Drive shaft

Dieter Britz said:

A colleague at work tells me that there was a bike parked here that
had a drive shaft instead of a chain. I know they use them on motor
bikes, but how effective are these on bicycles? I imagine there have
to be two right angle turns of the power applied, losing a bit at
each turn.
What is the story?

Seems to come round as a technical solution from time to time.

We've had "zero" range of shaft driven bikes in the UK for a while, and
there is a regular one in the work bike shed. Review here which seems fair:

http://www.velovision.com/mag/issue10/shaftdrive.pdf

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Dieter Britz said:

A colleague at work tells me that there was a bike parked here that
had a drive shaft instead of a chain. I know they use them on motor
bikes, but how effective are these on bicycles? I imagine there have
to be two right angle turns of the power applied, losing a bit at
each turn.

It isn't frictional losses that present a problem, but rather the
demand for light weight while transmitting high torque. The torque is
about as high as a motorcycle but the size and weight of the gears is
about 1/10.

Quoted message said:

What is the story?

If this worked reliably, you would see many more of them in use,
connected to an internal hub gear. They are fragile and the drive
shaft is in effect a torsion spring between pedal and wheel.

It's a nice idea, but impractical.

Jobst Brandt

A couple of URL's:

http://www.sussex.com.tw/se2.htm

http://www.showandgo.com.au/ebikes/shaft.htm?shaft_bf.htm~mainFrame

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Dieter Britz said:

A colleague at work tells me that there was a bike parked here that
had a drive shaft instead of a chain. I know they use them on motor
bikes, but how effective are these on bicycles? I imagine there have
to be two right angle turns of the power applied, losing a bit at
each turn.

It isn't frictional losses that present a problem, but rather the
demand for light weight while transmitting high torque. The torque is
about as high as a motorcycle but the size and weight of the gears is
about 1/10.

Quoted message said:

What is the story?

If this worked reliably, you would see many more of them in use,
connected to an internal hub gear. They are fragile and the drive
shaft is in effect a torsion spring between pedal and wheel.

It's a nice idea, but impractical.

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

We've been through this before:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/160fdec69cb96c03/22caf64dfefd5c10?lnk=gst&q=carl+major+taylor&rnum=1#22caf64dfefd5c10

Have you found some links to pictures of this fragility and
unreliability?

Any reports of Major Taylor's shaft-drive bike failing while he was
winning races?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

A couple of URL's:

http://www.sussex.com.tw/se2.htm

http://www.showandgo.com.au/ebikes/shaft.htm?shaft_bf.htm~mainFrame

Another Australian site, this bike with a Sram S7 hub:
http://tinyurl.com/sfrfv

John

Dieter Britz said:

A colleague at work tells me that there was a bike parked here that
had a drive shaft instead of a chain. I know they use them on motor
bikes, but how effective are these on bicycles? I imagine there have
to be two right angle turns of the power applied, losing a bit at
each turn.
What is the story?

Aren't most motorbikes (motorcycles) still belt drive or chain drive?

catzz66 said:

Dieter Britz said:

A colleague at work tells me that there was a bike parked here that
had a drive shaft instead of a chain. I know they use them on motor
bikes, but how effective are these on bicycles? I imagine there have
to be two right angle turns of the power applied, losing a bit at
each turn.
What is the story?

Aren't most motorbikes (motorcycles) still belt drive or chain drive?

Dear C,

Almost all off-road motorcycles still use chains.

Over the last 30 years, the trend in street motorcycles is toward
shaft drive.

Google for motorcycle (to weed out ATVs), names like Honda, Yamaha,
Kawasaki, and Suzuki, and shaft drive.

For example:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=motorcycle+yamaha+%22shaft+drive%22&btnG=Search

In contrast, a bicycle with a shaft drive is a curiosity piece, which
is why we like to squabble about them on RBT.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

catzz66 said:

Dieter Britz said:

A colleague at work tells me that there was a bike parked here that
had a drive shaft instead of a chain. I know they use them on motor
bikes, but how effective are these on bicycles? I imagine there have
to be two right angle turns of the power applied, losing a bit at
each turn.
What is the story?

Aren't most motorbikes (motorcycles) still belt drive or chain drive?

Dear C,

Almost all off-road motorcycles still use chains.

Over the last 30 years, the trend in street motorcycles is toward
shaft drive.

Google for motorcycle (to weed out ATVs), names like Honda, Yamaha,
Kawasaki, and Suzuki, and shaft drive.

For example:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=motorcycle+yamaha+%22shaft+drive%22&btnG=Search

In contrast, a bicycle with a shaft drive is a curiosity piece, which
is why we like to squabble about them on RBT.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Carl,

A cursory check shows that the majority of *current* bikes out there are
indeed still shaft and chain driven. This includes virtually all sportbikes
and all non-military Harleys. BMW, among others, stands out as the main
user of shaft drives in addition to more distance-oriented bikes for less
maintenance, and current larger-bore cruisers.

--
Phil

In article <[email hidden]>,

Philip Lee said:

Quoted message said:

catzz66 said:

Dieter Britz wrote:
> A colleague at work tells me that there was a bike parked here that
> had a drive shaft instead of a chain. I know they use them on motor
> bikes, but how effective are these on bicycles? I imagine there have
> to be two right angle turns of the power applied, losing a bit at
> each turn.
> What is the story?

Aren't most motorbikes (motorcycles) still belt drive or chain drive?

Dear C,

Almost all off-road motorcycles still use chains.

Over the last 30 years, the trend in street motorcycles is toward
shaft drive.

Google for motorcycle (to weed out ATVs), names like Honda, Yamaha,
Kawasaki, and Suzuki, and shaft drive.

For example:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=motorcycle+yamaha+%22sha
ft+drive%22&btnG=Search

In contrast, a bicycle with a shaft drive is a curiosity piece, which
is why we like to squabble about them on RBT.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Carl,

A cursory check shows that the majority of *current* bikes out there are
indeed still shaft and chain driven. This includes virtually all sportbikes
and all non-military Harleys. BMW, among others, stands out as the main
user of shaft drives in addition to more distance-oriented bikes for less
maintenance, and current larger-bore cruisers.

Harley-Davidson uses belt drive on all their current models, wacky
military-contract bikes excepted, but Buells included. BMW uses belt
drive on their F-series, chain on their G-series, and shaft on the K-
and R-bikes.

The majority of sport bikes are chain-drive, with the Buells standing
out as an exception, along with whichever BMW or Moto Guzzi you care to
define as a sport bike. Note that nothing like a track or
competition-oriented sport motorcycle (the serious 600cc sport bikes,
for example) are belt or shaft driven.

Dirt bikes are also mostly chain, with the belt and shaft driven
exceptions all coming from BMW. As with sport bikes, the
competition-oriented equipment is all chain-drive. One may wish to make
an exception for BMW's Dakar entries, but I would tend not to.

Belt drive is used on some commuter bicycles, mostly in Japan. It's
clean, can be long-lived, and less efficient than a chain. I'm not sure
how much less efficient.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

On Sun, 27 May 2007 05:56:10 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Philip Lee said:

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 25 May 2007 16:02:56 -0500, catzz66
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>Dieter Britz wrote:
>> A colleague at work tells me that there was a bike parked here that
>> had a drive shaft instead of a chain. I know they use them on motor
>> bikes, but how effective are these on bicycles? I imagine there have
>> to be two right angle turns of the power applied, losing a bit at
>> each turn.
>> What is the story?
>
>Aren't most motorbikes (motorcycles) still belt drive or chain drive?

Dear C,

Almost all off-road motorcycles still use chains.

Over the last 30 years, the trend in street motorcycles is toward
shaft drive.

Google for motorcycle (to weed out ATVs), names like Honda, Yamaha,
Kawasaki, and Suzuki, and shaft drive.

For example:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=motorcycle+yamaha+%22sha
ft+drive%22&btnG=Search

In contrast, a bicycle with a shaft drive is a curiosity piece, which
is why we like to squabble about them on RBT.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Carl,

A cursory check shows that the majority of *current* bikes out there are
indeed still shaft and chain driven. This includes virtually all sportbikes
and all non-military Harleys. BMW, among others, stands out as the main
user of shaft drives in addition to more distance-oriented bikes for less
maintenance, and current larger-bore cruisers.

Harley-Davidson uses belt drive on all their current models, wacky
military-contract bikes excepted, but Buells included. BMW uses belt
drive on their F-series, chain on their G-series, and shaft on the K-
and R-bikes.

The majority of sport bikes are chain-drive, with the Buells standing
out as an exception, along with whichever BMW or Moto Guzzi you care to
define as a sport bike. Note that nothing like a track or
competition-oriented sport motorcycle (the serious 600cc sport bikes,
for example) are belt or shaft driven.

Dirt bikes are also mostly chain, with the belt and shaft driven
exceptions all coming from BMW. As with sport bikes, the
competition-oriented equipment is all chain-drive. One may wish to make
an exception for BMW's Dakar entries, but I would tend not to.

Belt drive is used on some commuter bicycles, mostly in Japan. It's
clean, can be long-lived, and less efficient than a chain. I'm not sure
how much less efficient.

Dear Ryan,

And the majority of touring motorcycles from Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki,
and Kawasaki are shaft drive.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Dieter Britz said:

A colleague at work tells me that there was a bike parked here that
had a drive shaft instead of a chain. I know they use them on motor
bikes, but how effective are these on bicycles? I imagine there have
to be two right angle turns of the power applied, losing a bit at
each turn.
What is the story?

slightly reduced mechanical efficiency but reduced maintenance. like
hub gears.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 27 May 2007 05:56:10 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[a summary of motorcycle drivetrains]

Quoted message said:

Dear Ryan,

And the majority of touring motorcycles from Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki,
and Kawasaki are shaft drive.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Oh yeah, but nobody cares about touring bikes. 🙂

In general, the heavier and less performance-oriented the bike, the more
likely it will be shaft drive. The ease of maintenance of a shaft drive
is so sweet.

My first motorcycle was a Yamaha Vision 550. That bike couldn't keep
itself in alternators, eventually rotted through its exhaust, and an
electrical fire once spontaneously started in the wiring. But the shaft
never gave a bit of trouble, and I don't even remember tire changes
being problematic.

After that, it was a succession of badly-maintained chain drives which
seemed to give me nothing but trouble.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

...I've noted comments regarding shaft drive motorcycles and I'd like to
clear up a few things...

Having a bit of experience with shaft drive race bikes (motorcycles)
their main "problem" is torque yaw. Sweeping, decreasing radius curves,
can get interesting VERY quickly!

My Moto Guzzi required extreme amounts of counter steering when
accelerating hard out of a right-hand sweeper. I found my 1100 Suzuki
Sport Tourer with shaft drive equally demanding even with it's inline 4
cylinder transverse engine versus the Guzzi's V-Twin longitudinal
layout. I was, at one time, working on a Moto Guzzi flat tracker. The
torque yaw really helped upon entry (go fast, turn left, repeat) however
if the exit of the turn wasn't dry and slick, the bike was WICKED!

...anyway, I think a shaft drive - internal geared bicycle drivetrain
will always have a limited yet wanting market...

Best Regards Always

Mike Baldwin

Michael Baldwin said:

..I've noted comments regarding shaft drive motorcycles and I'd like to
clear up a few things...

Having a bit of experience with shaft drive race bikes (motorcycles)
their main "problem" is torque yaw. Sweeping, decreasing radius curves,
can get interesting VERY quickly!

My Moto Guzzi required extreme amounts of counter steering when
accelerating hard out of a right-hand sweeper. I found my 1100 Suzuki
Sport Tourer with shaft drive equally demanding even with it's inline 4
cylinder transverse engine versus the Guzzi's V-Twin longitudinal
layout. I was, at one time, working on a Moto Guzzi flat tracker.

unless they affect frame stiffness, engine configuration doesn't have
any influence on torque yaw.

Quoted message said:

The
torque yaw really helped upon entry (go fast, turn left, repeat) however
if the exit of the turn wasn't dry and slick, the bike was WICKED!

but don't they have single rear swing arms? whether or not it's shaft
drive would be neutral in this - it can't impart torque yaw in its own
right. single rear swing arm and chain drive would yaw for the same
reasons.

Quoted message said:

..anyway, I think a shaft drive - internal geared bicycle drivetrain
will always have a limited yet wanting market...

Best Regards Always

Mike Baldwin

...thanks for the clarification Jim...LOL!

...I so enjoy the internet....

Best Regards Always

Mike Baldwin

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Philip Lee said:

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 25 May 2007 16:02:56 -0500, catzz66
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>Dieter Britz wrote:
>> A colleague at work tells me that there was a bike parked here
>> that had a drive shaft instead of a chain. I know they use them
>> on motor bikes, but how effective are these on bicycles? I
>> imagine there have to be two right angle turns of the power
>> applied, losing a bit at each turn.
>> What is the story?
>
>Aren't most motorbikes (motorcycles) still belt drive or chain
>drive?

Dear C,

Almost all off-road motorcycles still use chains.

Over the last 30 years, the trend in street motorcycles is toward
shaft drive.

Google for motorcycle (to weed out ATVs), names like Honda, Yamaha,
Kawasaki, and Suzuki, and shaft drive.

For example:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=motorcycle+yamaha+%22sha
ft+drive%22&btnG=Search

In contrast, a bicycle with a shaft drive is a curiosity piece,
which is why we like to squabble about them on RBT.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Carl,

A cursory check shows that the majority of *current* bikes out there
are indeed still shaft and chain driven. This includes virtually
all sportbikes and all non-military Harleys. BMW, among others,
stands out as the main user of shaft drives in addition to more
distance-oriented bikes for less maintenance, and current
larger-bore cruisers.

Harley-Davidson uses belt drive on all their current models, wacky
military-contract bikes excepted, but Buells included. BMW uses belt
drive on their F-series, chain on their G-series, and shaft on the K-
and R-bikes.

The majority of sport bikes are chain-drive, with the Buells standing
out as an exception, along with whichever BMW or Moto Guzzi you care
to define as a sport bike. Note that nothing like a track or
competition-oriented sport motorcycle (the serious 600cc sport bikes,
for example) are belt or shaft driven.

Dirt bikes are also mostly chain, with the belt and shaft driven
exceptions all coming from BMW. As with sport bikes, the
competition-oriented equipment is all chain-drive. One may wish to
make an exception for BMW's Dakar entries, but I would tend not to.

Belt drive is used on some commuter bicycles, mostly in Japan. It's
clean, can be long-lived, and less efficient than a chain. I'm not
sure how much less efficient.

Whoops. I meant to say "belt and chain driven."

--
Phil

Blip the throttle on a big Guzzi and I can promise you that the bike
will twist (action and reaction with prop shaft going one way, the crank
case and hence the bike will try to go the other). As bike steering
geometry dictates that angle of lean affects yaw it therefore follows;
blip throttle, bike yaws. The Guzzis' also exhibit an interesting
characteristic of the shaft trying to 'climb' up it's pinion in the rear
drive box on acceleration, making the rear end sit up as you gas it. The
later models have been better in the latter respect, separating drive
and swinging arm functions.
--
Phil Passmore PPL(A)

Quoted message said:

...the drive
shaft is in effect a torsion spring between pedal and wheel.

True, but in the thread that Carl linked, we went through the
calculations and found that the compliance of that spring was minuscule.
See message 154 and preceding messages to see the calculations (and the
embarrassing error I made).

Hopefully this will convince you to stop dragging out that hoary old
chestnut made of myth and lore. :^)

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Everyone confesses that exertion which brings out all the powers of body
and mind is the best thing for us; but most people do all they can to
get rid of it, and as a general rule nobody does much more than
circumstances drive them to do. -Harriet Beecher Stowe, abolitionist and
novelist (1811-1896)

Quoth Dieter Britz:

Quoted message said:

A colleague at work tells me that there was a bike parked here that
had a drive shaft instead of a chain. I know they use them on motor
bikes, but how effective are these on bicycles? I imagine there have
to be two right angle turns of the power applied, losing a bit at
each turn.
What is the story?

Shaft drive was briefly popular around 1899-1900, but it was
discovered to be considerably inferior to chain drive in practice.
This design has been obsolete for over a century.

Purveyors of shaft drive bikes often use misleading arguments to
promote their products.

See also: http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_sa-o.html#shaft

Sheldon "Chains" Brown
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