"Dutch processed" or regular baking cocoa?

"Franfogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If a cake recipe calls for "Dutch processed" cocoa, can
one use regular

cocoa

Quoted message said:

without a problem? I'm not sure whether there is some
necessary chemical interaction or it's just a matter of
taste. In fact, is there an actual difference in taste?
Anyone know the answer to these earthshaking

questions?

Quoted message said:

Thanks!

Fran

Yes there is a difference and recipes usually call for one
or the other because of the chemical reaction.

See Below:

Dimitri

cocoa powder [KOH-koh] Both CHOCOLATE and cocoa powder come
from cocoa beans that grow in pods on the tropical Theobroma
cacao tree, which is found in Southeast Asia, Africa,
Hawaii, Brazil and other South American countries. Once
cocoa beans are fermented, dried, roasted and cracked, the
nibs are ground to extract about 75 percent of the cocoa
butter, leaving a dark brown paste called chocolate liquor.
After drying again, the hardened mass is ground into the
powder known as unsweetened cocoa. The richer, darker Dutch
cocoa has been treated with an ALKALI, which helps
neutralize cocoa's natural acidity. Cocoa powder is sold
plain or mixed with other ingredients such as milk powder
and sugar, forming an instant cocoa mix. Cocoa mixes should
not be substituted for cocoa powder in recipes. Store cocoa
powder airtight in a cool, dark place for up to 2 years. ©
Copyright Barron's Educational Services, Inc. 1995 based on
THE FOOD LOVER'S COMPANION, 2nd edition,

Quoted message said:

(Franfogel)

If a cake recipe calls for "Dutch processed" cocoa, can one
use regular cocoa without a problem? I'm not sure whether
there is some necessary chemical interaction or it's just a
matter of taste. In fact, is there an actual difference in
taste? Anyone know the answer to these earthshaking
questions?

No reason you can't use either; for baking I prefer high fat
cocoa, for beverages Dutched cocoa is supposedly smoother...
but that's subjective... use what ya got.

cocoa powder [KOH-koh] Both CHOCOLATE and cocoa powder come
from cocoa beans that grow in pods on the tropical Theobroma
cacao tree, which is found in Southeast Asia, Africa,
Hawaii, Brazil and other South American countries. Once
cocoa beans are fermented, dried, roasted and cracked, the
nibs are ground to extract about 75 percent of the cocoa
butter, leaving a dark brown paste called chocolate liquor.
After drying again, the hardened mass is ground into the
powder known as unsweetened cocoa. The richer, darker Dutch
cocoa has been treated with an ALKALI, which helps
neutralize cocoa's natural acidity. Cocoa powder is sold
plain or mixed with other ingredients such as milk powder
and sugar, forming an instant cocoa mix. Cocoa mixes should
not be substituted for cocoa powder in recipes. Store cocoa
powder airtight in a cool, dark place for up to 2 years.

© Copyright Barron's Educational Services, Inc. 1995 based
on THE FOOD LOVER'S COMPANION, 2nd edition, by Sharon
Tyler Herbst.

---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =--- ---= Move UNITED
NATIONS To Paris =--- Sheldon ```````````` "Life would be
devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

Franfogel said:

If a cake recipe calls for "Dutch processed" cocoa, can
one use regular cocoa without a problem? I'm not sure
whether there is some necessary chemical interaction or
it's just a matter of taste. In fact, is there an actual
difference in taste? Anyone know the answer to these
earthshaking questions? Thanks!

Fran

That should work, but if it calls for regular cocoa you
cannot necessarily substitute dutched cocoa. Regular cocoa
is acidic, and dutch process cocoa is alkaline; they react
differently with the baking soda in the recipe.

-bob

[email hidden] (Franfogel) wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

If a cake recipe calls for "Dutch processed" cocoa, can
one use regular cocoa without a problem? I'm not sure
whether there is some necessary chemical interaction or
it's just a matter of taste. In fact, is there an actual
difference in taste? Anyone know the answer to these
earthshaking questions? Thanks!

Fran

Well I prefer the taste of the Dutch process. There is a
difference though...Regular Coca is more acidic.

--
Once during Prohibition I was forced to live for days on
nothing but food and water.
--------
FIELDS, W. C.

at Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:16:25 GMT in
<[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
(Franfogel) wrote :

Quoted message said:

If a cake recipe calls for "Dutch processed" cocoa, can one
use regular cocoa without a problem? I'm not sure whether
there is some necessary chemical interaction or it's just a
matter of taste. In fact, is there an actual difference in
taste? Anyone know the answer to these earthshaking
questions? Thanks!

Fran

To a certain extent, it depends on the recipe. Dutch
processed cocoa (which has been processed with potassium
carbonate, an alkali), is as you'd expect, more alkaline
than "natural process". Now, some recipes depend on a
reaction between alkaline baking soda and an acid in the
ingredients, and if that acid is supposed to be cocoa, using
natural process is the only way it's going to turn out
correctly. An example, for instance, is Devil's Food cake.
But your recipe calls for Dutch process, so it's not
depending on that sort of reaction. However, if you use
natural process instead, it's possible that the extra
acidity will imbalance a leavening action. You could get
maddeningly inconsistent results, such as extreme cake
doming, uneven texture, large bubbles, stratification (where
the top is very light and airy, while the bottom is dense,
often not even baked through, resulting in a fudgy texture)
and other problems.

As to flavour, there is a considerable difference. Dutch-
process has a milder overall taste with a distinct metallic
twang. Generally it's blander and more uniform. Natural-
process is much more lively and more powerful. It can
deliver a potent bitter kick with some brands, especially if
the amount of cocoa you use is considerable. Natural-process
is also more variable in flavour - it's useful here to try
different cocoas and see which one you like best.

Dutch-process cocoa also makes for a darker colour. This is
deceptive, because it can lead the unsuspecting eater into
the belief that the cake will be stronger in flavour than
the usually redder, lighter colour of a cake (or for that
matter, anything else) made with natural-process, but it
will in fact be less strong for the same amount of cocoa.

Natural-process cocoa is more heat-sensitive, which means
you need to pay closer attention to the actual state of the
cake in the oven and ignore stated baking times. The best
rule is: when the smell of cocoa from the oven becomes
INTENSE and deep, the cake is done.

If the cake has other flavours, different types of cocoa
make a better match. For cream, custard, blueberries,
bananas, white chocolate, and caramel, Dutch-processed
cocoa is better. For strawberries, raspberries, cherries,
blackberries, coffee, cinnamon, and nuts, natural-process
is better. The idea is to choose the cocoa whose flavour
most complements the other flavouring and doesn't overwhelm
it. That's why chocolate cakes with white frosting are
usually made with Dutch-process cocoa: besides the visual
appeal of the dark, almost black cake against the white
frosting, a natural-process cake would overwhelm the
flavour of white frosting.

Finally, cocoas come in 2 fat contents: high-fat (~24%) and
low-fat (~7%) Low-fat cocoas always have a more subdued
flavour, and lead to drier cakes, as well as being more heat-
sensitive. High-fat cocoas are richer in flavour and will
make a cake lighter as well as moister.

Among common brands, Hershey's and Ghirardelli are high-fat,
natural- process. Scharffen Berger is also natural-process,
high-fat. If you want to pay the big bucks, Michel Cluizel
"dark" is perhaps the best high-fat, natural process cocoa
in the world.

Meanwhile, Droste, Van Houten, Van Leer, and Hershey's
"European Style" (silver can) are high-fat Dutch process, as
are Pernigotti and Valrhona.

Most of the organic cocoas, such as Rapunzel and Ah-
laska, are low-fat, natural process. Dagoba, probably the
best organic cocoa, doesn't seem to specify or give any
sort of hint.

Guittard makes both natural and Dutch process cocoas, in
both fat levels. You usually find this in bulk bins. It's
best to ask to look at the bag to find out what type the
store stocks because the stockers may not know.

All these subtleties are exactly that - subtle. Most of the
time the impact on a cake won't be large, so usually
experimenting with a different type of cocoa won't be
disastrous. The effects become more pronounced as the amount
of cocoa in the recipe increases. In your case, you're
probably OK to substitute, but why not post the recipe and
then we can tell you for sure?
--
Alex Rast [email hidden] (remove d., .7,
not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

I'm not the original poster who asked, but I'm still
thanking all of you for these excellent explanations. I had
no idea. My last Penzey's order hasn't come yet, but I did
order Dutch process cocoa. At the time, I was thinking that
it sounded like better flavor and would substitute for the
Hershey's that I was about to run out of. The timing of this
thread is excellent. I'm glad I haven't had to learn the
hard way that they're not the same product.

Now. If I want to avoid those maddeningly inconsistent
results, is there some rule I should follow? I don't have a
recipe in front of me, but say I was making cookies that
call for baking powder and natural process cocoa. Would I
need to add an acid to the recipe like sour cream or vinegar
to make it work?

Something comes to mind. I never bake from a mix, but long
ago I learned a tip in case I ever did. That was to
substitute white wine for the water when making chocolate
cake from a mix. Apparently, something acid is very good
for bringing out the flavor of chocolate. I've noticed
that many recipes call for cultured buttermilk where
another (non-chocolate) recipe would call for fresh milk.
Sour cream, yogurt and vinegar show up in chocolate cake
recipes. Is it possible that the "add something acid to
chocolate cake recipes for best flavor" rule is based on
Dutch process cocoa?

--Lia

"Alex Rast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

All these subtleties are exactly that - subtle. Most of
the time the

impact

Quoted message said:

on a cake won't be large, so usually experimenting with a
different type

of

Quoted message said:

cocoa won't be disastrous.

why would it have to be all one or the other for that
matter? a mix of dutch and regular cocoa may prove the
optimal thing.

at Fri, 26 Mar 2004 00:56:13 GMT in <NcL8c.9698$JO3.16108@attbi_s04>,
[email hidden] (Julia Altshuler) wrote :

Quoted message said:

I'm not the original poster who asked, but I'm still
thanking all of you for these excellent explanations. I had
no idea. ...

Now. If I want to avoid those maddeningly inconsistent
results, is there some rule I should follow?

No. If you use a different type of cocoa, there's no way to
predict what adjustments you'd need to make to make it turn
out exactly as the recipe specified. But a little
experimentation would suffice. In other words, you've got
the right idea. A little lemon juice or sour milk or
whatever made sense could head you in the right direction.
Remember, again, though that the impact of using Dutch
instead of natural cocoa is generally going to be relatively
small and easily overlooked by people who aren't concerned
with professional-grade consistency.

Quoted message said:

Something comes to mind. I never bake from a mix, but long
ago I learned a tip in case I ever did. That was to
substitute white wine for the water when making chocolate
cake from a mix. ...Is it possible that the "add something
acid to chocolate cake recipes for best flavor" rule is
based on Dutch process cocoa?

Yes, it is. If you look at the ingredient labels for
virtually all box mixes, as well as most commercial baked
goods made with cocoa, you'll see that they say cocoa
(processed with alkali) - i.e. Dutch cocoa. The reason for
this is that you can get by with lower-quality Dutch cocoa
and still have acceptable results, because the Dutch process
masks any flavour defects of the beans, but with lower-
quality natural-process, any flavour problems of the
underlying beans have nowhere to hide. So they stand out in
sharp relief, and the result is very harsh taste (which is a
warning to you
- never buy low-quality natural-process cocoa. Always buy
premium natural- process cocoa). Unfortunately, very few
commercial companies seem to be interested in anything
except getting the lowest possible cost, and since they
can thereby get by with cheaper cocoa, if they use Dutch-
process, this is what they do.

The most irritating place this happens is in "chocolate" ice
cream. I've *never* seen a commercial ice cream (including
the "super premium" ones) that didn't use Dutch process
cocoa. And using Dutch cocoa in ice cream is about the worst
thing you could do. Truthfully, for a great chocolate ice
cream, you really should use chocolate, not cocoa, but the
recipes at that point become so fine-tuned in order to get
good results that it wouldn't be fair to expect a commercial
company to do it. But if they must use cocoa instead, at
least they could use natural-process. Cold subdues the
flavour of chocolate, and with the Dutch process already
subduing the flavour, the ice cream is off to a bad start.
To make matters worse, lots of cream and milk also subdue
the taste of chocolate, and so if you use Dutch process
cocoa in "chocolate" ice cream you're essentially guaranteed
to get a very pale, washed-out taste - at best a poor shadow
of chocolate. There seems to be common knowledge that
chocolate ice cream isn't very good, but this isn't because
it couldn't be good, it's because nobody seems to be willing
to put in the extra effort and expense necessary to actually
make it good.

--
Alex Rast [email hidden] (remove d., .7,
not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

Alex Rast wrote: Remember, again, though

Quoted message said:

that the impact of using Dutch instead of natural cocoa is
generally going to be relatively small and easily
overlooked by people who aren't concerned with professional-
grade consistency.

At this point in my life, that's me. I'm a home cook now.
Once again, thanks for all this excellent information. A
degree from the Culinary Institute, an interest that keeps
me learning, all these years, and I'd never known about
these intricacies to chocolate. A whole new world has oepned
up. I've got to start experimenting.

--Lia

Alex said:

Cold subdues the flavour of chocolate, and with the Dutch
process already subduing the flavour, the ice cream is off
to a bad start. To make matters worse, lots of cream and
milk also subdue the taste of chocolate, and so if you use
Dutch process cocoa in "chocolate" ice cream you're
essentially guaranteed to get a very pale, washed-out
taste - at best a poor shadow of chocolate.

Right. If you want intense chocolate flavor, make chocolate
sorbet instead of chocolate ice cream. Orwell posted the
following recipe which works fine for me:

Bring 2 cups water to a simmer. Whisk in 1 cup cocoa powder
and 3/4 cup sugar. Chill, then churn.

Bob

at Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:07:08 GMT in
<[email hidden]>, virtualgoth@die_spammer.com
(Bob) wrote :

Quoted message said:

Alex said:

Cold subdues the flavour of chocolate, and with the Dutch
process already subduing the flavour, the ice cream is
off to a bad start. To make matters worse, lots of cream
and milk also subdue the taste of chocolate, and so if
you use Dutch process cocoa in "chocolate" ice cream
you're essentially guaranteed to get a very pale, washed-
out taste - at best a poor shadow of chocolate.

Right. If you want intense chocolate flavor, make chocolate
sorbet instead of chocolate ice cream. Orwell posted the
following recipe which works fine for me:

Bring 2 cups water to a simmer. Whisk in 1 cup cocoa powder
and 3/4 cup sugar. Chill, then churn.

IMHO this is still really *cocoa* sorbet. Without actual
chocolate, including the cocoa butter, it doesn't really
taste like chocolate - it tastes like cocoa, which has a
distinctly different flavour. If you make your own chocolate
ice cream at home, you're not at all limited by the
strictures that govern commercial ice cream manufacturers
and you can make chocolate ice cream that actually has an
intense chocolate flavour.

--
Alex Rast [email hidden] (remove d., .7,
not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

"Franfogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If a cake recipe calls for "Dutch processed" cocoa, can
one use regular

cocoa

Quoted message said:

without a problem? I'm not sure whether there is some
necessary chemical interaction or it's just a matter of
taste. In fact, is there an actual difference in taste?
Anyone know the answer to these earthshaking

questions?

Quoted message said:

Thanks!

Fran

It helps first to know what the difference is between them.
After cocoa beans are roasted, they are crushed to separate
the nibs from the hulls. Next the nibs are ground to a
thick paste called chocolate liquor, which is cocoa butter,
plus the solids. When the cocoa butter (most of it anyway)
is extracted, the solids are pulverized, and that is
natural cocoa. Because chocolate is naturally acidic and
somewhat [censored], these flavors are more pronounces in the
natural cocoa. Dutch process (aka Dutched, or European)
cocoa takes it a step further. The Dutch process cocoa is
treated with an alkali to reduce the acidity, making it
more mild than natural cocoa. It also changes the color.
"Black" cocoa, like that used for Oreos, is an example of
extreme "Dutching". You shouldn't interchange the cocoas in
many recipes because they respond to different leaveners.
Recipes calling for baking soda will need natural cocoa,
and recipes calling for baking powder will need dutched
cocoa. If the recipe depends on the chemical reaction
between the leavener and the cocoa, it is a good idea to
use the correct one. If the recipes uses both baking soda
and baking powder, you can generally use either cocoa with
good results. That being said, you can generally get away
with subbing dutched for natural, but it is more difficult
to do so the other way around.

kimberly

Alex Rast said:

IMHO this is still really *cocoa* sorbet. Without actual
chocolate, including the cocoa butter, it doesn't really
taste like chocolate - it tastes like cocoa, which has a
distinctly different flavour. If you make your own
chocolate ice cream at home, you're not at all limited by
the strictures that govern commercial ice cream
manufacturers and you can make chocolate ice cream that
actually has an intense chocolate flavour.

And do you have such a recipe? BTW, I always look forward to
your posts--esp. when it comes to chocolate.
--
Jean B.

"Julia Altshuler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:NcL8c.9698$JO3.16108@attbi_s04... <snip>

Quoted message said:

Now. If I want to avoid those maddeningly inconsistent
results, is there some rule I should follow? I don't have
a recipe in front of me, but say I was making cookies that
call for baking powder and natural process cocoa. Would I
need to add an acid to the recipe like sour cream or
vinegar to make it work?

No, because dutched cocoa is used in recipes with baking
powder. Natural is generally paired with baking soda. In
general you can sub the dutched cocoa in any recipes that
use baking powder. Dutched cocoa does not react with baking
soda, because it is alkalized. However if the leavening
ingredient is baking soda, you can still use the dutched
cocoa if there is some other acidic ingredient in the
recipe, such as vinegar, buttermilk, soured milk, etc.

Quoted message said:

Something comes to mind. I never bake from a mix, but long
ago I learned a tip in case I ever did. That was to
substitute white wine for the water when making chocolate
cake from a mix. Apparently, something acid is very good
for bringing out the flavor of chocolate. I've noticed
that many recipes call for cultured buttermilk where
another (non-chocolate) recipe would call for fresh milk.
Sour cream, yogurt and vinegar show up in chocolate cake
recipes. Is it possible that the "add something acid to
chocolate cake recipes for best flavor" rule is based on
Dutch process cocoa?

--Lia

Using acidic ingredients, again, allows for use of baking
soda as a leavener. Ingredients like buttermilk affect the
manner in which the cake rises, making for a more tender
crumb, and a bit finer texture than recipes without it. To
substitute dutched cocoa for natural, add 1/8 tsp of acid
(cream of tarter, lemon juice, vinegar) for each 3 Tbsp of
cocoa. For better chocolate flavor in recipes calling for
either cocoa, don't sift it with the flour. Instead, warm a
small amount of water or coffee and combine it with the
cocoa. Just remember to reduce the liquid in the recipe to
adjust for the liquid used.

kimberly

"Dan Levy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Alex Rast" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

All these subtleties are exactly that - subtle. Most of
the time the

impact

Quoted message said:

on a cake won't be large, so usually experimenting with
a different type

of

Quoted message said:

cocoa won't be disastrous.

why would it have to be all one or the other for that
matter? a mix of

dutch

Quoted message said:

and regular cocoa may prove the optimal thing.

The reasons for using one or the other are chemical. One
reacts to leaveners that the other does not. You can make
adjustments if you are in a pinch, but for the best results,
use what the recipe calls for.

kimberly

Jean B. said:

Alex Rast said:

IMHO this is still really *cocoa* sorbet. Without actual
chocolate, including the cocoa butter, it doesn't really
taste like chocolate - it tastes like cocoa, which has a
distinctly different flavour. If you make your own
chocolate ice cream at home, you're not at all limited by
the strictures that govern commercial ice cream
manufacturers and you can make chocolate ice cream that
actually has an intense chocolate flavour.

And do you have such a recipe? BTW, I always look forward
to your posts--esp. when it comes to chocolate.

Here is a very nice chocolate ice cream recipe. It is
adapted from the recipe book of my Simac Gelataio ice
cream maker. I use more chocolate that the original calls
for and bittersweet instead of semisweet. I used Callebaut
most recently

Boron

Custard base 1 cup whole milk
3/4 cup sugar 4 egg yolks 3 cups heavy cream

Heat the cream, milk and sugar in a heavy-bottomed saucepan,
stirring occasionally until the sugar is dissolved and the
mixture is hot. Place the egg yolks in a bowl and whisk
briefly. Still whisking, slowly pour in about 1 cup of the
hot liquid. When the mixture is smooth, slowly pour it into
the liquid in the saucepan, whisking constantly. Cook over
medium heat, stirring constantly, until the mixture thickens
slightly and coats the back of a spoon, about 8 minutes. Be
sure not let the mixture boil at any time or will curdle.
Strain into a clean bowl. .

4 ounces bittersweet chocolate 1 ounce unsweetened chocolate
1 recipe Custard Ice Cream Base, warm

Melt the chocolate together in a saucepan over low heat,
stirring occasionally until smooth. Gradually add some of
the ice cream base to the chocolate, whisking it frequently
to keep the chocolate smooth.

Add the remaining ice cream base and cook over low heat
until the mixture is well blended. cool thoroughly (I make
this the night before).

Pour the mixture into the bowl/dasher of the machine and
freeze. Makes 1 quart.

"Jean B." <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Alex Rast said:

IMHO this is still really *cocoa* sorbet. Without actual
chocolate, including the cocoa butter, it doesn't really
taste like chocolate - it tastes like cocoa, which has a
distinctly different flavour. If you make your own
chocolate ice cream at home, you're not at all limited
by the strictures that govern commercial ice cream
manufacturers and you can

make

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

chocolate ice cream that actually has an intense
chocolate flavour.

And do you have such a recipe? BTW, I always look forward
to your posts--esp. when it comes to chocolate.
--
Jean B.

I know I'm not Alex, but for a truly intense chocolate
experience, you should try chocolate gelato. One of my
favorite recipes!

Death by Chocolate Gelato

Ingredients: 2 cups fresh whole milk 5 egg yolks
3/4 cup granulated or superfine baker's sugar 2 tablespoons
light corn syrup 4 ounces best quality bittersweet
chocolate, chopped + 2 ounces finely chopped
4/4 cup unsweetened cocoa, sifted(Dutched will blend easier
and produce a darker color)

Instructions: Pour the milk into a medium-sized, heavy
saucepan. Bring to a simmer over medium-high heat. Remove
from the heat and stir in cocoa powder. (Note: If using
natural cocoa, mix with a small amount of hot milk first,
then whisk into the remaining milk.)

In a metal bowl, whisk together the egg yolks, sugar and
corn syrup until blended. Form a kitchen towel into a ring
and place the bowl on top to prevent it from sliding around
while you whisk. Gradually pour the hot milk into the yolk
mixture, whisking constantly. Return to the same saucepan
and place over medium-low heat. Cook, stirring slowly and
continuously with a wooden spoon or spatula, until the
custard thickens and leaves a path on the back of the
spatula when a finger is drawn across it, about 6 minutes;
do not allow to boil.

Pour the custard through a medium-mesh sieve set over a
clean metal bowl. Add the chocolate and stir until the
chocolate melts. Refrigerate until cold, about 1 hour.

Transfer the custard to an ice cream maker and process
according to the manufacturer's instructions. In the
meantime, melt the additional 2 oz chocolate in a cup set in
a pan of hot water. Allow to cool some, but not set up. When
gelato is nearly finished, you're going to add the
chocolate. While ice cream maker is still churning, drizzle
in the chocolate so that it flakes into the gelato,
distributing itself throughout.

For the best texture, serve the gelato immediately. Or
transfer to a container, cover and freeze until firm, at
least 4 hours or for up to 3 days. (Note: Longer freezing
results in a texture more like that of ice cream, which is
to say, harder.)