Does Mother Nature Really Know Best?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You should Google this site (I can't do links with WebTV).

It's almost hilarious.

A Readers Digest woman reporter (without identifying her
occupation) went to 25 different Naturopathic "doctors"
across Austrailia & this is her report.

I suspect the U. S. situation wouldn't be much different.

Most entertaining.

journalism.uts.edu.aunaturalOpen ↗
_therapies/patien tagainst.html

or

tinyurl.com2odyaOpen ↗

--Rich

Why can you not type in a URL with webTV? It is only text or
is there certain letters you cannot type?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:25528-404B5740-10@storefull-
3137.bay.webtv.net...

Quoted message said:

You should Google this site (I can't do links with WebTV).

It's almost hilarious.

A Readers Digest woman reporter (without identifying her
occupation) went to 25 different Naturopathic "doctors"
across Austrailia & this is her report.

I suspect the U. S. situation wouldn't be much different.

Quoted message said:

You should Google this site (I can't do links with WebTV).

Maybe you should get a real computer.

Just a suggestion.
--

Take out the G'RBAGE for private replies.
[email hidden]

[email hidden] wrote: [below this reply]

Any discussion as to inadequacies within "alt health" can
only be understood in the context of that which they are
"alternative" to.

And there, the actual physical harm arises, not excluding
death. And yes, this is my own personal and family
experience.

I would not have chosen for the discussion to lead in that
direction. It is the choice of the above poster. I assure
you, any such discussion will not be "hilarious".

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]... You
should Google this site (I can't do links with WebTV).

It's almost hilarious.

--
-------------------- newsreader.comnewsreader.comOpen ↗ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

Maybe "appalled" should have been a better choice of words?

Can you imagine all those people those 25 "Naturopathic
Doctors" see very day who are NOT investigative reporters?

I have a sister-in-law in Los Angeles who's been going to
Naturopathic Doctors for years. The current (& her last one)
just touch the tips of her fingers & then tell her what
additional supplements she needs.. Naturally, they also sell
them , though she has gotten a little (monetarily) smarter &
now buys them by mail order. A good idea since she's
currently takes over 20 pills daily.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote: [below this reply]

Any discussion as to inadequacies within "alt health" can
only be understood in the context of that which they are
"alternative" to.

I see your logic. If doctors practising in a much more
complex and dangerous environment can make serious mistakes,
and don't always practice to a high standard, and some of
their treatments for serious or disabling illnesses can have
serious side effects, then it is quite OK for naturopathic
medicine to be ridiculous.

I suggest it is only OK when they are treating patients for
conditions that don't exist with methods that don't do
anything much, as is amply demonstrated here.

The only thing that makes naturopathic and other alt
medicine safe, to the extent that it is safe, is that there
are proper doctors doing diagnostic work on exactly the same
folk (nearly all those who use alt also use normal doctors)
and who are constantly weeding out and accepting
responsibility for treating the more seriously ill in the
same population of individuals. Naturopaths and other alt
practitioners NEVER acknowledge the extent to which they are
practicising in a very highly selected and protected
environment. They never even have to get out of bed in the
middle of the night.

They also have the luxury of not having to take
responsibility for anything they do. It was a naturopath, I
think, that got away with missing a diagnosis leading to
death because naturopaths are not regarded as having the
expertise needed to make such diagnoses.

Peter Moran

The vast majority of healthcare is just making people
feel good - you can get that from mainstream or the other
side. Anth

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:594-404B83E6-372@storefull-
3136.bay.webtv.net...

Quoted message said:

Maybe "appalled" should have been a better choice of
words?

Can you imagine all those people those 25 "Naturopathic
Doctors" see very day who are NOT investigative reporters?

I have a sister-in-law in Los Angeles who's been going to
Naturopathic Doctors for years. The current (& her last
one) just touch the tips of her fingers & then tell her
what additional supplements she needs.. Naturally, they
also sell them , though she has gotten a little
(monetarily) smarter & now buys them by mail order. A good
idea since she's currently takes over 20 pills daily.

Anth said:

The vast majority of healthcare is just making people
feel good - you can get that from mainstream or the other
side. Anth

sci.med.cannabis

agrees with your assertion.
--
WB

"I can dance on the head of a pin as well"
-Yoshimo

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You should Google this site (I can't do links with WebTV).

===========================
Which site? You didn't include an URL.

Kim

Peter Moran said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040307145920.562$ag_-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote: [below this reply]

Any discussion as to inadequacies within "alt health"
can only be understood in the context of that which they
are "alternative" to.

I see your logic. If doctors practising in a much more
complex and dangerous environment can make serious
mistakes, and don't always practice to a high standard,
and some of their treatments for serious or disabling
illnesses can have serious side effects, then it is quite
OK for naturopathic medicine to be ridiculous.

No, that is not what I was saying. Rather, that if one
"system" (although it is most certainly not a cohesive
system) is to be ridiculed, then the question needs to be
asked as to how and why the situation arose.

Quoted message said:

I suggest it is only OK when they are treating patients
for conditions that don't exist with methods that don't do
anything much, as is amply demonstrated here.

If you were citing a study to that effect, then it could be
worth considering. Heresay, via a magazine article, is
hardly "ample demonstration". Or if it is, there are many
such which paint an entirely different picture.

Quoted message said:

The only thing that makes naturopathic and other alt
medicine safe, to the extent that it is safe, is that
there are proper doctors doing diagnostic work on exactly
the same folk (nearly all those who use alt also use
normal doctors) and who are constantly weeding out and
accepting responsibility for treating the more seriously
ill in the same population of individuals.

I agree that where there is a possibility that the person
seeking specific "alt" health advice is actually presenting
with symptoms of a more serious illness, then a certified
medical diagnosis should be the place to begin.

And also, that for serious, critical and advanced conditions
which are treatable, then the person should be referred to a
physician in the first instance. (However the choice to
follow through with such treatment, in most cases, remains
the right and responsibility of the patient.)

I also agree that the presence of the Medical System, with
its professional standards of care and accountability, does
"take the weight" from NDs and others, allowing them to work
in a much lighter environment than would be the case if
there were no Med System.

Conversely, however, some of the cases that NDs pick up and
work with are casualties from weaknesses within that system.

Quoted message said:

Naturopaths and other alt practitioners NEVER acknowledge
the extent to which they are practicising in a very highly
selected and protected environment.

You might be surprised if you went around your own home
town, for example, and talked to some of them - to those who
were fully trained, qualified and registered Naturopathic
Practitioners, Herbalists, or practitioners within TCM. If
you were to discuss the matter with them, I think that at
least some would agree with you.

Quoted message said:

They never even have to get out of bed in the middle of
the night.

Not exactly true. Some do remain on call when needed. And in
cases such as home-birth midwives, they may have to schedule
their own "sleeping hours" just to catch up when they can.

Quoted message said:

They also have the luxury of not having to take
responsibility for anything they do. It was a naturopath,
I think, that got away with missing a diagnosis leading to
death because naturopaths are not regarded as having the
expertise needed to make such diagnoses.

If we are talking avoiding responsibility, then I would ask,
what are your thoughts regarding the nurses who lost their
jobs and in some cases their career when trying to speak out
against ongoing abuses within Sutherland (?) Hospital in
Sydney not too long ago?

--
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Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

In article <[email hidden]>,

Anth said:

The vast majority of healthcare is just making people feel
good - you can get that from mainstream or the other side.

That's quite true -- and it's one reason that so many alt
practitioners "get results." There are so many people who
just want to be listened to, including the "worried well."

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:594-404B83E6-372@storefull-
3136.bay.webtv.net...

Quoted message said:

Maybe "appalled" should have been a better choice
of words?

Can you imagine all those people those 25 "Naturopathic
Doctors" see very day who are NOT investigative
reporters?

I have a sister-in-law in Los Angeles who's been going
to Naturopathic Doctors for years. The current (& her
last one) just touch the tips of her fingers & then
tell her what additional supplements she needs..
Naturally, they also sell them , though she has gotten
a little (monetarily) smarter & now buys them by mail
order. A good idea since she's currently takes over 20
pills daily.

It's not all harmless. Several years ago, that same sister-in-
law's husband went into a diabetic coma at work within a
week after her (now former) Naturopathic Doctor strongly
recommended weaning him off of insulin & onto a high volume
vitamin/supplement regimen (he had been on insulin for
almost 60 years since a youngster with that never once
happening).

Unfortunately, in the ambulance ride to the hospital, he
also suffered a stroke. Though the (medical) doctors pulled
him through & he came back to a certain extent for a year
with much rehabilitation, his health eventually deteriorated
& he was bedridden for the last 2 years of his life.

I should mention that immediately prior to this incident &
even with this serious- though-controllable condition, he
worked full-time (as a technical writer), rode his bike
back & forth to work every day (almost 20 miles total) for
years, & in the two previous summers biked from Los Angeles
to San Francisco & back just for a lark...& the guy was 68
years old! So he was living with his diabetes rather well
at that point.

I've since learned that it isn't all that unusual for
naturopathic practitioners to try to get diabetics off
insulin & onto "natural" remedies. Although I don't know the
current status of this particular case, there was a
Naturopathic Doctor criminally charged in either North or
South Carolina in the death of a diabetic young girl for
doing just that.

Sounds like a quack to me. why would a ND bother to
interfere with a long term solution unless this patient
wanted off real badly.

Just like the chem/cut doctors, 50% of them graduated at the
bottom half of their class.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:25525-404BA7B2-374@storefull-
3137.bay.webtv.net...

Quoted message said:

It's not all harmless. Several years ago, that same sister-in-
law's husband went into a diabetic coma at work within a
week after her (now former) Naturopathic Doctor strongly
recommended weaning him off of insulin & onto a high
volume vitamin/supplement regimen (he had been on insulin
for almost 60 years since a youngster with that never once
happening).

Unfortunately, in the ambulance ride to the hospital, he
also suffered a stroke. Though the (medical) doctors
pulled him through & he came back to a certain extent for
a year with much rehabilitation, his health eventually
deteriorated & he was bedridden for the last 2 years of
his life.

I should mention that immediately prior to this incident &
even with this serious- though-controllable condition, he
worked full-time (as a technical writer), rode his bike
back & forth to work every day (almost 20 miles total) for
years, & in the two previous summers biked from Los
Angeles to San Francisco & back just for a lark...& the
guy was 68 years old! So he was living with his diabetes
rather well at that point.

I've since learned that it isn't all that unusual for
naturopathic practitioners to try to get diabetics off
insulin & onto "natural" remedies. Although I don't know
the current status of this particular case, there was a
Naturopathic Doctor criminally charged in either North or
South Carolina in the death of a diabetic young girl for
doing just that.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You should Google this site (I can't do links with WebTV).

It's almost hilarious.

A Readers Digest woman reporter (without identifying her
occupation) went to 25 different Naturopathic "doctors"
across Austrailia & this is her report.

I suspect the U. S. situation wouldn't be much different.

Must like your mind -- blank

Geeez. Funny how the chem/cut doctors don't seem to go to
prison for the 10,000 deaths from transfusion errors per
year in the USA. The other 100,000 mdical errors causing
deaths are unheard of too..

A Naturopath makes an error (it was stated as manslaughter)
and lookee what happens.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:25525-404BC7E8-394@storefull-
3137.bay.webtv.net...

Quoted message said:

Update on the Naturopath, Laurence Perry.

He was convicted (involuntary manslaughter) in the death
of "Rosie", an 8 year old diabetic girl (died Oct. 1999)
last spring. He received a 12 to 15 month prison term.
Particulars are in the Ashville, NC on-line newspaper.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Moran said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040307145920.562$ag_-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote: [below this reply]

Any discussion as to inadequacies within "alt health"
can only be understood in the context of that which
they are "alternative" to.

I see your logic. If doctors practising in a much more
complex and dangerous environment can make serious
mistakes, and don't always practice to a high standard,
and some of their treatments for serious

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

disabling illnesses can have serious side effects, then
it is quite OK for naturopathic medicine to be
ridiculous.

No, that is not what I was saying. Rather, that if one
"system" (although it is most certainly not a cohesive
system) is to be ridiculed, then the question needs to be
asked as to how and why the situation arose.

Many factors feed into that, including unrealistic
expectations of medical care, ubiquitous hype, and the fact
that health care consumption always reaches out to consume
the supply regardless of efficacy (health economists say).
Since patients who use alternative medicine also use
doctors, and mostly express satisfaction with their medical
care in surveys, the implication that it is all due to the
failings of conventional medicine is false. Some is.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suggest it is only OK when they are treating patients
for conditions that don't exist with methods that don't
do anything much, as is amply demonstrated here.

If you were citing a study to that effect, then it could
be worth considering. Heresay, via a magazine article, is
hardly "ample demonstration". Or if it is, there are many
such which paint an entirely different picture.

She may be exagerating littel, but it is in accord with my
own experience. We see the work of "alternative"
pracititioners too, you know.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The only thing that makes naturopathic and other alt
medicine safe, to the extent that it is safe, is that
there are proper doctors doing diagnostic work on
exactly the same folk (nearly all those who use alt
also use normal doctors) and who are constantly weeding
out and

accepting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

responsibility for treating the more seriously ill in
the same

population

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of individuals.

I agree that where there is a possibility that the person
seeking specific "alt" health advice is actually
presenting with symptoms of a more serious illness, then a
certified medical diagnosis should be the place to begin.

And also, that for serious, critical and advanced
conditions which are treatable, then the person should be
referred to a physician in the first instance. (However
the choice to follow through with such treatment, in most
cases, remains the right and responsibility of the
patient.)

Agreed, although it is frustrating to see so much that
is dubious, unproven or utter nonsense influencing such
decisions. It seems every week or so I hear of someone
rejecting sound medical advice in favour of Hulda
Clark's nonsense.

Quoted message said:

I also agree that the presence of the Medical System,
with its

professional

Quoted message said:

standards of care and accountability, does "take the
weight" from NDs and others, allowing them to work in a
much lighter environment than would be the case if there
were no Med System.

Conversely, however, some of the cases that NDs pick up
and work with are casualties from weaknesses within
that system.

Quoted message said:

Naturopaths and other alt practitioners NEVER
acknowledge the extent to which they are practicising in
a very highly selected and protected environment.

You might be surprised if you went around your own home
town, for example, and talked to some of them - to those
who were fully trained, qualified and registered
Naturopathic Practitioners, Herbalists, or practitioners
within TCM. If you were to discuss the matter with them, I
think that at least some would agree with you.

I am sure you are right. We tend to be a little
overinfluenced by more the extreme views that dominate the
Internet and chat scene.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They never even have to get out of bed in the middle of
the night.

Not exactly true. Some do remain on call when needed. And
in cases such as home-birth midwives, they may have to
schedule their own "sleeping hours" just to catch up when
they can.

Quoted message said:

They also have the luxury of not having to take
responsibility for anything they do. It was a
naturopath, I think, that got away with missing a
diagnosis leading to death because naturopaths are not

regarded

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as having the expertise needed to make such diagnoses.

If we are talking avoiding responsibility, then I would
ask, what are your thoughts regarding the nurses who lost
their jobs and in some cases their career when trying to
speak out against ongoing abuses within Sutherland (?)
Hospital in Sydney not too long ago?

I was not talking about avoiding responsibility. I was
talking about practicing medicine without having to assume
full responsibility for outcomes.

Regards

Peter Moran

(Jan) said:

I was treated for mercury poisoning from amalgams and I am
alive and well. That is what is demonstrated here.

Oh really. Well I will post Jan's history in her OWN WORDS
and allow the readers to decide whether this pathologic liar
had mercury poisoning from amalgams. Don't mind Jan. She is
obsessed with the delusion that she almost died from mercury
poisoning due to her amalgams even though her history
suggests otherwise. Her history is as follows: (Note: Jan
has accused me of lying about it but when repeatedly asked
about what I lied about she remains silent).

The facts according to Jan Drew:

1) She was diagnosed with peripheral neuropathy

2) She was put on Elavil and Neurontin which Jan reports
significantly improved her symptoms

3) She was told by her MD that they did not know what
caused her peripheral neuropathy

4) For a year Jan searched for a reason for her PN

5) She discovered a possible cause for her PN after reading
a book by Hulda Clark author of A Cure For All Cancers
(Hulda believes that ALL cancer is caused by a liver
fluke and that she can cure all cancers by a combination
of a "zapper" and a course of herbs/supplements and
proper nutrition)

6) Jan became convinced after doing research that she
indeed likely had mercury poisoning from the amalgams.

7) Jan noticed a rapid and progressive deterioration in
her health that resulted in her believing that she was
going to die.

8) On June 17, 1999 Jan had a quarter of her amalgams
removed by Dr. Frank Jerome, author of Tooth Truth. Dr.
Frank, dentist believes that mercury amalgams cause a
wide variety of health problems and much of his practice
involves removing amalgams and replacing them with
composites, a procedure that Jan Drew underwent.

Quoted message said:

On June 17, 1999 Jan posted to usenet:

Quoted message said:

I have peripheral neuropathy, and have been searching for
a cause for over a year. I have read Hulda Clark's books
where she mentions the mercury problem. I am only 35 miles
from the dentist who sh is speaking with in her book. Dr.
Frank Jerome, who has written "Tooth Truth", a very
enlightening book. I had my first appointment today and
1/4 of my mouth is now mercury free. I go back tomorrow to
get another 1/4 done. Later, I will get my only root canal
pulled. I truly beleive this is the cause of my problems.
If you have a condition that the doctors can't find, it is
wise to suspect the teeth.

Thanks Again,

Jan

9) On June 18, 1999 had more of her amalgams removed and
reported on usenet ON THE VERY SAME DAY that she had the
amalgams removed within HOURS of their removal that she
felt better than she had in TWO YEARS!!

Quoted message said:

Here are her exact words posted on June 18th, 1999 to
usenet

Quoted message said:

I have been reading this thread. I have peripheral
neuropathy. I have found a dentist (alternative) who knows
that mercury amalgams are very dangerous. They can cause
all manner of things. He will remove them and put in
composities. I have just had 3/4 of mine remover. The
others will come out in a few weeks, along with the one
root canal, which will be extracted. If an individual has
read on this subject and is knowledgable, he will take
care of you. He has written "Tooth Truth and tells it like
it is. He tells how the ADA has covered up this problem.
So, it is just a matter of finding the right dentist. He
has people flying in from all over to get the work done. I
believe the mercury is the cause of my problems. I hav
felt better today that I have in the last 2 years, and am
looking forward to getting the rest of the mercury out and
the root canal pulled. Jan

10) When Jan was asked how she could feel better than she
had in two years she said that it was because she felt
relief that ALL the amalgams had been removed and that
her bill was paid off. This was clearly a LIE since Jan
still had some amalgams left and according to her would
not have them out for another few weeks.

Here are her exact words:

Quoted message said:

Rich for the LAST time, I said I felt better than I had
in two years. That was very true. I had been very very
ill and my health was deteriorating fast. After much
reading and research I was convinced it was my teeth. I
wasn't absolutely positivity 100% sure, but it all fit
together and I knew I had to do something. It wasn't
easy, what if it didn't work? That was very stressful.
Finally all the work was done, the metal was out, the
bill was paid, I didn't have to sit in the dentist chairs
for hours with a rubber dam in my mouth!!!!!!!!!! Of
course I was very relieved. A big big burden was lifted.
That makes one FEEL BETTER.

What's so hard to understand?

11) Jan posted on sci.med.dentisty that she knew that it was
the amalgams that were causing her health problem
because she began to regain her health AFTER her mercury
began to drop. This is also a complete lie since she
experience this improvement, better than she had felt in
two years, within hours of having some of the amalgams
removed and NOT when she had them all removed which she
claims above.

12) Jan claims that I told some lies when I provided the
above history.

13) Repeated attempts to ask Jan Drew what lies I told
result in her refusing to answer and instead diverting
the topic by personal insults and belittling.

AFAIK the above is true and is based upon Jan Drew's own
account of her history.

Discussion (OPINION):

The most likely explanation IMO for Jan Drew's improvement
to the point where she felt better than she had in two years
(which btw is VERY significant since she reports and rapid
decline in health in the months prior to the removal of the
amalgams) are psychologic factors.

I believe that the deterioration in her health was largely
due to her worrying and obsessing about her being poisoned
by mercury due to buying into the idea that the amalgams
were causing her health problems. I also believe that the
improvement in her health was largely due to her relief that
she finally was getting rid of what she believed was causing
her problem. IOW I believe that Jan Drew is an excellent
example of the power of placebo and that her history is
consistent with psychologic factors affecting physical
illness although I recommend competent health professional
to evaluate her for a more definitive opinion.

I have no doubt that her mercury level is declining. After
all she had all her amalgams removed. The question is
whether at the highest level was the mercury level causing
any significant health problems for Jan Drew. Jan certainly
believes that it was. Her history, IMO, strongly suggests
otherwise.

I predict that Jan will respond to this post in one of the
following:

14)She will ignore it and put me in her kill file
15) She will snip most of what I say and accuse me of lying
without specifically saying what I lied about
16) She will divert from the topic by accusing me of various
things including but not limited to a)hiking in the nude
b) using her parents to belittle her, c)being obsessed
with her, d) calling me a Jew-boy, pervert or some other
creative insult from Jan "it is NEVER right to belittle"
Drew. Perhaps she will wish some disability on me.

What she will NOT do is

17) Discuss the subject in a reasonable fashion
18) Point out any lies that she continues to accuse me of

What she will likely end up doing is violating two of the
Ten Commandments:

19) Thou shalt not lie (she does this when she accuses me of
lying with respect to her history as I provided it WITH
direct citations from Jan)

20) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
(again doing this by accusing me of various things such
as lying and/or stalking).

And finally if you have unanswered health problems my
suggestion is to NOT take the advice of Jan Drew. And if you
are foolish enough to listen to her please don't say that I
did not warn you.

Aloha,

Rich

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance

Peter Moran said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> Any discussion as to inadequacies within "alt
> health" can only be understood in the context of
> that which they are "alternative" to.

I see your logic. If doctors practising in a much more
complex and dangerous environment can make serious
mistakes, and don't always practice to a high
standard, and some of their treatments for serious or
disabling illnesses can have serious side effects,
then it is quite OK for naturopathic medicine to be
ridiculous.

No, that is not what I was saying. Rather, that if one
"system" (although it is most certainly not a cohesive
system) is to be ridiculed, then the question needs to
be asked as to how and why the situation arose.

Many factors feed into that, including unrealistic
expectations of medical care, ubiquitous hype, and the
fact that health care consumption always reaches out to
consume the supply regardless of efficacy (health
economists say). Since patients who use alternative
medicine also use doctors, and mostly express satisfaction
with their medical care in surveys, the implication that
it is all due to the failings of conventional medicine is
false. Some is.

I had not intended to make such implication. What I am
saying is that in order to understand the c.a.m "system"
(that word doesn't suit) - that it needs to be understood
within the entire health context, which includes the general
Med system. And also, within the context of the way that it
(am/cam) has grown into what it is now, over the last 20+
years or so.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suggest it is only OK when they are treating
patients for conditions that don't exist with methods
that don't do anything much, as is amply demonstrated
here.

If you were citing a study to that effect, then it could
be worth considering. Heresay, via a magazine article,
is hardly "ample demonstration". Or if it is, there are
many such which paint an entirely different picture.

She may be exagerating littel, but it is in accord with my
own experience. We see the work of "alternative"
pracititioners too, you know.

If you ever, in some moment of unforgivable weakness,
should hope to understand the alt health phenomenon a
little better, then you will need to learn to place
such experiences _within the context of the entire
health system_.

As long as you separate them off in their own mind and view
them as a single unit, all deserving of scorn or contempt to
varying extents, then that puts an unnecessary block in the
way to understanding either individuals who turn to such
methods, or the situation in which they exist.

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The only thing that makes naturopathic and other alt
medicine safe, to the extent that it is safe, is that
there are proper doctors doing diagnostic work on
exactly the same folk (nearly all those who use alt
also use normal doctors) and who are constantly
weeding out and accepting responsibility for treating
the more seriously ill in the same population of
individuals.

I agree that where there is a possibility that the
person seeking specific "alt" health advice is actually
presenting with symptoms of a more serious illness, then
a certified medical diagnosis should be the place to
begin.

And also, that for serious, critical and advanced
conditions which are treatable, then the person should
be referred to a physician in the first instance.
(However the choice to follow through with such
treatment, in most cases, remains the right and
responsibility of the patient.)

Agreed, although it is frustrating to see so much that is
dubious, unproven or utter nonsense influencing such
decisions. It seems every week or so I hear of someone
rejecting sound medical advice in favour of Hulda Clark's
nonsense.

In 'real life'?

or on the 'Net?

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I also agree that the presence of the Medical System,
with its professional standards of care and
accountability, does "take the weight" from NDs and
others, allowing them to work in a much lighter
environment than would be the case if there were no Med
System.

Conversely, however, some of the cases that NDs pick up
and work with are casualties from weaknesses within that
system.

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Naturopaths and other alt practitioners NEVER
acknowledge the extent to which they are practicising
in a very highly selected and protected environment.

You might be surprised if you went around your own home
town, for example, and talked to some of them - to those
who were fully trained, qualified and registered
Naturopathic Practitioners, Herbalists, or practitioners
within TCM. If you were to discuss the matter with them,
I think that at least some would agree with you.

I am sure you are right. We tend to be a little
overinfluenced by more the extreme views that dominate the
Internet and chat scene.

I am totally serious. It could be an enriching experience
to actually interact i.r.l with alt practitioners, or at
least, to discuss some of the questions and issues with
those people within the Med System, doctors or nurses, who
are already including aspects of alt treatments in their
own approach.

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They never even have to get out of bed in the middle
of the night.

Not exactly true. Some do remain on call when needed.
And in cases such as home-birth midwives, they may have
to schedule their own "sleeping hours" just to catch up
when they can.

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They also have the luxury of not having to take
responsibility for anything they do. It was a
naturopath, I think, that got away with missing a
diagnosis leading to death because naturopaths are not
regarded as having the expertise needed to make such
diagnoses.

If we are talking avoiding responsibility, then I would
ask, what are your thoughts regarding the nurses who
lost their jobs and in some cases their career when
trying to speak out against ongoing abuses within
Sutherland (?) Hospital in Sydney not too long ago?

I was not talking about avoiding responsibility. I was
talking about practicing medicine without having to assume
full responsibility for outcomes.

You call kinesiology, for example, "practicing medicine"?

I had thought that the referred-to hospital-nurses case
illustrates that if there are those within the system who
wish to avoid assuming full responsibility (or any
responsibility) then they will find a way to do so.

As well, I think it is more difficult for an alt
practitioner to avoid accountability in a certain sense, as,
they have to build their own credibility. If a GP loses a
few patients, it can all be explained, one way or another.
If treatment by an alt were to result in a few severe
reactions, let alone a death, in any small town that I know
of, - they would probably lose everyone. (imo)

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"WB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

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You should Google this site (I can't do links with
WebTV).

Maybe you should get a real computer.

Just a suggestion.

Regardless, this article is just far out....

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_therapies/patientagainst.html