nov 14 - recovery run = 13 to 15
miles Nov 21- taper run = 7 to 9 miles Nov 26- the whole
enchilada = 26.2 miles "

--
R.Robinson
rrockslide.....earthlink.net

"R.Robinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

{ Fine, enjoy yourself. Just know there is no need for 20+
mile runs in order to do a sub-4 hour marathon and it
might even be counterproductive.}

My thoughts were on nutrition and when to accelerate
my marathon training program.

You see so many schools of thought on long run
distances, 18 miles, no more than 20 miles, 25 miles,
30 miles and I have chosen what I feel would benefit
me most, according to my own experiences with
distance.

Ok, do your thing. George Sheehan said running is an
experiment of one.

"R.Robinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I am training for the Richmond marathon November 13.
Currently I run 40miles per week, I have been doing this
distance for three months now, as follows; tues-8-800meter
repeats @ 3:15 each Wens-3miles hills @ 8:00 per Mile Thurs-
8miles @7:45 per mile Friday-4miles @7:30 per mile Sat-
3Miles@7:30 per mile Sunday-alternate.18 miles with hills
two times a week at 9:50 pace Sunday alternate 25 miles,
(12.5 miles out and back) with 1.5% decline going, the
same incline going back @ 9:33 pace.

Since the marathon is 30 weeks ago, it would be hard to
suggest anything at this point. Most marathon training
programs aren't longer than 24 weeks. However, you can focus
in on reaching the starting point of some marathon program
by working on endurance and lactate threshold workouts. It
is a rare person that could maintain 18/25 mile weekly long
runs for that long. I think that adding a mid-week medium
distance run rather than going over a 2-hour run would make
more sense. Also instaed of the weekly 800 meter repeats, do
LT workouts such as 20 to 40 minutes at 15K to half marathon
race pace.

I suggest reading the book "Advanced Marathoning" by Pete
Pfitzinger and Scott Douglas. ISBN: 0736034315. It is very
good at explaining the physiological requirements of running
your best marathon. Half the battle of finishing a marathon
is making it to the starting line.

Quoted message said:

I have been running for about seven years but never at
these distances or times. This is my first marathon. I
just want to finish but a decent time would be nice
also. Say a sub 4. Just finished a form of chemo in
November and getting back to speed. Two questions:
1. I want to increase my mileage about 15 weeks before the
race. Is this enough time to prepare myself to become
accustomed to higher mileage? 2. At mile 23 I hit the
wall hard. This is after consuming three GU, 24oz of
Gatorade during the run. Should I consume a powerbar or
something like that to give me that last UMPH for about
3 miles? Or bring more gels?

My diet is strict 60% carbs, 25% protein, 15% fat.

Your daily protein requirements don't have a lot to do with
your total caloric requirements. It is more important to
figure your protein requirements based on your weight. There
is growing evidence that endurance athletes may need even
more protein than other athletes. 1.2 to 1.8 grams per
kilogram of bodyweight is a good range for protein. At your
current body weight of 158 pounds (72 kilograms). That would
be 86 to 130 grams of protein per day.

Phil M.

--
"Pain is temporary: the success it brings can be
everlasting." -fortune cookie

R:

I tried to run 27 miles a few weeks before my first marathon
on a base of 45 miles, and hit the wall, just like you did.

Quoted message said:

1. I want to increase my mileage about 15 weeks before the
race. Is this enough time to prepare myself to become
accustomed to higher mileage?

Short answer, yes.

Long answer: Increase your mileage when you aren't doing
stressful runs: no speed workouts or runs over 18 miles
while building up and getting used to mileage. Sit there for
4-6 weeks. Then gradually introduce speed and distance runs
starting 8-9 weeks before the race. I don't think you need
anything over 20 miles -- I ran many good marathons (2:37 -
2:50) with no more than a hilly 18 miler on most Sundays.

Quoted message said:

Sunday-alternate.18 miles with hills two times a week at
9:50 pace Sunday alternate 25 miles, (12.5 miles out and
back) with 1.5% decline going, the same incline going back
@ 9:33 pace.

You're hitting the wall because that 9:33 pace is too fast
for you during your training week. Don't worry, you'll be
stronger when you've tapered for your race.

If you *must* run 25 miles, slow it way down. I run ultras,
and only occasionally go over 22 miles in a single workout
(lots of mountains, though), and I run 80+ miles/week. Going
longer takes too much out of me. Save it for the race.

Quoted message said:

2. At mile 23 I hit the wall hard. This is after
consuming three GU,

24oz

Quoted message said:

of Gatorade during the run. Should I consume a powerbar or
something like that to give me that last UMPH for about 3
miles? Or bring more gels?

It's pace, not so much what you eat, in this case. When you
run through your muscle glycogen, the game is pretty much
over. Keep eating, but slow the pace down (10:00 or
slower), and mix it up with walking breaks. Also, I
typically drink 3+ quarts of powerade (much better than
Gatorade imo) on a 4 hour run. You aren't even drinking a
quart! You're dehydrating yourself, and impairing your
performance. Also, take a Succeed cap w/every 16 oz of
water to keep your sodium balance optimal on these 4+ hour
runs. When you get low on salt, the water you drink sloshes
around and isn't absorbed.

Quoted message said:

My diet is strict 60% carbs, 25% protein, 15% fat. I start
out my long

runs

Quoted message said:

with a bagel, oatmeal and tea for breakfast about an hour
and a half

before

Quoted message said:

I run. Any help would be appreciated.

I'd say eat what you crave...there's lots of research that
indicates that fat and protein are very important for
endurance athletes. I just read a study that seemed to
indicate more fat = more endurance! Consciously limiting fat
is a bad idea when you're training hard, assuming no
overriding health issues. Been there, done that, went back
to eating what I felt like.

-- Dan

Quoted message said:

I am training for the Richmond marathon November 13.

Seven months gives you a long time to prepare. Its
recommended you build up to 20+ mile long runs over 6-12
months, not start doing them right away. Increase the long
run one mile at a time, e.g. five months to go from 10 to 20
miles long run, every other week. Then your muscles and
blood sugar systems will gradually adjust.

Long runs are moderately helpful for a FIRST marathon, but
dont resemble race conditions. The best preparation for a
marathon will be to actually run one. The road surfaces, the
crowds, the support, will differ from any training run.
Thats why I dont recommend over-training for the first
marathon, since the race itself will be the best learning
experience.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

R.Robinson said:

I am training for the Richmond marathon November 13.
Currently I run 40miles per week, I have been doing this
distance for three months now, as follows; tues-8-800meter
repeats @ 3:15 each Wens-3miles hills @ 8:00 per Mile Thurs-
8miles @7:45 per mile Friday-4miles @7:30 per mile Sat-
3Miles@7:30 per mile Sunday-alternate.18 miles with hills
two times a week at 9:50 pace Sunday alternate 25 miles,
(12.5 miles out and back) with 1.5% decline going, the same
incline going back @ 9:33 pace.

The paces/miles seem rather inconsistent with eachother,
and with the 4 hour target time for marathon. For being a
long way out from the marathon, and targeting 4 hours
(9:10 pace), I'd expect something more like: Tue: 8x800 @
3:50 each, 3:00 recovery (approx 5k pace equivalent) Wed:
3 miles easy, 10:00 pace (i.e., _slower_ than your
marathon pace) Thu: 8 miles, rolling hills, 10:00 pace
Fri: 3 miles @ 8:30 pace (approx tempo pace for 4 hr
marathon), with half mile warm up and cool down at 10:00
Sat: 3 miles easy, 10:00 pace Sun: 'off week': Rolling 10-
12 miles at 10:00 pace 'on week' : race condition route,
13-18 miles, 10:30 pace

Since this doesn't quite total your 40 miles, nudge up the
distances through the rest of the week.

Note that this still gives you 2 workouts a week at faster
than race pace. Note too that if asked for a 40 mpw base
program for a pre-marathoner, I wouldn't have 800's in
there at all at this stage, and some other modifications.
I was just illustrating how I'd minimally modify what
you're already doing.

Quoted message said:

I have been running for about seven years but never at
these distances or times. This is my first marathon. I
just want to finish but a decent time would be nice
also. Say a sub 4. Just finished a form of chemo in
November and getting back to speed. Two questions:
1. I want to increase my mileage about 15 weeks before the
race. Is this enough time to prepare myself to become
accustomed to higher mileage?

Should be, given a reasonable ramp up.

Quoted message said:

2. At mile 23 I hit the wall hard. This is after consuming
three GU, 24oz of Gatorade during the run. Should I
consume a powerbar or something like that to give me
that last UMPH for about 3 miles? Or bring more gels?

Could be that you're starting too energy depleted. Could
also be that those are too many GU (don't use them myself)
or taken without enough water and they're just lying in a
lump in your gut rather than giving you energy. For a 4
hour goal, you're definitely running the 25 miler too
fast, which aggravates your energy problems.

--
Robert Grumbine radix.net~bobgOpen ↗ Science faqs and
amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo
Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less
appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a
more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Thanks to everyone for their input. It was very helpful. I
have been running for seven years but only at about 28 miles
per week before. But getting up into these higher mileages
requires more knowledge about the physical and nutritional
aspects of running. Thanks

--
R.Robinson