DT Revolutions & Lacing pattern

jp who? said:

I could use some input from all of you wheelbuilders out there.

Quoted message said:

I'm going to be building a set of wheels with DT Revolutions for the
first time. I've built two sets so far with Competitions. Is there
anything I should look out for with the Revs?

Quoted message said:

Also, I'll be building the rear 28-hole radial non-drive side and 3x
drive side. Is that a bad idea? Should it be the other way around?

Why bother with a mixed spoke pattern? What do you think that would
achieve that a symmetric pattern would not.

The greatest problem with these spokes will be twist that becomes
large enough to snap spokes when building a reasonably tight wheel.
This can be overcome with a sturdy truing stand, by pulling the rim at
the spoke to be adjusted toward that side, thus slackening that spoke.
I would stay away from revoltingly thin spokes.

Jobst Brandt

jp_nyc said:

I could use some input from all of you wheelbuilders out there.

I'm going to be building a set of wheels with DT Revolutions for the
first time. I've built two sets so far with Competitions. Is there
anything I should look out for with the Revs?

Also, I'll be building the rear 28-hole radial non-drive side and 3x
drive side. Is that a bad idea? Should it be the other way around?

I weigh in at 110 lbs.

It's difficult to get 2.0/1.5 spokes to high tension w/o them
twisting. Radial lacing is very difficult.

I'd ok to use Revs on NDS, cross 2. I use 2.0/1.8 on drive side.
Twenty-eight front built cross 2 works out fine.

jp_nyc said:

I could use some input from all of you wheelbuilders out there.

I'm going to be building a set of wheels with DT Revolutions for the
first time. I've built two sets so far with Competitions. Is there
anything I should look out for with the Revs?

Also, I'll be building the rear 28-hole radial non-drive side and 3x
drive side. Is that a bad idea? Should it be the other way around?

I weigh in at 110 lbs.

Thanks.

Well, if ya gotta build with Revs in the rear...lace front 2 cross, 28
hole and just to match the rear, lace inside pulling or 'head out'.
Rear, for a properly buuilt wheel, radial left side does nada. lace 3
cross, and use head out or inside pulling so as to not overlap lots of
pulling spoke on the flange on the outside of the flange, big bend,
'possible' broken spokes.
Tension is tension, use lube and brass nipps.

AND make sure the rim is heavy enough to support thin spokes...kinda
approacing the '3 strikes and yer out' scenario. light rim, low spoke
count, thin spokes

I'm using Aeroheads (OC rear) with White Industries H1 hubs.

Hmm... consensus seems to be that I'm taking a big risk with radially
lacing Revolutions. The spokes were part of the package, so it'll be a
learning experience for me.

Thanks for all the input.

jp who? said:

I'm using Aeroheads (OC rear) with White Industries H1 hubs.

Quoted message said:

Hmm... consensus seems to be that I'm taking a big risk with
radially lacing Revolutions. The spokes were part of the package, so
it'll be a learning experience for me.

Not at all. It's getting them tight that's the problem. However,
radial spoking was scrapped with John Staley's invention of cross
laced spoking with tied spoke crossings to prevent high wheelers from
doing an endo when a spoke broke. Today, with crossed and interleaved
spokes, no tying and soldering is required to keep a broken spoke from
thrashing around. Spoke failure makes a dull "crack" and the spoke
stays in place. With radial spoking the spoke will thrash about as
spokes did 100 years ago.

Jobst Brandt

jp_nyc said:

...I'm going to be building a set of wheels with DT Revolutions for the first time. I've built two sets so far with Competitions. Also, I'll be building the rear 28-hole radial non-drive side and 3x
drive side. Is that a bad idea?

It might not be hugely beneficial, but i don't think it'd qualify as bad either...

Last wheels I built was for a MTB(36H). I used DT Alpine III in 3X for the drive side and DT Rev in radial, head out for the non-drive side. Build was easy. I'd actually stuck small bits of tape on the spokes to help me keep track of spoke wind-up, but it turned out to be a non-issue. Haven't logged more than maybe 400 miles on them, so long-term durability is still an open question.
Whether it actually does anything significant for durability or not I don't know, but it sure helped to get the tension up in the non-drive spokes. I used brass nipples on the drive side and aluminum nipples on the other, more for the fun of it than out of any expectance of noticeable performance gains.

Then I got a bit carried away in the spirit of experimentation and laced the wheel in lateral cross as well. The nipple angle looks a bit stressed, but with rims with eyelets it doesn't appear to cause an immediate problem anyhow.

Front wheel was DT rev in full radial, heads in. Apart from a fairly light wheel I don't know if there are any significant benefits, but so far it hasn't been any problem either.

jp_nyc said:

I could use some input from all of you wheelbuilders out there.

I'm going to be building a set of wheels with DT Revolutions for the
first time. I've built two sets so far with Competitions. Is there
anything I should look out for with the Revs?

Also, I'll be building the rear 28-hole radial non-drive side and 3x
drive side. Is that a bad idea? Should it be the other way around?

I weigh in at 110 lbs.

Thanks.

sheldonbrown.comwheelbuild.htmlOpen ↗
If you are not stuck with lengths for 3X, go with 2X.
Use good lubrication on threads and nipple seats.
Your technique(s) to reduce and remove wind-up is important.

On Jan 30, 7:34 am, daveornee <daveornee.2l8...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

If you are not stuck with lengths for 3X, go with 2X.

Why do you recommend 2x on the drive side, Dave? Doesn't 3x give a
little better torque transfer with 28h?

Ron Ruff said:

On Jan 30, 7:34 am, daveornee <daveornee.2l8...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

If you are not stuck with lengths for 3X, go with 2X.Why do you recommend 2x on the drive side, Dave? Doesn't 3x give a

little better torque transfer with 28h?

2x is recommended for 28 spoke wheels because with 3x the crosses are
coming very close to the hub. Less room to work. Less room for the
spokes. Looks better.

jp_nyc said:

I could use some input from all of you wheelbuilders out there.

I'm going to be building a set of wheels with DT Revolutions for the
first time. I've built two sets so far with Competitions. Is there
anything I should look out for with the Revs?

Oh yes. Mark one side with a permanent marker before beginning to
tighten them, so you can make sure all the twist is removed by the end
of the truing process. They can turn through nearly 360 degrees.

Quoted message said:

Also, I'll be building the rear 28-hole radial non-drive side and 3x
drive side. Is that a bad idea? Should it be the other way around?

The other way round equalises the tensions better, but the conventional
way you describe is a safer option for most hubs. Some hub shells can
literally twist and break due to the torsion. The weight saving is
minimal, and you are best advised to build x3 (or even x2, for 28h) on
both sides.

Ron Ruff said:

On Jan 30, 7:34 am, daveornee <daveornee.2l8...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

If you are not stuck with lengths for 3X, go with 2X.

Why do you recommend 2x on the drive side, Dave? Doesn't 3x give a
little better torque transfer with 28h?

Generally the fewer the spokes, the fewer the crosses should be. You
can go either way with 28h. If your hubs are large flange, like many
track hubs, x2 every time to avoid silly spoke/rim angles.

Quoted message said:

2x is recommended for 28 spoke wheels because with 3x the crosses are
coming very close to the hub. Less room to work. Less room for the
spokes. Looks better.

Hmmm... on my 32h hub, 3x crosses farther from the hub than 2x.
Wouldn't it be the same with 28?

I figured the main reason was to give a little better bracing angle on
the DS, but I wanted to see if there was another...

Ron Ruff said:

On Jan 30, 7:34 am, daveornee <daveornee.2l8...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

If you are not stuck with lengths for 3X, go with 2X.

Why do you recommend 2x on the drive side, Dave? Doesn't 3x give a
little better torque transfer with 28h?

OP didn't specify what hubs, but I ilke the spoke alignment and spoke support angle of 2X better with most hubs. You can also avoid overlap of spoke to adjacent spoke head which would happen with higher flange hubs... again depending on the ERD of the rims involved.
3X might give better torque transfer than 2x depending on the hub and rim invovled, but I wouldn't consider the difference a big deal.

Quoted message said:

OP didn't specify what hubs.

White Industries H1 hubs
Velocity Aerohead rims (OC rear)
Revolution spokes
Brass nipples

I like the suggestion of 2x on DS. I might go with that.

Quoted message said:

On Jan 30, 7:34 am, daveornee <daveornee.2l8...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

If you are not stuck with lengths for 3X, go with 2X.

Ron Ruff said:

Why do you recommend 2x on the drive side, Dave? Doesn't 3x give a
little better torque transfer with 28h?

2x is just about optimal on a 28h. 3x can lay a spoke over the next
head - it's extreme on a 28h.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Okay I weigh more than the OP, closer to 95Kg , are DT revolution
spokes still recommended?

My intended wheelbuild is the Ultegra hubs with open pro rims,
32spoked.

I have been reading so many differing opinions on lacing patterns.
Sheldon Brown website say radial on non-drive side with 3X on drive
side will give a robust wheel. Others have said a different spoking
pattern on each side will cause problems.

Whats the real deal on spoking patterns?

thanks

noom said:

Whats the real deal on spoking patterns?

Wheels in all their detail have been (and are) discussed endlessly here, sometimes with merit, sometimes with more of a nit-picking, hair splitting nature...

Simplifying grossly I think that components have gotten so strong today that the margins for an average user are considerable. As long as build and bits quality is good and you steer clear of (rather) obviously unsuitable combos(full radial rear, low spoke count for heavy riders...) you can probably ride and be pleased with just about anything.
Unless you're pushing the envelope in some direction (weight weenie, loaded touring, racers looking for "the edge"...)the main reason for using other than 2X/3X is probably out of sheer interest.

And it really depends on a lot of things, simplicity of build, weight tolerance, desired looks, desired durability etc.

3X is true and tested. Few enough crossings to be easily buildable, few clearance issues and good torque transfer.
Sometimes 2X is used on one side and 3X on the other to allow for the use of one spoke length for both sides of a dished wheel. Sometimes 2X gives better clearance at the hub flange. Torque transfer is still good.

Don't think I've ever seen a wheel built 1X.

Radial is slightly more aero, reduces weight a little and lacing heads in/out will influence spoke angle some which can help balance spoke tension in a dished wheel. It puts a greater strain on the hub flange and has very poor torque transfer properties.

noom said:

Okay I weigh more than the OP, closer to 95Kg , are DT revolution
spokes still recommended?

My intended wheelbuild is the Ultegra hubs with open pro rims,
32spoked.

I have been reading so many differing opinions on lacing patterns.
Sheldon Brown website say radial on non-drive side with 3X on drive
side will give a robust wheel. Others have said a different spoking
pattern on each side will cause problems.

Whats the real deal on spoking patterns?

thanks

209 pounds and I would NOT recommnd 32 h for you. yes, yes some will
opine here that 'geezzz I'm more than a .1 offa ton', and I built this
or that silly wheelset w/o enough spokes, thin spokes and light rim
and after zillions of miles it's perfect and I've never trued it,
blah, blah", but I don't get it. Why not add those measley 28 grams
per wheel for 36...cuz it's stronger than 32. maybe Revs on the front,
but that does nothing but cost more. Your wheels like your bicycle is
there to get you there. Radial on the left side rear does nothing when
compared to a well built, properly tensioned wheel. Nor does radial
fronts..eyewash101.

jp_nyc said:

Hmm... consensus seems to be that I'm taking a big risk with radially
lacing Revolutions. The spokes were part of the package, so it'll be a
learning experience for me.

And, the advice came from experts and not first wheel builders. I'm
an amateur that build few wheels. I didn't end with wheels that broke
spokes but wheels that frequently needed touch-up truing.

That said, my favorite rear wheels are built with 32 x 1.8/1.6 mm and
I weigh close to 200 lbs. <http://www.caltriplecrown.com/Fame.htm#PK>

also California Triple Crown 100 Double Century club.
<http://www.caltriplecrown.com/Fame.htm>