electric bikes

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Murphy (') said:

Quoted message said:

For the same price as a Twist, you could buy a non-assist bike which
was much faster on the flat.

Agreed but to be fair people also pay extra money for additional
features that make things more pleasant (eg electric windows on a car
which seem almost standard these days). There's no denying power assist
is an extra feature which makes things more pleasant.

That's precisely what I am denying. It's an extra feature which makes the
bike more awkward while you're riding it, and very much more awkward to
manhandle when you're off it - up steps, into buildings, on and off
trains, or whatever; and does not seem to offer any commensurate
benefit.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Hobbit ringleader gives Sauron One in the Eye.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Murphy (') said:

Quoted message said:

For the same price as a Twist, you could buy a non-assist bike which
was much faster on the flat.

Agreed but to be fair people also pay extra money for additional
features that make things more pleasant (eg electric windows on a car
which seem almost standard these days). There's no denying power
assist is an extra feature which makes things more pleasant.

That's precisely what I am denying. It's an extra feature which makes
the bike more awkward while you're riding it, and very much more
awkward to manhandle when you're off it - up steps, into buildings,
on and off trains, or whatever; and does not seem to offer any
commensurate benefit.

I'd also worry about pedalling one of these bikes uphill after the battery
has run out, and not only in terms of weight. What is the gearing and
general efficiency and stiffness like?

How many miles do the batteries do, by the way? I could imagine enjoying
the power assist so much (if I could bypass the speed limiter!:-) that I'd
just keep going until the juice ran out.

~PB

In article said:

I'd also worry about pedalling one of these bikes uphill after the battery
has run out, and not only in terms of weight. What is the gearing and
general efficiency and stiffness like?

How long is a piece of string? Some of them are utterly dire, but you
could add a front wheel hub motor onto a bike with whatever gearing
you wanted. Bikes where the motor uses the gearing usefully are rare
though.

Quoted message said:

How many miles do the batteries do, by the way?

How long is another piece of string? Depends on the batteries, the
terrain, and how much you pedal and how much you just sit there.

But, in general, not long enough to be useful to someone who enjoys
going on a long cycle ride for the fun of it, but long enough for
a commute (at least in one direction). (And yes, many of those commutes
could be done perfectly well without an assist, but some will be more
comfortable or faster or otherwise more practical to do more often with
an assist.)

There are also short-range high-power off-road only vehicles out there,
but I can't see any of the road-legal ones being used for recreational
riding. At least not for solo rides - for a weaker or injured rider
keeping up with fitter riders it might be useful.

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Murphy (') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>,
Paul Murphy ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

> "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> You have to be /joking/. I, fifty and with chronic circulation
>> problems, could beat any legal electric bike on any course, without
>> difficulty. People in my club can do time trials at 10Km/h faster
>> than me. Time trialling, my speed rarely drops down below 25Km/h, so
>> there is almost no time that the motor could legally assist - not
>> even up the hills. All the time it isn't assisting, it's just extra
>> weight and extra drag. You'd have to be an exceptionally poor
>> cyclist to do as badly on a good quality normal bike as you would on
>> a 'yellow dream'.
>
> Any course eh?

Any course, certainly. The hillier the course the more certain I am
I'd be faster on a good road bike. The point is that as the speed
never drops to a point where the motor could legally assist, it would
be off all the time.

But the speed would drop on a very steep long hill. There are plenty
around here where it would. Are you familiar with High Wycombe, a place
not to far from where I live - cyclists dropping below 15 mph would be
the norm in places around there.

I am familiar with High Wycombe. The hill behind my house is just as
steep and substantially more than three times as high. One of the local
time trial courses which I ride regularly has as much vertical rise as
the High Wycombe hill. And?

Hill as in singular, there many hills, both high and steep around there and
they didn't include High in the name for nothing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you're saying this isn't possible
then is it because you believe no hill is steep enough or long enough to
do that to you on your lightweight bike?

It's a matter of whether what you get back is worth what you have to put
in. Certainly there are (many) hills which slow me below 15mph; but not
enough to make it worth lugging the motor around for the rest of the
time.

What rest of the time, if there lots of those hills and lots of stopping and
starting with only a few long flat bits to leg stretch then that would be a
course where an electric bike could have a clear advantage.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

What do you claim is not 'like for like' about it? What does a 'yellow
dream' cost?

We've gone down this path before and for one thing the looks, style is a
very individual thing but does your bike have Italian styling that looks
like this: http://www.petrol.free.fr/ElectricShop/index.htm

What I could see on the Dolan website, to my mind looked far more boring
than the yellow dream. Would it get as much street cred from casual
observers who see you riding by (not that this is important to everyone).
The above website mentions 4500 Euros but I don't know the street price of
one - its sure to be expensive though. If you want to make a like for like
comparison based on price, this misses the point that electric bikes have
additional functionality which needs to be paid for but which may not make
the bike look different. Electric windows in cars still make the same
windows go up and down, they just do it more stylishly than manual winders
and that luxury comes at a price.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I can sustain 160 watts for half an hour. I know this, because that's
what I need to do to achieve the time trial times which I do achieve. I
am not an exceptional person. I am an ordinary fairly lazy middle aged
man. And I don't mean I can do 160 watts for half an hour and then be
completely knackered - I normally ride to time trials and ride home
again afterwards. Members of my club regularly achieve times which imply
350 watts for half an hour, although the people who can are fairly
athletic.

But the idea you need to be exceptional to ride a bike up a hill is just
false.

I agree and wouldn't suggest such a notion.

Paul

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Murphy (') said:

> For the same price as a Twist, you could buy a non-assist bike which
> was much faster on the flat.
Agreed but to be fair people also pay extra money for additional
features that make things more pleasant (eg electric windows on a car
which seem almost standard these days). There's no denying power
assist is an extra feature which makes things more pleasant.

That's precisely what I am denying. It's an extra feature which makes
the bike more awkward while you're riding it, and very much more
awkward to manhandle when you're off it - up steps, into buildings,
on and off trains, or whatever; and does not seem to offer any
commensurate benefit.

It would only make the bike more awkward if the power assist wasn't properly
implemented. The AtoB review of the Giant Twist mentions that its a pleasant
bike to ride and I agree. Many electric bikes have removable batteries so if
needed the battery could be carried up the flight of stairs seperately
albeit necessitating a second trip. This is really something more relevant
with older and heavier lead acid technology though. When I need to manhandle
my Twist I sometimes do this and the difference is noticible mainly in terms
of changing the centre of gravity or (crudely) pivoting position of the bike
when picked up.

The benifit (which I and many other owners believe is commensurate) is the
power assist on tap.

Quoted message said:

I'd also worry about pedalling one of these bikes uphill after the battery
has run out, and not only in terms of weight. What is the gearing and
general efficiency and stiffness like?

I certainly would too if it was a £290 elcheapo model (even if from one of
the biggest suppliers in the UK). Others are a different story however. The
answer to all of these (and the below) questions depends which bike is
chosen. It would certainly be helpful for you to post your list of what you
want the bike to do and what you want to use it for etc.

Quoted message said:

How many miles do the batteries do, by the way? I could imagine enjoying
the power assist so much (if I could bypass the speed limiter!:-) that I'd
just keep going until the juice ran out.

The problem is that drag (wind resistance) increases with the the square of
the speed. If you allowed the motor to operate way beyond 15 mph
(reclassifying it as a motorvehicle in the process) then you need to use
that same amount more power to achieve the speed so battery use would go up.
I've heard that changing the rear sprocket to one with 1 or 2 fewer teeth on
a Giant Twist can reduce its range by over 10 % if that extra power assist
speed is taken advantage of.

Paul

Paul Murphy said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

What do you claim is not 'like for like' about it? What does a 'yellow
dream' cost?

We've gone down this path before and for one thing the looks, style is a
very individual thing but does your bike have Italian styling that looks
like this: http://www.petrol.free.fr/ElectricShop/index.htm

That does look good. The pic does seem to be inverted left-to-right, though.

Quoted message said:

What I could see on the Dolan website, to my mind looked far more boring
than the yellow dream. Would it get as much street cred from casual
observers who see you riding by (not that this is important to everyone).

Looks are always going to be a matter of taste, but I would not call
this boring looking:
http://www.bikes-dolan.uk.com/media/Cabon-Lo-Pro-1.jpg
and it hasn't even been built into a bike!
I have to admit to some bias, as I have three Dolan bikes.

Anyway, what I have noticed is that people only seem to be impressed by
the looks of something they recognize. A friend of mine got a chorus of
"Look - a Specialized. Nice bike mate" calls riding a gaspipe special
with a Specialized sticker on the headtube. I was riding a Merlin and
got no comment.

JimP

--
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to
grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after
all. - DNA

i artikel [email hidden], skrev Paul
Murphy på [email hidden] den 06-05-23 19.37:

Quoted message said:

If you want to make a like for like
comparison based on price, this misses the point that electric bikes have
additional functionality which needs to be paid for

I'm suprised you're still saying this after we have discussed it so much.
You are conceding that an electric bike is heavier and more expensive, but
at the same time trying to deny that the same money could be put toward a
very light and efficient unpowered bike. The extra functionality in the
light unpowered bike is that it's so light and efficient. Thus, both and
neither bike are "extra" and should be compared at the same price.

That it's okay for the electric bike to get the same performance at a higher
price is simply unfair. You have to compare bikes which cost the same.

Quoted message said:

Electric windows in cars still make the same
windows go up and down, they just do it more stylishly than manual winders
and that luxury comes at a price.

I don't feel this is relevant to the discussion but I'll reply anyway :-)
It's not a matter of style, it's simply difficult to keep your eye on the
road and wind the windows up at the same time, since your head bobs with
your shoulder.

--
Erik Sandblom
my site is EriksRailNews.com
for those who don't believe, no explanation is possible
for those who do, no explanation is necessary

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Murphy (') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Murphy (') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> in message <[email hidden]>,
> Paul Murphy ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:
>
>> "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>> You have to be /joking/. I, fifty and with chronic circulation
>>> problems, could beat any legal electric bike on any course,
>>> without difficulty. People in my club can do time trials at 10Km/h
>>> faster than me. Time trialling, my speed rarely drops down below
>>> 25Km/h, so there is almost no time that the motor could legally
>>> assist - not even up the hills. All the time it isn't assisting,
>>> it's just extra weight and extra drag. You'd have to be an
>>> exceptionally poor cyclist to do as badly on a good quality normal
>>> bike as you would on a 'yellow dream'.
>>
>> Any course eh?
>
> Any course, certainly. The hillier the course the more certain I am
> I'd be faster on a good road bike. The point is that as the speed
> never drops to a point where the motor could legally assist, it
> would be off all the time.

But the speed would drop on a very steep long hill. There are plenty
around here where it would. Are you familiar with High Wycombe, a
place not to far from where I live - cyclists dropping below 15 mph
would be the norm in places around there.

I am familiar with High Wycombe. The hill behind my house is just as
steep and substantially more than three times as high. One of the
local time trial courses which I ride regularly has as much vertical
rise as the High Wycombe hill. And?

Hill as in singular, there many hills, both high and steep around there
and they didn't include High in the name for nothing.

I don't particularly wish to start another hare running. I'm not greatly
impressed by what people in the Thames Valley refer to as 'hills'. All
things are relative. In a land of pigmies, medium sized people look
tall.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's a matter of whether what you get back is worth what you have to
put in. Certainly there are (many) hills which slow me below 15mph;
but not enough to make it worth lugging the motor around for the rest
of the time.

What rest of the time, if there lots of those hills and lots of
stopping and starting with only a few long flat bits to leg stretch
then that would be a course where an electric bike could have a clear
advantage.

Going up Mennock Water, one of my favourite local routes, the road climbs
400 metres in 14Km of continuous climb, to the highest village in
Britain. Suppose you used your motor up that, how much would be left for
the 170 metres of Green Hill Stairs, further along the same road?
Alternatively, you could turn right in Wanlockhead and go on up to Green
Lowther, for a continuous climb of 650 metres in under 20Km. Last
Sunday's gentle morning club run involved 300 metres of climbing (two
hills) in about 35 or 40Km of riding (three hours); tonight's off road
time trial (35 minutes) involved three laps of a loop with 75 metres of
height gain between the bottom of the loop and the top.

This is the fallacy of a electric assist bike. It might help you on a
hilly route if it had infinite battery capacity, or if someone was
following you in a car with spare batteries. But in practice it wouldn't
help much, because even on a route as hilly as that perfectly normal
unathletic cyclists sustain average speeds which are close to the legal
limit for such devices anyway. Yes, we may go a little slower up the
hills than we would on an electric assist bike with a fully charged
battery, but we go a heck of a lot faster than we would on an electric
assist bike with a flat battery.

You may now want to say that where I live is 'too hilly' for an electric
bike. Bollocks. If it doesn't work on the flat and it doesn't work in
the hills, where does it work?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What do you claim is not 'like for like' about it? What does a 'yellow
dream' cost?

We've gone down this path before and for one thing the looks, style is
a very individual thing but does your bike have Italian styling that
looks like this: http://www.petrol.free.fr/ElectricShop/index.htm

What I could see on the Dolan website, to my mind looked far more
boring than the yellow dream.

My bike is as nearly as possible a purely functional machine. Form
follows function; if a component isn't perfectly honed to its function,
it isn't there. I don't want 'styling'. I want efficiency. It may look
'boring' to you, but it gets me up hills faster and in more comfort.

Quoted message said:

Would it get as much street cred from
casual observers who see you riding by (not that this is important to
everyone). The above website mentions 4500 Euros but I don't know the
street price of one - its sure to be expensive though.

So it's roughly the price of my Dolan and my Cannondale put together.
That's two very expensive, very capable bikes. If I could spend 4,500
Euros on a single bike, I could trim at least another third off the
weight of my Dolan.

Quoted message said:

If you want to
make a like for like comparison based on price, this misses the point
that electric bikes have additional functionality which needs to be
paid for but which may not make the bike look different.

What is this added functionality you keep talking about? It doesn't make
the bike faster, for a normally fit user - in fact, quite the opposite.
It doesn't increase its range, for a normally fit rider - in fact, quite
the opposite. It doesn't make the bike more reliable. It may have a
slight advantage on unusually steep hills but that has to be paid for by
a disadvantage on normal hills.

Electric assist is a classic white elephant. It adds nothing useful, but
has substantial costs.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Let's have a moment of silence for all those Americans who are stuck
;; in traffic on their way to the gym to ride the stationary bicycle.
;; Rep. Earl Blumenauer (Dem, OR)

in message <[email hidden]>, Jim Price

(') said:

Paul Murphy said:

What I could see on the Dolan website, to my mind looked far more
boring than the yellow dream. Would it get as much street cred from
casual observers who see you riding by (not that this is important to
everyone).

Looks are always going to be a matter of taste, but I would not call
this boring looking:
http://www.bikes-dolan.uk.com/media/Cabon-Lo-Pro-1.jpg
and it hasn't even been built into a bike!

Uh-huh. Ain't it pretty? This is what it (or a slightly earlier version
of it) looks like when it /is/ built into a bike:

http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story?article=41

Yes, I know it's intended as a time trial frame. It makes a very nice
audax bike, and I do time trial on it.

Quoted message said:

I have to admit to some bias, as I have three Dolan bikes.

Lucky beast!

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; part time troll.

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Murphy (') said:

Quoted message said:

I'd also worry about pedalling one of these bikes uphill after the
battery
has run out, and not only in terms of weight. What is the gearing and
general efficiency and stiffness like?

I certainly would too if it was a £290 elcheapo model (even if from
one of the biggest suppliers in the UK). Others are a different story
however. The answer to all of these (and the below) questions depends
which bike is chosen. It would certainly be helpful for you to post
your list of what you want the bike to do and what you want to use it
for etc.

Well, I think that's the telling one.

I want my bike to be able to nip into the post office or to get a pint of
milk (25 Km round trip, typically 120 metres total climb depending on
route), time trial (typically 48Km round trip involving 16Km of racing
on the same bike), social rides with friends (typically 60Km and, around
here, anything up to 1000 metres total climb), and occasional day trips
(typically 160Km involving 1000 - 3000 metres total climb).

I can do all that, on the same bike. I do not believe you could find a
single electric assist bike which could do half of it.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for
murther
-- Roburt Burns, 'Thanksgiving For a National Victory'

i artikel [email hidden], skrev Simon
Brooke på [email hidden] den 06-05-24 00.36:

Quoted message said:

Uh-huh. Ain't it pretty? This is what it (or a slightly earlier version
of it) looks like when it /is/ built into a bike:

http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story?article=41

Beautiful.

Forgive my ignorance, but there are no mudguards. Does it not rain where you
live?

--
Erik Sandblom
my site is EriksRailNews.com
for those who don't believe, no explanation is possible
for those who do, no explanation is necessary

i artikel [email hidden], skrev Simon
Brooke på [email hidden] den 06-05-24 00.48:

Quoted message said:

I want my bike to be able to nip into the post office or to get a pint of
milk (25 Km round trip, typically 120 metres total climb depending on
route), time trial (typically 48Km round trip involving 16Km of racing
on the same bike), social rides with friends (typically 60Km and, around
here, anything up to 1000 metres total climb), and occasional day trips
(typically 160Km involving 1000 - 3000 metres total climb).

I can do all that, on the same bike. I do not believe you could find a
single electric assist bike which could do half of it.

And this is what you use your Cannondale and Dolan for? Do you leave them
outside the supermarket, or do they let you bring them in the store?

--
Erik Sandblom
my site is EriksRailNews.com
for those who don't believe, no explanation is possible
for those who do, no explanation is necessary

in message <[email hidden]>, Erik Sandblom

(') said:

i artikel [email hidden], skrev Simon
Brooke på [email hidden] den 06-05-24 00.36:

Quoted message said:

Uh-huh. Ain't it pretty? This is what it (or a slightly earlier
version of it) looks like when it /is/ built into a bike:

http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story?article=41

Beautiful.

Forgive my ignorance, but there are no mudguards. Does it not rain
where you live?

It does rain where I live - rather frequently, in fact. But I loathe
mudguards, so I don't have them.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn.
;; Jim Morrison

in message <[email hidden]>, Erik Sandblom

(') said:

i artikel [email hidden], skrev Simon
Brooke på [email hidden] den 06-05-24 00.48:

Quoted message said:

I want my bike to be able to nip into the post office or to get a pint
of milk (25 Km round trip, typically 120 metres total climb depending
on route), time trial (typically 48Km round trip involving 16Km of
racing on the same bike), social rides with friends (typically 60Km
and, around here, anything up to 1000 metres total climb), and
occasional day trips (typically 160Km involving 1000 - 3000 metres
total climb).

And this is what you use your Cannondale and Dolan for? Do you leave
them outside the supermarket, or do they let you bring them in the
store?

I leave the Dolan at the bike shop - I trust them to look after it - and
walk round to the post office or the co-op. I rarely lock it, although
crime is not a major problem around here, because it would be too easy
for idiots to damage it while trying to steal it.

The Cannondale very rarely touches tarmac.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Iraq war: it's time for regime change...
... go now, Tony, while you can still go with dignity.
[update 18 months after this .sig was written: it's still relevant]

"Erik Sandblom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

i artikel [email hidden], skrev Paul
Murphy på [email hidden] den 06-05-23 19.37:

Quoted message said:

If you want to make a like for like
comparison based on price, this misses the point that electric bikes have
additional functionality which needs to be paid for

I'm suprised you're still saying this after we have discussed it so much.
You are conceding that an electric bike is heavier and more expensive, but
at the same time trying to deny that the same money could be put toward a
very light and efficient unpowered bike. The extra functionality in the
light unpowered bike is that it's so light and efficient.

But it still wont go up steep hills as effortlessly (the motor power more
than makes up for its added weight with lots to spare) or cover a journey
hauling shopping or a trailer for example as conveniently.

Quoted message said:

Thus, both and neither bike are "extra" and should be compared at the same
price.

That it's okay for the electric bike to get the same performance at a
higher
price is simply unfair. You have to compare bikes which cost the same.

My point is that there are many circumstances where electric bikes *will*
outperform non-power assisted bikes of similar styling and riding them will
be much more comfortable and make you less sweaty if desired (e.g. cycling
to work). Sure there are also some situations where riders who regularly
travel above 15 mph continuously, on very long journeys above about 20
miles, or on flat journeys will not benefit much (other than when starting).
Just as with the electric window example on cars, in years to come electric
bikes will also be even more significant in the sales rankings (although
there has already been a sales boom over the last year).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Electric windows in cars still make the same
windows go up and down, they just do it more stylishly than manual
winders
and that luxury comes at a price.

I don't feel this is relevant to the discussion but I'll reply anyway :-)
It's not a matter of style, it's simply difficult to keep your eye on the
road and wind the windows up at the same time, since your head bobs with
your shoulder.

Shall I use the example of central locking in cars then? You still get
advantages which aren't really "performance" related but which people still
go for in their droves for "other" reasons. Can we both agree that there are
things people pay for on cars, bikes, whatever which aren't performance
related. If you're saying that the power assistance on electric bikes can
solely be considered a performance issue, I disagree, its also a
convenience, flexibility and a style/image issue (things which a similarly
priced unpowered bike wont offer to the same extent) in my situation
flexibility is the main benefit.

Paul

Paul Murphy said:

Quoted message said:

While the gap is reducing, at
the moment any battery with reasonable range is not "minimal". (But then
nor is 200W the "insignificant" power that Simon has claimed.)

Lithium Polymer is significantly lighter than both Ni MH and Li Ion and does
give that range at "minimal" weight (in my view) but then its also about
twice the price currently.

What commercially available UK road legal electric assisted bikes offer
Lithium Polymer batteries as an option? How many of them make economic
sense compared to a moped or small motorbike?

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Murphy (') said:

"Erik Sandblom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

i artikel [email hidden], skrev
Paul
Murphy på [email hidden] den 06-05-23 19.37:

Quoted message said:

If you want to make a like for like
comparison based on price, this misses the point that electric bikes
have additional functionality which needs to be paid for

I'm suprised you're still saying this after we have discussed it so
much. You are conceding that an electric bike is heavier and more
expensive, but at the same time trying to deny that the same money
could be put toward a very light and efficient unpowered bike. The
extra functionality in the light unpowered bike is that it's so light
and efficient.

But it still wont go up steep hills as effortlessly (the motor power
more than makes up for its added weight with lots to spare)

Try it just once, on a really good road bike - one costing as much as
your electric assist - and then say that. You will be very surprised.

Quoted message said:

Shall I use the example of central locking in cars then? You still get
advantages which aren't really "performance" related but which people
still go for in their droves for "other" reasons. Can we both agree
that there are things people pay for on cars, bikes, whatever which
aren't performance related.

I think the real comparison is urban 4x4s. People buy them because they
think they're 'safer' than conventional cars (they aren't, on the
contrary, but people think they are), or because they think that they
may one day make journeys which would need the extra off-road capability
(but they never do). The 4x4s are more expensive, less nimble in
traffic, less fuel efficient, have more parts to service and maintain,
require more expensive tyres than conventional hatchbacks - the list of
disadvantages goes on and on. And yet people go on buying them. It's a
triumph of marketing over common sense.

Just like electric assist bikes, really.

Quoted message said:

If you're saying that the power assistance
on electric bikes can solely be considered a performance issue, I
disagree, its also a convenience, flexibility and a style/image issue
(things which a similarly priced unpowered bike wont offer to the same
extent) in my situation flexibility is the main benefit.

But you have less flexibility, not more. On longer rides, once the range
of the battery is exhausted, you have a substantially heavier and less
efficient vehicle. So you effectively can't do longer rides, or at least
you need another bike. Same goes for hillier rides. Instead of a vehicle
you can lift with one finger, you have something which is awkward or
impossible to manhandle up a flight of steps. So you can't easily take
it on a journey involving a rail connection, for example, or take it
indoors when visiting a friend's flat. And so on.

As for 'style/image', I really am not going to comment.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This .sig intentionally left blank ]

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Murphy (') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul
Murphy ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

> "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> in message <[email hidden]>,
>> Paul Murphy ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:
>>
>>> "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>> You have to be /joking/. I, fifty and with chronic circulation
>>>> problems, could beat any legal electric bike on any course,
>>>> without difficulty. People in my club can do time trials at 10Km/h
>>>> faster than me. Time trialling, my speed rarely drops down below
>>>> 25Km/h, so there is almost no time that the motor could legally
>>>> assist - not even up the hills. All the time it isn't assisting,
>>>> it's just extra weight and extra drag. You'd have to be an
>>>> exceptionally poor cyclist to do as badly on a good quality normal
>>>> bike as you would on a 'yellow dream'.
>>>
>>> Any course eh?
>>
>> Any course, certainly. The hillier the course the more certain I am
>> I'd be faster on a good road bike. The point is that as the speed
>> never drops to a point where the motor could legally assist, it
>> would be off all the time.
>
> But the speed would drop on a very steep long hill. There are plenty
> around here where it would. Are you familiar with High Wycombe, a
> place not to far from where I live - cyclists dropping below 15 mph
> would be the norm in places around there.

I am familiar with High Wycombe. The hill behind my house is just as
steep and substantially more than three times as high. One of the
local time trial courses which I ride regularly has as much vertical
rise as the High Wycombe hill. And?

Hill as in singular, there many hills, both high and steep around there
and they didn't include High in the name for nothing.

I don't particularly wish to start another hare running. I'm not greatly
impressed by what people in the Thames Valley refer to as 'hills'. All
things are relative. In a land of pigmies, medium sized people look
tall.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's a matter of whether what you get back is worth what you have to
put in. Certainly there are (many) hills which slow me below 15mph;
but not enough to make it worth lugging the motor around for the rest
of the time.

What rest of the time, if there lots of those hills and lots of
stopping and starting with only a few long flat bits to leg stretch
then that would be a course where an electric bike could have a clear
advantage.

Going up Mennock Water, one of my favourite local routes, the road climbs
400 metres in 14Km of continuous climb, to the highest village in
Britain. Suppose you used your motor up that, how much would be left for
the 170 metres of Green Hill Stairs, further along the same road?
Alternatively, you could turn right in Wanlockhead and go on up to Green
Lowther, for a continuous climb of 650 metres in under 20Km. Last
Sunday's gentle morning club run involved 300 metres of climbing (two
hills) in about 35 or 40Km of riding (three hours); tonight's off road
time trial (35 minutes) involved three laps of a loop with 75 metres of
height gain between the bottom of the loop and the top.

This is the fallacy of a electric assist bike. It might help you on a
hilly route if it had infinite battery capacity, or if someone was
following you in a car with spare batteries.

Or if the distance up the hill on your journey doesn't exceed the range of
the bikes battery - unlikely for most commuting journeys although "touring"
or the above sort of riding may go beyond that range, especially if these
journeys are done all in one go (14 km + 20 km + 40 km = 74 km, well beyond
the range of many electric bikes).

Quoted message said:

But in practice it wouldn't
help much, because even on a route as hilly as that perfectly normal
unathletic cyclists sustain average speeds which are close to the legal
limit for such devices anyway. Yes, we may go a little slower up the
hills than we would on an electric assist bike with a fully charged
battery, but we go a heck of a lot faster than we would on an electric
assist bike with a flat battery.

As long as the speed is below 15 mph, that's within the speed envelope when
power assistance operates. The level of assistance provided will be
dependant on the individual bike, and in many cases a selection made by the
rider such as 'on' or 'eco'. On an extremely long journey well beyond the
battery range see my suggestion below.

Quoted message said:

You may now want to say that where I live is 'too hilly' for an electric
bike. Bollocks. If it doesn't work on the flat and it doesn't work in
the hills, where does it work?

I don't want to say that at all. You would just need a spare battery to take
with you.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What do you claim is not 'like for like' about it? What does a 'yellow
dream' cost?

We've gone down this path before and for one thing the looks, style is
a very individual thing but does your bike have Italian styling that
looks like this: http://www.petrol.free.fr/ElectricShop/index.htm

What I could see on the Dolan website, to my mind looked far more
boring than the yellow dream.

My bike is as nearly as possible a purely functional machine. Form
follows function; if a component isn't perfectly honed to its function,
it isn't there. I don't want 'styling'. I want efficiency. It may look
'boring' to you, but it gets me up hills faster and in more comfort.

Fair enough if styling isn't for you, a minority of people wont place any
value on styling. I agree that efficiency is very important but often the
two can both be in the same package. Now I can't comment first hand as to
how much this is the case with the yellow dream because I've never owned or
ridden one and don't have that much money to spend but ideas like the
batteries being housed within the frame suggest this bike has received allot
of thought towards both style and efficiency. I presume your "faster and in
more comfort" comment above relates to your perception of most electric
bikes rather than from first hand knowledge or experience with the yellow
dream.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Would it get as much street cred from
casual observers who see you riding by (not that this is important to
everyone). The above website mentions 4500 Euros but I don't know the
street price of one - its sure to be expensive though.

So it's roughly the price of my Dolan and my Cannondale put together.
That's two very expensive, very capable bikes. If I could spend 4,500
Euros on a single bike, I could trim at least another third off the
weight of my Dolan.

As I mentioned I don't know the street price that you could actually expect
to pay for one - I just plucked that figure off the French page I referred
to. If you buy one in Italy where they're made, the price may again vary. I
don't know if they are avail in the UK. Although the money could be
alternatively spent reducing the weight of a conventional bike, there would
be a point of diminishing returns in doing this (you cant make it weigh
nothing after all - although at that price add on helium balloons do come to
mind ;-) )

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you want to
make a like for like comparison based on price, this misses the point
that electric bikes have additional functionality which needs to be
paid for but which may not make the bike look different.

What is this added functionality you keep talking about?

I'm talking about the fact that the electric bikes I have in mind smooth out
the level of input needed by typical cyclists in hilly environments or when
lots of stopping and starting is called for.

Quoted message said:

It doesn't make the bike faster, for a normally fit user - in fact, quite
the opposite.

That will depend on the choice of bike but its clear we disagree on this
one.

Quoted message said:

It doesn't increase its range, for a normally fit rider - in fact, quite
the opposite. It doesn't make the bike more reliable. It may have a
slight advantage on unusually steep hills but that has to be paid for by
a disadvantage on normal hills.

The hills may need to be unusually steep for you but there will be many
people who will generally find it an advantage on more moderate hills with
the right electric bike where they have no desire to go faster than 15 mph
up the hill bearing in mind they can do so if reqd, just solely under their
own effort.

Quoted message said:

Electric assist is a classic white elephant. It adds nothing useful, but
has substantial costs.

The above advantages I've mentioned are very useful, there is an extra price
to pay for these advantages over similar looking/styled bikes which don't
have them though. Not at all a white elephant so its another thing we
disagree on.

Paul

wafflycat said:

Sigh...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Has your lad been seduced by the quest, nay obsession, to go faster
and faster, and its now speed that matters?
Is this why you are being seen all over the country?

Sigh... No, it's about nothing more than maintaining his interest by
being able to cycle on different terrain, different courses, meet
different people... just to keep interest going
It's called having fun.

Of course it can be fun.
I wouldn't ride TTs if they weren't.

But if you are not interested in personal bests or beating fellow
competitors then all that is left is driving the length and breadth of
the country to ride up and down major roads and dual carriageways,
followed by listening to every excuse under the sun from hoards of
elderly gentlemenn supping tea ;-)

All my clubmates who ride TTs want to either beat each other or their
previous best time.

Quoted message said:

sigh...

You should get that seen too ;-)

tt

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Murphy (') said:

Quoted message said:

I'd also worry about pedalling one of these bikes uphill after the
battery
has run out, and not only in terms of weight. What is the gearing and
general efficiency and stiffness like?

I certainly would too if it was a 290 elcheapo model (even if from
one of the biggest suppliers in the UK). Others are a different story
however. The answer to all of these (and the below) questions depends
which bike is chosen. It would certainly be helpful for you to post
your list of what you want the bike to do and what you want to use it
for etc.

Well, I think that's the telling one.

If you're saying the cheaper bikes tend to weigh allot more than non power
assisted ones, I definitely agree but in most cases I would not recommend
buyers choose those. I'd suggest they buy a higher quality power assisted
bike where the difference is much slimmer.

Quoted message said:

I want my bike to be able to nip into the post office or to get a pint of
milk (25 Km round trip, typically 120 metres total climb depending on
route), time trial (typically 48Km round trip involving 16Km of racing
on the same bike), social rides with friends (typically 60Km and, around
here, anything up to 1000 metres total climb), and occasional day trips
(typically 160Km involving 1000 - 3000 metres total climb).

I can do all that, on the same bike. I do not believe you could find a
single electric assist bike which could do half of it.

Uncommon usage and I dare say very different to the OPs intended use. Some
of those trips could be done as is (depending on the power assisted bike
chosen) but it would depend how many spare batteries that you were willing
to take with you or whether there were charging points (with chargers if you
didn't bring one) and the time availability, along the way for others
(assuming you wanted to do all these things under power assistance -
otherwise any power assisted bike could cope with all of them - as long as
you could!). It would depend on the typical speeds in the time trial as to
whether a power assisted bike would offer any significant speed advantage
due to the legal 15 mph restriction beyond which power assistance must not
occur.

Paul