Dropout blues - rear wheel pulling out

Quoted message said:

1. I have mavic cosmic elite hubs/wheelset. My LBS reckons they're
"good wheels which are designed to handle the QR being jacked up as
tight as you can get it". I read elsewhere that overtightening QR's can
cause compression of the bearings and other equally painful sounding
ailments. Any solution will require me jacking the QR up very tight so
the q is will I be damaging my hub in the process?

Will: I'm not a big fan of the Mavic QRs; my guess is that you'll find
better results if you replace the rear one with a conventional Shimano (or
Campy) style. The problem isn't just the mating surfaces being steel vs
aluminum or serrated vs smooth, but the way the mechanism works. Give it a
try before pulling hair out on all the other options.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"SuperFly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gday,
I have an older italian steel frame which I just got second hand and
manage to keep pulling the rear wheel out of the dropouts. The dropouts
are almost parallel to the chain line which probably doesn't help.
Anyway, I read thru previous posts and the comments seem to be
distilled to

1. ensure the axle isn't protruding thru the dropouts preventing QR
binding properly
2. use a steel nutted QR such as shimano as they bind better than the
non steel alloy ones.
3. insert a binding washer ( a serrated washer ) between frame and
dropouts
4. score the dropouts as a means of last resort
5. use track axle/nuts

I have some questions regarding these and a couple of other things.

1. I have mavic cosmic elite hubs/wheelset. My LBS reckons they're
"good wheels which are designed to handle the QR being jacked up as
tight as you can get it". I read elsewhere that overtightening QR's can
cause compression of the bearings and other equally painful sounding
ailments. Any solution will require me jacking the QR up very tight so
the q is will I be damaging my hub in the process?

2. do track axles/nuts actually hold the wheel in place any better than
a quick release? I so, will this put extra pressure on my hub ala
question 1?

3. if i wanted to score the dropouts (eek) how should this be done?

4. will inserting the washers change the rear spacing and affect
shifting? If so can i adjust for this simply by adjusting the DR limit
screws or is it more complex than that?

5. is the wise options just to kiss my ( ideal barring the wheel
falling off thing) frame goodbye, and look for a different less life
threatening one?

Appreciate any thoughts you might have.

Happy flaming,
Will

SuperFly said:

Gday,
I have an older italian steel frame which I just got second hand and
manage to keep pulling the rear wheel out of the dropouts.

use campy or shimano closed cam skewers. much better mechanism allowing
higher, more consistent application of clamping force. they don't allow
slip.

Quoted message said:

The dropouts
are almost parallel to the chain line which probably doesn't help.
Anyway, I read thru previous posts and the comments seem to be
distilled to

1. ensure the axle isn't protruding thru the dropouts preventing QR
binding properly
2. use a steel nutted QR such as shimano as they bind better than the
non steel alloy ones.
3. insert a binding washer ( a serrated washer ) between frame and
dropouts
4. score the dropouts as a means of last resort
5. use track axle/nuts

I have some questions regarding these and a couple of other things.

1. I have mavic cosmic elite hubs/wheelset. My LBS reckons they're
"good wheels which are designed to handle the QR being jacked up as
tight as you can get it". I read elsewhere that overtightening QR's can
cause compression of the bearings and other equally painful sounding
ailments. Any solution will require me jacking the QR up very tight so
the q is will I be damaging my hub in the process?

2. do track axles/nuts actually hold the wheel in place any better than
a quick release? I so, will this put extra pressure on my hub ala
question 1?

3. if i wanted to score the dropouts (eek) how should this be done?

4. will inserting the washers change the rear spacing and affect
shifting? If so can i adjust for this simply by adjusting the DR limit
screws or is it more complex than that?

5. is the wise options just to kiss my ( ideal barring the wheel
falling off thing) frame goodbye, and look for a different less life
threatening one?

Appreciate any thoughts you might have.

Happy flaming,
Will

"SuperFly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gday,
I have an older italian steel frame which I just got second hand and
manage to keep pulling the rear wheel out of the dropouts. The dropouts
are almost parallel to the chain line which probably doesn't help.
Anyway, I read thru previous posts and the comments seem to be
distilled to

1. ensure the axle isn't protruding thru the dropouts preventing QR
binding properly
2. use a steel nutted QR such as shimano as they bind better than the
non steel alloy ones.
3. insert a binding washer ( a serrated washer ) between frame and
dropouts
4. score the dropouts as a means of last resort
5. use track axle/nuts

I have some questions regarding these and a couple of other things.

1. I have mavic cosmic elite hubs/wheelset. My LBS reckons they're
"good wheels which are designed to handle the QR being jacked up as
tight as you can get it". I read elsewhere that overtightening QR's can
cause compression of the bearings and other equally painful sounding
ailments. Any solution will require me jacking the QR up very tight so
the q is will I be damaging my hub in the process?

2. do track axles/nuts actually hold the wheel in place any better than
a quick release? I so, will this put extra pressure on my hub ala
question 1?

3. if i wanted to score the dropouts (eek) how should this be done?

4. will inserting the washers change the rear spacing and affect
shifting? If so can i adjust for this simply by adjusting the DR limit
screws or is it more complex than that?

5. is the wise options just to kiss my ( ideal barring the wheel
falling off thing) frame goodbye, and look for a different less life
threatening one?

Appreciate any thoughts you might have.

Happy flaming,
Will

I had the same problem when I upgraded the wheels and other components on my
1978 Gios. The newer quick releases don't work on horizontal dropouts. I
reinstalled my Campy skewers and that solved the problem immediately.

Neal

SuperFly said:

Gday,
I have an older italian steel frame which I just got second hand and
manage to keep pulling the rear wheel out of the dropouts. The dropouts
are almost parallel to the chain line which probably doesn't help.
Anyway, I read thru previous posts and the comments seem to be
distilled to

1. ensure the axle isn't protruding thru the dropouts preventing QR
binding properly
2. use a steel nutted QR such as shimano as they bind better than the
non steel alloy ones.
3. insert a binding washer ( a serrated washer ) between frame and
dropouts
4. score the dropouts as a means of last resort
5. use track axle/nuts

I have some questions regarding these and a couple of other things.

1. I have mavic cosmic elite hubs/wheelset. My LBS reckons they're
"good wheels which are designed to handle the QR being jacked up as
tight as you can get it". I read elsewhere that overtightening QR's can
cause compression of the bearings and other equally painful sounding
ailments. Any solution will require me jacking the QR up very tight so
the q is will I be damaging my hub in the process?

2. do track axles/nuts actually hold the wheel in place any better than
a quick release? I so, will this put extra pressure on my hub ala
question 1?

3. if i wanted to score the dropouts (eek) how should this be done?

4. will inserting the washers change the rear spacing and affect
shifting? If so can i adjust for this simply by adjusting the DR limit
screws or is it more complex than that?

5. is the wise options just to kiss my ( ideal barring the wheel
falling off thing) frame goodbye, and look for a different less life
threatening one?

Use an old steel-handled Shimano skewer and ensure the cam is lubricated
with a drop of oil.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

1. I have mavic cosmic elite hubs/wheelset. My LBS reckons they're
"good wheels which are designed to handle the QR being jacked up as
tight as you can get it". I read elsewhere that overtightening QR's can
cause compression of the bearings and other equally painful sounding
ailments. Any solution will require me jacking the QR up very tight so
the q is will I be damaging my hub in the process?

Adjust the bearing play so that they are a bit loose. Then when you tighten
the QR, it will take up the play but not cause binding. It is a trial and
error process, but can be easily done.

Quoted message said:

2. do track axles/nuts actually hold the wheel in place any better than
a quick release? I so, will this put extra pressure on my hub ala
question 1?

Yes. No. A QR compresses the whole axle assembly. A nut just squeezes betwen
the axle locknut and the end nut.

Quoted message said:

3. if i wanted to score the dropouts (eek) how should this be done?

No idea.

Quoted message said:

4. will inserting the washers change the rear spacing and affect
shifting? If so can i adjust for this simply by adjusting the DR limit
screws or is it more complex than that?

limit screw adjustments.

Quoted message said:

5. is the wise options just to kiss my ( ideal barring the wheel
falling off thing) frame goodbye, and look for a different less life
threatening one?

Keep trying, it will hold when you get the right combination.
----------
Alex

SuperFly said:

The dropouts
are almost parallel to the chain line which probably doesn't help.

Bike shops have tools to check the dropout alignment
and to adjust it by cold setting (that is, bending).

I'd make sure the dropout alignment is correct (that is,
their faces parallel to the central plane of the frame).

Tom Ace

Adjusting the bearings and then tightening the [censored] out of the
quick-release is definitely the best solution. I have a steel-framed
singlespeed that didn't have good bite with the locknut serrations.
It took me a decent crash when my chain derailed to figure that one
out.

I use a old-school steel-handled Shimano QR and I have to yank on it
pretty hard to get it off. Whatever you do, don't use any of the small
late-model Specialized skewers. They're [censored].

Phil

SuperFly said:

Gday,
I have an older italian steel frame which I just got second hand and
manage to keep pulling the rear wheel out of the dropouts. The dropouts
are almost parallel to the chain line which probably doesn't help.
Anyway, I read thru previous posts and the comments seem to be
distilled to

1. ensure the axle isn't protruding thru the dropouts preventing QR
binding properly
2. use a steel nutted QR such as shimano as they bind better than the
non steel alloy ones.
3. insert a binding washer ( a serrated washer ) between frame and
dropouts
4. score the dropouts as a means of last resort
5. use track axle/nuts

I have some questions regarding these and a couple of other things.

1. I have mavic cosmic elite hubs/wheelset. My LBS reckons they're
"good wheels which are designed to handle the QR being jacked up as
tight as you can get it". I read elsewhere that overtightening QR's can
cause compression of the bearings and other equally painful sounding
ailments. Any solution will require me jacking the QR up very tight so
the q is will I be damaging my hub in the process?

2. do track axles/nuts actually hold the wheel in place any better than
a quick release? I so, will this put extra pressure on my hub ala
question 1?

3. if i wanted to score the dropouts (eek) how should this be done?

4. will inserting the washers change the rear spacing and affect
shifting? If so can i adjust for this simply by adjusting the DR limit
screws or is it more complex than that?

5. is the wise options just to kiss my ( ideal barring the wheel
falling off thing) frame goodbye, and look for a different less life
threatening one?

Appreciate any thoughts you might have.

Happy flaming,
Will

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/skewers.html

In article <[email hidden]>,

SuperFly said:

Gday,
I have an older italian steel frame which I just got second hand and
manage to keep pulling the rear wheel out of the dropouts. The dropouts
are almost parallel to the chain line which probably doesn't help.

Try a drop of oil on the cam of the quick release. It can bind and
prevent proper tightening of the QR.

(Concerning other question: Adjust bearings a bit loose, such that
tightening the QR compresses the axle enough to take up the play and
give a very modest pre-load.)

--
Ned Mantei
Zurich, Switzerland

"SuperFly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gday,
I have an older italian steel frame which I just got second hand and
manage to keep pulling the rear wheel out of the dropouts. The dropouts
are almost parallel to the chain line which probably doesn't help.
Anyway, I read thru previous posts and the comments seem to be
distilled to

1. ensure the axle isn't protruding thru the dropouts preventing QR
binding properly
2. use a steel nutted QR such as shimano as they bind better than the
non steel alloy ones.
3. insert a binding washer ( a serrated washer ) between frame and
dropouts
4. score the dropouts as a means of last resort
5. use track axle/nuts

You didn't mention if the drop outs are chromed. If they are it is tougher
for the QR to get a bite.
Hi-E QR's had a spacer that would "cut into" the drop out thereby ensuring a
good bite. Maybe you could find some on E-Bay or search around. I had some
but can't put my hands on them now.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

SuperFly said:

Gday,
I have an older italian steel frame which I just got second hand and
manage to keep pulling the rear wheel out of the dropouts.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

5. is the wise options just to kiss my ( ideal barring the wheel
falling off thing) frame goodbye, and look for a different less life
threatening one?

Appreciate any thoughts you might have.

Hi Will,

if you get as far as 5, you could try what I did to rescue an old
Cannondale frame on which the chainwheel side dropout was a bit
"eroded". I replaced the replacable der. hanger, tried different
skewers, serrated washers etc., but no luck. The problem was still
happened occasionally, normally while climbing hard out of the
saddle.The inside face of the chain side chainstay was begining
seriously cut up by the small sprocket, and the frame was in danger of
getting beyond repair.

Rather than chuck out the frame (which is a good fit for me, and I like
a lot), I got a small piece of flat steel with two holes in it - I
think it was a spare mounting widget from a rear carrier I bought. I
fitted an Allan key-headed bold into one of the threaded dropout holes,
and removed the QR nut. One of the holes in the steel goes over the
head of the Allan bolt, the other over the skewer, and I then replaced
the QR nut. The piece of steel is held in place flat alongside the
outer face of the dropout by the QR nut, and it ties the skewer rod in
place (pulling against the Allen-headed bolt) so it can't pull out
forwards. I filed down the ends of the steel so it didn't stick out
beyond the profile of the dropout while in place.

OK, it's ugly, and it kind of defeats some of the purpose of the QR,
but it works. You can still remove the rear wheel without tools, just
loosen the QR nut a bit more until the the steel can be eased off the
head of the bolt.

It's been in place a few thousand commuting miles now, and no problems
since. There's no wear on the QR skewer either, so so far, so good.

I'm sure you can find/drill out somthing similar.

Hope this helps.

bookieb.

Gday,
Thanks to all (esp Alex) who replied. I'm much encouraged as I'm pretty
attached to this frame. Have gone and bougth a higher end shimano
skewer ( its actually xt but I figure ( hope) it should be as good as
the road stuff.) Hopefully this will fix the problem. The S. Brown
piece was certainly pretty illuminating. The bike is off the road at
the moment as pulling the dropout has resulted in a groove on the
inside of the right dropout and also the wheel locknuts have been worn
smooth(ish). I'm getting thsi sorted out and hopefully all will be well
and I won't have to manufacture some sort of bracket as some of the
more resourceful folks have done.
Anyway thanks again,
Will

SuperFly said:

Gday,
Thanks to all (esp Alex) who replied. I'm much encouraged as I'm pretty
attached to this frame. Have gone and bougth a higher end shimano
skewer ( its actually xt but I figure ( hope) it should be as good as
the road stuff.) Hopefully this will fix the problem. The S. Brown
piece was certainly pretty illuminating. The bike is off the road at
the moment as pulling the dropout has resulted in a groove on the
inside of the right dropout and also the wheel locknuts have been worn
smooth(ish). I'm getting thsi sorted out and hopefully all will be well
and I won't have to manufacture some sort of bracket as some of the
more resourceful folks have done.
Anyway thanks again,
Will

An XT skewer for the rear may be too long for road use. The standard
road spacing is 130mm and mtb spacing is 135mm.

Why not get the correct one?

Life is Good!
Jeff

Jeff Starr said:

SuperFly said:

Gday,
Thanks to all (esp Alex) who replied. I'm much encouraged as I'm pretty
attached to this frame. Have gone and bougth a higher end shimano
skewer ( its actually xt but I figure ( hope) it should be as good as
the road stuff.) Hopefully this will fix the problem. The S. Brown
piece was certainly pretty illuminating. The bike is off the road at
the moment as pulling the dropout has resulted in a groove on the
inside of the right dropout and also the wheel locknuts have been worn
smooth(ish). I'm getting thsi sorted out and hopefully all will be well
and I won't have to manufacture some sort of bracket as some of the
more resourceful folks have done.
Anyway thanks again,
Will

An XT skewer for the rear may be too long for road use. The standard
road spacing is 130mm and mtb spacing is 135mm.

Why not get the correct one?

Not really inappropriate for road use.It won't hurt anything if the end
of the skewer protrudes a bit. Or, you could cut it down with a hacksaw
or dremel tool.
I had the same wheel slippage issue with my Tommasini (chromed dropout
faces), but using an older Dura Ace skewer and tightening it
sufficently solved the problem. I also concur with the poster who
suggested you have the alignment of the dropouts checked to insure that
they are parallel.

email hidden said:

Jeff Starr said:

An XT skewer for the rear may be too long for road use. The standard
road spacing is 130mm and mtb spacing is 135mm.

Why not get the correct one?

Not really inappropriate for road use.It won't hurt anything if the end
of the skewer protrudes a bit. Or, you could cut it down with a hacksaw
or dremel tool.
I had the same wheel slippage issue with my Tommasini (chromed dropout
faces), but using an older Dura Ace skewer and tightening it
sufficently solved the problem. I also concur with the poster who
suggested you have the alignment of the dropouts checked to insure that
they are parallel.

That's assumming that there are enough threads to tighten it
sufficently. Without seeing it, I don't know.

Sure, it won't hurt anything, if he can tighten it enough.

Life is Good!
Jeff