electric bicycles commuting

Quoted post said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/business/yourmoney/06bikes.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm

Quoted post said:

Quoted post said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/business/yourmoney/06bikes.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm

"Electric bikes, popular in Asia and Europe, have yet to gain much of
a following in the United States. The number sold here is in the tens
of thousands a year, compared with 10 million in a recent year in
China."

Really? Do those numbers seem unbelievable to anyone else?

/s

Scott Gordo said:

Quoted post said:

Quoted post said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/business/yourmoney/06bikes.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm

"Electric bikes, popular in Asia and Europe, have yet to gain much of
a following in the United States. The number sold here is in the tens
of thousands a year, compared with 10 million in a recent year in
China."

Really? Do those numbers seem unbelievable to anyone else?

/s

They look like off the top of the head figures.

If one looks at them at face value based the market penetration is not
that great in China either. (Pop. 1.3 Billion)

Marcus

"In a recent internet study on a popular newsgroup it was found that
over 99% of participants owned bicycles and rode regularly."

Quoted message said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/business/yourmoney/06bikes.html

Does this mean he's not using the $4000 Segway anymore?
~

itsa dog!! heads up!!
but here's the [censored]:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations

Quoted message said:

itsa dog!! heads up!!
but here's the [censored]:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations

So the Segways are still diffusing then? Outside of occasional news
photos of polo meets in Redmond, I don't see too much about them anymore.
-----
What's a name for someone who consistently indulges in overpriced
impractical fads?
~

In article <[email hidden]>,

DougC said:

Quoted message said:

itsa dog!! heads up!!
but here's the [censored]:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations

So the Segways are still diffusing then? Outside of occasional news
photos of polo meets in Redmond, I don't see too much about them anymore.
-----
What's a name for someone who consistently indulges in overpriced
impractical fads?
~

"Triathlete"

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Geewhiz datakoll, thanks for the electrick bike story and a really
neat new in depth method of thinking about the graphical quagmire from
$4 gas/insurance-tags/ER! I was up until 2AM translating the formula
from math to lucid thought.

Hey! Noooo problem. I'm getting over the headache cawsed from sorting
out the whazzit just now and fersure a $7000 dirt bike is the cure
like all my friends who are healthy but have trouble walking would
jump at the chance let go of the whazzit's sledgeway's shovel handle
and leap onto a $7000 electrick walmart dirt bike for a quick ride
thru their nabs cow pasture.

OUTASIGHT! $2000 more than a complete Volvo or Chevy pickup rebuild is
reasonable. And think think how much more reliable the electrick bike
will be once yawl get it covered with cow manure, buckshot pellets, an
trespass warning notices.

Hey we're talkin niche here! Sweeping pathways populated by economics
professors scooting hither and yon across vast leafy campuses, new
deal concrete ramps, vast open spaces untrammeled by the grate
unwashed goin flat out to nowhere.

NO niche in your nab? No $7000 hi rollers? WELL WHAT WE NEED IS THE
WIZARD OF OZ TO STEP IN AND LEGISLATE DUDE!
WE NEED A VELO LANE! WE NEED TO GOVERN CONDEM AND BULLDOZE FROM POINT
A TO POINT C. WE NEED NEW VELO CLASS INSURANCE REGS.

REMEMBER THE HODAKA! CHARGE!

Quoted message said:

NO niche in your nab? No $7000 hi rollers? WELL WHAT WE NEED IS THE
WIZARD OF OZ TO STEP IN AND LEGISLATE DUDE!
WE NEED A VELO LANE! WE NEED TO GOVERN CONDEM AND BULLDOZE FROM POINT
A TO POINT C. WE NEED NEW VELO CLASS INSURANCE REGS.

REMEMBER THE HODAKA! CHARGE!

DAMN RIGHT!

Quoted message said:

Geewhiz datakoll, thanks for the electrick bike story and a really
neat new in depth method of thinking about the graphical quagmire from
$4 gas/insurance-tags/ER! I was up until 2AM translating the formula
from math to lucid thought.

Yea... ...Anyway, back to me...

After studying the situation, I am firmly convinced that anyplace that
only allows motorized bicycles with *electric* propulsion is a place
that is determined to keep motorized bicycles in any form from becoming
any sort of practical transportation.

If you compare the purchasing costs, operating costs and useful ranges
of electrics vs. a 4-cycle gasoline engine, you'll be pretty well
convinced too.

The only pro-electric argument that eco-electric-bikers have left is
that even a small 4-cycle engine puts out exhaust--but when catalytic
converters become available for these tiny engines, their emissions will
immediately be reduced by 80-90% (something on the order of mouse farts).
~

cute doesn.t cover the subject nor do mouse farts. there's a problem-
no oil/global warming/china coal- and a technology eg the electric
bicycle that doesn't burn air on site, the design burns air at other
removed sites.
overall, is the removed burning more efficient? I haven't done the
research nor have I heard or read any suggestion that anyone has done
so despite the concern the question is centrally relevant: maybe a
look thru google papers?
add machining production costs, metal processing costs, wear, need for
maintenance/inspection....??? the electric seams to have an advantage
in simplicity if demands placed on the available battery systems are
reasonable, prudent.
clean air in the velo lane is essential: the blue smog producing small
poorly maintained IC are notorious, despised and legislated against.
cheap, polluting but simple to keep running-keep pouring in gas and
lubricating oil then throw it away and get another. that's how the IC
won and how we got here at the end of the road. when searching for
transportation solutions, is it difficult to grip the fact the IC's
misuse bears significant responsible for our global energy problem ?
the better answer is walk which in the end is the only answer.
anyway whose 5 year plan was only allowing electrics?
some body recently ruled against bicycles! Singapore?

http://trb.metapress.com/content/957u340614257164/
http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aacarsgasa.htm

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa [censored]

In article <[email hidden]>,

DougC said:

Quoted message said:

Geewhiz datakoll, thanks for the electrick bike story and a really
neat new in depth method of thinking about the graphical quagmire from
$4 gas/insurance-tags/ER! I was up until 2AM translating the formula
from math to lucid thought.

Yea... ...Anyway, back to me...

After studying the situation, I am firmly convinced that anyplace that
only allows motorized bicycles with *electric* propulsion is a place
that is determined to keep motorized bicycles in any form from becoming
any sort of practical transportation.

If you compare the purchasing costs, operating costs and useful ranges
of electrics vs. a 4-cycle gasoline engine, you'll be pretty well
convinced too.

The only pro-electric argument that eco-electric-bikers have left is
that even a small 4-cycle engine puts out exhaust--but when catalytic
converters become available for these tiny engines, their emissions will
immediately be reduced by 80-90% (something on the order of mouse farts).

As much as I love internal combustion, I have to point out that as far
as I know, most cats only get really good performance with closed-loop
injection systems driving them.

In virtually every jurisdiction I know of, a very good gas-powered
two-wheel commuter vehicle is available: it's called the scooter. They
work very well.

There's a lot to be said for the inobtrusiveness of electric power: no
noise, no fuss.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Quoted message said:

cute doesn.t cover the subject nor do mouse farts. there's a problem-
no oil/global warming/china coal- and a technology eg the electric
bicycle that doesn't burn air on site, the design burns air at other
removed sites.
overall, is the removed burning more efficient?

Generally heat engines are more efficient the hotter you run them.
Anyway, a coal or oil power station is, last time I heard, roughly about
40% efficient and a car more like 30%. A wheezing two-stroke moped
probably less. The human body about 25%.

Obviously cars need so much fuel because they're huge and heavy compared
to bikes, even if the engine might be slightly more efficient.

But you can use nuclear power to make the electricity for the electric
bike, or in other pipe dreams, wind power, etc.

My supposition is you could make an efficient "pulse and glide" IC
engine for a bicycle sized vehicle, perhaps with electric hybrid, that
would do an mpg somewhere in the thousands-- a gallon of rapeseed oil
would last a year's commuting. More fuel efficient than cooking your
chips in the oil and riding a bike.

But the will to make such vehicles isn't there with fuel still quite
cheap. It's simple economics, and yes a "green sticker" is worth a bit
extra these days, but not a lot of $$ to most people.

Ryan Cousineau said:

As much as I love internal combustion, I have to point out that as far
as I know, most cats only get really good performance with closed-loop
injection systems driving them.

I don't know what this will take, what it will achieve or what it will
require. I have been told that manufacturers will have to do it, as it
requires careful engineering to get the cat to run at the right
temperature. California is already requiring cats on certain types of
engines but when I searched online a while back for one for my bicycle
engine, there was no company retailing small-engine replacement
cat-mufflers or any info on how to properly install them on an engine
that didn't come with one originally.

Quoted message said:

In virtually every jurisdiction I know of, a very good gas-powered
two-wheel commuter vehicle is available: it's called the scooter. They
work very well.

Yes but scooters qualify as motor vehicles, and so require licensing,
registration and insurance. If you're trying to save money (as well as
do the environment a favor), you're better off buying a motorized
bicycle that may require /none/ of those expensive things (in some
states) and probably gets better MPG besides (the best small-engined
4-cycle scooters I've read of got maybe 70 mpg; it's not unusual to see
200 mpg on a motorized bicycle).

Quoted message said:

There's a lot to be said for the inobtrusiveness of electric power: no
noise, no fuss.

Yea, unfortunately it costs more per mile to say it.
My own page on the matter:
http://tinyurl.com/ywrjrz
~

In article <[email hidden]>,

DougC said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

As much as I love internal combustion, I have to point out that as far
as I know, most cats only get really good performance with closed-loop
injection systems driving them.

I don't know what this will take, what it will achieve or what it will
require. I have been told that manufacturers will have to do it, as it
requires careful engineering to get the cat to run at the right
temperature. California is already requiring cats on certain types of
engines but when I searched online a while back for one for my bicycle
engine, there was no company retailing small-engine replacement
cat-mufflers or any info on how to properly install them on an engine
that didn't come with one originally.

Typical low-emissions ICEs use electronically controlled fuel injection
and a couple of sensors (O2, some temperature stuff) to get the fuel
mixture just right at all times. I am not aware of any sub-50cc scooters
that are using this technology, though some larger motorcycles do. The
costs would not be trivial, and a bolt-on kit would be unlikely.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In virtually every jurisdiction I know of, a very good gas-powered
two-wheel commuter vehicle is available: it's called the scooter. They
work very well.

Yes but scooters qualify as motor vehicles, and so require licensing,
registration and insurance. If you're trying to save money (as well as
do the environment a favor), you're better off buying a motorized
bicycle that may require /none/ of those expensive things (in some
states) and probably gets better MPG besides (the best small-engined
4-cycle scooters I've read of got maybe 70 mpg; it's not unusual to see
200 mpg on a motorized bicycle).

Well, and this is the crux of the matter: there's a reason gas-powered
bicycles require all of those expensive things: it's because they are
effectively scooters, or mopeds at best (depending on local legislation).

A motorized bicycle is going, absent other regulations, to be capable of
considerably greater speed than a lightweight electric bicycle. It will
also be heavier than a true bicycle, and will probably benefit,
safety-wise from having a better spec of brakes, maybe a bit of
suspension...whoops, scooter!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There's a lot to be said for the inobtrusiveness of electric power: no
noise, no fuss.

Yea, unfortunately it costs more per mile to say it.
My own page on the matter:
http://tinyurl.com/ywrjrz

Fair enough. But not actually true in practice.

What you're actually arguing is that a vehicle which is already defined
and regulated in most vehicle codes should no longer require insurance
or licensing, and I don't think that's the least bit likely to happen.
Moreover, I don't think, given the real performance differences, and
frankly, the noise, that you're going to be allowed to use bike
facilities on such a thing either.

BC is on the leading edge of the curve for legislation allowing small
electric motors on bikes. Even here, they are sharply limited in speed
and power if they are to be considered as bicycles, and not motor
scooters. The limitations are so strict that a fair number of "electric
bicycles" cheat the regulations, effectively obeying the speed
limitation (no electric assist over 32 km/h, I think), but ignoring the
rather low power output limit.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

The gas advocate and mouse farts:
Weigh the apparently small cubic footage of pollution against the real
time blue air effects from unburned hydrocarbon droplets, burned
gases, and particulates

100*5000*60=30000000 [ 100cc x rpm ]
30000000
30 000 000 cubic centimeter = 1 059.439 997 167 cubic foot
1 059.439 997 167*365=386695.598965955 [ days used ]
386695.598965955*100000=38669559896.5955 [ days used x users ]
38 669 559 896.595 5 cubic foot = 0.262 704 47 cubic mile
0.262 704 47/4=0.0656761175 (4 stroke) cubic mile pollution
0.262 704 47/2=0.131352235 (2 stroke )

DougC said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/business/yourmoney/06bikes.html

Does this mean he's not using the $4000 Segway anymore?
~

Wow, a climb to 9,800 feet! Incredible. What the article fails to
mention is that his route gains only 600 feet in ten miles -- at least
on the bike trail. http://tinyurl.com/2hv89p For that he needs a $7K
electric bike? God, just ride a conventional bike, get some exercise,
see the sights and pocket $5K or more. Look out for the kiddies with
streamers. -- Jay Beattie.

baum has a hernia

what do you think of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

baum has a hernia

what do you think of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations

Personally, I'm against it.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos