UK and Europe · Public discussion

electric bikes

Started by Pete · · Last activity · 163 posts · 7,848 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
UK and Europe
Published
15 May 2006
Last activity
14 March 2013
Original author
Pete
Posts
163
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
7,848
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 81–100 of 163
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

    Murphy (') said:

    "Erik Sandblom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    i artikel [email hidden], skrev
    Paul
    Murphy p [email hidden] den 06-05-23 19.37:

    > If you want to make a like for like
    > comparison based on price, this misses the point that electric bikes
    > have additional functionality which needs to be paid for

    I'm suprised you're still saying this after we have discussed it so
    much. You are conceding that an electric bike is heavier and more
    expensive, but at the same time trying to deny that the same money
    could be put toward a very light and efficient unpowered bike. The
    extra functionality in the light unpowered bike is that it's so light
    and efficient.

    But it still wont go up steep hills as effortlessly (the motor power
    more than makes up for its added weight with lots to spare)

    Try it just once, on a really good road bike - one costing as much as
    your electric assist - and then say that. You will be very surprised.

    So which good quality electric bike (with a powerplant designed to transfer
    its power through the geared drivetrain) have you tried this with?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Shall I use the example of central locking in cars then? You still get
    advantages which aren't really "performance" related but which people
    still go for in their droves for "other" reasons. Can we both agree
    that there are things people pay for on cars, bikes, whatever which
    aren't performance related.

    I think the real comparison is urban 4x4s. People buy them because they
    think they're 'safer' than conventional cars (they aren't, on the
    contrary, but people think they are), or because they think that they
    may one day make journeys which would need the extra off-road capability
    (but they never do). The 4x4s are more expensive, less nimble in
    traffic, less fuel efficient, have more parts to service and maintain,
    require more expensive tyres than conventional hatchbacks - the list of
    disadvantages goes on and on. And yet people go on buying them. It's a
    triumph of marketing over common sense.

    I wouldn't make that comparison at all and feel THAT would be irrelevant.
    Can we agree on my above point (I forgot a ? on the end)?

    Quoted message said:

    Just like electric assist bikes, really.

    Incorrect.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If you're saying that the power assistance
    on electric bikes can solely be considered a performance issue, I
    disagree, its also a convenience, flexibility and a style/image issue
    (things which a similarly priced unpowered bike wont offer to the same
    extent) in my situation flexibility is the main benefit.

    But you have less flexibility, not more. On longer rides, once the range
    of the battery is exhausted, you have a substantially heavier and less
    efficient vehicle. So you effectively can't do longer rides, or at least
    you need another bike.

    See my other posts re a spare battery (they are interchangeable after all).
    As it happens I don't use my bike on long enough trips to generally run out
    of juice and plan to avoid this. I have on a few occasions had this happen
    (most recently on my first trip up the hills between Knighton and Presteigne
    near the top the hill). On the very few occasions where the battery has died
    on me, its simply a case of keeping going under my own power in a lower gear
    at a slower speed until I can get to charge it, easy enough really). In the
    above case I failed to plan for the extent of hills in that area.

    Quoted message said:

    Same goes for hillier rides. Instead of a vehicle
    you can lift with one finger,

    You must have a very strong finger then. On the above example I had both my
    panniers full with my weekend supplies/gear in touring mode, even on a racer
    (if it was capable of holding all this) that would be quite a feat!

    Quoted message said:

    you have something which is awkward or impossible to manhandle up a flight
    of steps. So you can't easily take it on a journey involving a rail
    connection, for > example, or take it indoors when visiting a friend's
    flat. And so on.

    You would be incorrect to assume the above isn't physically easy to do with
    a quality electric bike. Technically electric bikes are currently restricted
    from the trains I travel on - I've not heard of anyone with a modern bike
    without lead acid batteries having this enforced but I wouldn't want to
    encourage people to break the rules :-) Maybe those not capable of much
    exertion such as some very old and frail people may have some difficulties
    but they would likely do so with conventional bikes as well.

    Quoted message said:

    As for 'style/image', I really am not going to comment.

    Personally I like the style of my Giant Twist - its much nicer than the new
    successor they're introducing and much nicer than many of the mountain bikes
    in use on the roads. I've had many positive comments from people young and
    old about its looks. There wont be many people who don't like the style of
    the yellow dream previously referred to. There are well styled electric
    bikes and some that aren't, so it does vary - just like conventional bikes.

    Paul

  2. Paul Murphy said:

    "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    everyone). The above website mentions 4500 Euros but I don't know the
    street price of one - its sure to be expensive though.

    So it's roughly the price of my Dolan and my Cannondale put together.
    That's two very expensive, very capable bikes. If I could spend 4,500
    Euros on a single bike, I could trim at least another third off the
    weight of my Dolan.

    As I mentioned I don't know the street price that you could actually expect
    to pay for one - I just plucked that figure off the French page I referred
    to. If you buy one in Italy where they're made, the price may again vary.

    Or you might find it's a one-off concept model that could be built to order
    in theory, but doesn't have a street price. Looking at http://www.powerbikes.com
    ("English version" link from http://www.primapowerbikes.fr/), I strongly
    suspect that's what you would find. And if you wanted Lithium Polymer
    batteries, it would cost still more.

    For 4500 Euros I could buy a motorbike, motorbike training course,
    and a good few years fuel, and get performance and range that would
    leave any electric bike way behind, if an unpowered bike (or a selection
    of them) wouldn't do all the journeys I wanted to.

  3. "Alan Braggins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Paul Murphy said:
    Quoted message said:

    While the gap is reducing, at
    the moment any battery with reasonable range is not "minimal". (But then
    nor is 200W the "insignificant" power that Simon has claimed.)

    Lithium Polymer is significantly lighter than both Ni MH and Li Ion and
    does
    give that range at "minimal" weight (in my view) but then its also about
    twice the price currently.

    What commercially available UK road legal electric assisted bikes offer
    Lithium Polymer batteries as an option? How many of them make economic
    sense compared to a moped or small motorbike?

    The topic was discussed at the recent electric bike rally I attended. As
    this is state of the art technology I'm not aware of any avail in the UK yet
    (although there were 2 such equipped bikes at the rally - one homebuilt with
    the batteries attached by what looked to be insulation tape, the other being
    a Swizzbee - battery details here:
    http://www.swizzbee.com/swizzbee.php4?lang=english&site=newtech&sub=lipoly

    By "make economic sense compared to a moped or small motorbike" I'm unsure
    what you are getting at. Users of power assisted bikes generally buy these
    because they still want to do some pedalling, as well as the exemptions from
    road tax, insurance, ability to use cycle lanes and other benefits that
    cyclists enjoy over motor cyclists. My Twist cost more than a small
    motorbike but buying a motorbike wasn't something I was interested in doing.
    If price is the overriding factor then people would often be better off
    relying on public transport (although some train ticket prices do challenge
    this). I seem to remember the Swizzbee was more than a couple of grand and
    the owner sold his car to buy it.

    It's only a matter of time until this sort of technology becomes mainstream
    at reasonable prices, just as conventional (non-poly) Li Ion has superseded
    Ni MH, Ni Cad and Lead Acid before that.

    Paul

  4. "Alan Braggins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Paul Murphy said:

    "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    > everyone). The above website mentions 4500 Euros but I don't know the
    > street price of one - its sure to be expensive though.

    So it's roughly the price of my Dolan and my Cannondale put together.
    That's two very expensive, very capable bikes. If I could spend 4,500
    Euros on a single bike, I could trim at least another third off the
    weight of my Dolan.

    As I mentioned I don't know the street price that you could actually
    expect
    to pay for one - I just plucked that figure off the French page I referred
    to. If you buy one in Italy where they're made, the price may again vary.

    Or you might find it's a one-off concept model that could be built to
    order
    in theory, but doesn't have a street price. Looking at
    http://www.powerbikes.com
    ("English version" link from http://www.primapowerbikes.fr/), I strongly
    suspect that's what you would find. And if you wanted Lithium Polymer
    batteries, it would cost still more.

    I haven't tried to buy one but feel free to let me know the definite outcome
    of any enquiries you make. For me the price is a limiting factor.

    Quoted message said:


    For 4500 Euros I could buy a motorbike, motorbike training course,
    and a good few years fuel, and get performance and range that would
    leave any electric bike way behind, if an umpowered bike (or a selection
    of them) wouldn't do all the journeys I wanted to.

    Of course that is an option (and I've owned several motorbikes overseas) but
    there are significant disadvanges to motorbikes compared to cycling its a
    completely different kettle of fish.

    Paul

  5. in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

    Murphy (') said:

    "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I want my bike to be able to nip into the post office or to get a pint
    of milk (25 Km round trip, typically 120 metres total climb depending
    on route), time trial (typically 48Km round trip involving 16Km of
    racing on the same bike), social rides with friends (typically 60Km
    and, around here, anything up to 1000 metres total climb), and
    occasional day trips (typically 160Km involving 1000 - 3000 metres
    total climb).

    I can do all that, on the same bike. I do not believe you could find a
    single electric assist bike which could do half of it.

    Uncommon usage and I dare say very different to the OPs intended use.

    Perhaps. But that doesn't alter my opinion that the OP would be better
    off spending his/her money on a good light bike without electric assist,
    pretty much regardless of what use they plan. Whatever you're doing on a
    bike, electric assist condemns you to limited range, with a very
    considerable penalty in terms of extra effort for ever exceeding that
    range.

    Quoted message said:

    Some of those trips could be done as is (depending on the power
    assisted bike chosen) but it would depend how many spare batteries that
    you were willing to take with you or whether there were charging points
    (with chargers if you didn't bring one) and the time availability,

    This is now verging on fantasy. There are no 'charging points' at the
    sides of Britain's roads. Even if there were, charging a battery is far
    from instantaneous. And spare batteries are either ludicrously heavy to
    lug about, or ludicrously expensive, or both.

    If you have a proper bike, you can do all the sorts of rides I outlined
    above - with ease - and you can also do the urban pottering about - with
    ease. If you have an electric assist bike, you're pretty much limited to
    the urban pottering about, and even that is no easier than it would be
    on a good conventional bike.

    Quoted message said:

    along the way for others (assuming you wanted to do all these things
    under power assistance - otherwise any power assisted bike could cope
    with all of them - as long as you could!).

    But why would I want to drag effectively the weight of an extra bike
    along with me all the time, given that it would do me no good? What is
    the imagined benefit?

    Quoted message said:

    It would depend on the
    typical speeds in the time trial as to whether a power assisted bike
    would offer any significant speed advantage due to the legal 15 mph
    restriction beyond which power assistance must not occur.

    Typical speeds in an amateur club time trial are between 18 and 25 miles
    per hour. Professionals go faster.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; It appears that /dev/null is a conforming XSL processor.

  6. "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, Paul
    Murphy ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    It would depend on the
    typical speeds in the time trial as to whether a power assisted bike
    would offer any significant speed advantage due to the legal 15 mph
    restriction beyond which power assistance must not occur.

    Typical speeds in an amateur club time trial are between 18 and 25 miles
    per hour. Professionals go faster.

    And even this middle-aged, overweight woman can manage 15mph and on a
    downhill I have managed 42mph (scared myself a tad at the downhill speed!)

    Cheers, helen s

  7. Simon Brooke said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, Jim Price

    (') said:

    Paul Murphy wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What I could see on the Dolan website, to my mind looked far more
    boring than the yellow dream. Would it get as much street cred from
    casual observers who see you riding by (not that this is important to
    everyone).

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Looks are always going to be a matter of taste, but I would not call
    this boring looking:
    http://www.bikes-dolan.uk.com/media/Cabon-Lo-Pro-1.jpg
    and it hasn't even been built into a bike!

    Quoted message said:

    Uh-huh. Ain't it pretty? This is what it (or a slightly earlier version
    of it) looks like when it /is/ built into a bike:
    http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story?article=41

    That is very far from boring. Not my cup of tea, but then my Gazelle
    probably isn't yours either! :-) But a very interesting frame and
    machine, and if I saw one of those coming past I'd certainly pay
    attention.

    As far as electric bikes go, they're probably a lot more practical than
    things like the Sinclair C5 was, but by and large I'd agree with Simon
    that a good practical road bike offers more general utility. I don't
    ride any of the ultra-lightweight stuff, I ride a heavyweight Dutch
    roadster (complete with proper mudguards!<g>😉. Granted, I go up even
    gentle hills slowly. But I go up them, and it's not hard - nothing
    like as hard as I imagined it would be while waiting for the bike to
    arrive, despite its quite impressive weight. The technique is
    different to the 90rpm "spinning" pedal motions reccomended by athletic
    cyclists, but dropping to 1st gear and rolling gently up at a couple of
    mph above walking pace is no more difficult than walking would be, and
    even though I've only been doing it regularly for the last three weeks,
    I can already feel a difference in the fitness of my legs. A couple of
    months of this and I'll be a *lot* fitter and healthier, and it's fun
    too.

    Ok, on my short commute electric assist probably would take all the
    work out of it - but where'd be the point in that?

    I tend to think that eventually we'll probably see electric mopeds
    making more of an appearance in towns, as they should last a lot longer
    and cost less in maintenance than petrol-powered ones, but I'm less
    convinced of electric bicycles. Many years ago there were
    petrol-assisted bicycles, but as far as I know they died out fairly
    quickly - people who wanted engines generally wanted proper mopeds or
    motorcycles.

  8. Paul Murphy said:

    "Alan Braggins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    What commercially available UK road legal electric assisted bikes offer
    Lithium Polymer batteries as an option? How many of them make economic
    sense compared to a moped or small motorbike?

    The topic was discussed at the recent electric bike rally I attended. As

    Presteigne? That did sound like fun.

    Quoted message said:

    this is state of the art technology I'm not aware of any avail in the UK yet
    (although there were 2 such equipped bikes at the rally - one homebuilt with
    the batteries attached by what looked to be insulation tape,

    I hope he knows about lithium batteries pernickityness about charging
    requirements and fire risk of getting it wrong....

    Quoted message said:

    the other being a Swizzbee - battery details here:
    http://www.swizzbee.com/swizzbee.php4?lang=english&site=newtech&sub=lipoly

    The Swizzbee, unless I'm missing an option somewhere, is not UK road
    legal as an assisted bike - at least they mention "unlimited speed"
    several times on the web site, and the FAQ says it's a moped in Germany
    and you need a moped test in Switzerland.

    Quoted message said:

    By "make economic sense compared to a moped or small motorbike" I'm unsure
    what you are getting at.

    You said yourself there is a law of diminishing returns when spending more
    money to get a better bike. I believe if you need to spend the sort of money
    the Swizzbee costs to get a bike which is a worthwhile improvement in speed
    and range on a non-powered bike, you would probably be better off with an
    ICE moped. You might consider the silence and legal relaxedness of an EAPC
    worth more though.

    Quoted message said:

    If price is the overriding factor then people would often be better off
    relying on public transport (although some train ticket prices do challenge
    this).

    Your local public transport must be better than mine. (And I used to
    live somewhere 16 miles to the nearest station, with buses twice a week.
    Now it's much better than that.)

    Quoted message said:

    It's only a matter of time until this sort of technology becomes mainstream
    at reasonable prices, just as conventional (non-poly) Li Ion has superseded
    Ni MH, Ni Cad and Lead Acid before that.

    It may be just a matter of time, but it isn't necessarily just round
    the corner either. We might even get cheap fuel cells first, refillable
    in minutes at ex-petrol stations.

    Lead acid hasn't been superceded. I saw a Powabyke user just this morning,
    and, like every other Powabyke user I have seen, he seemed quite happy
    sitting there not pedalling and travelling at slow commuter speed.
    And if it works for him, why not? But for anyone happy to do some work
    themselves, not so worthwhile.

    Even at a more expensive level, Kinetic's Heinzman uses NiCd and NiMH, no
    Li-ion option. http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/html/power_pack.shtml

    Bionx have a Li-ion option, but still offer NiMH (and their would-be UK
    distributor is having trouble geting stock).
    The Giant Suede is NiMH - did the Twist have a Li-ion option? (I think
    the Revive did.)

  9. Simon Brooke said:


    This is now verging on fantasy. There are no 'charging points' at the
    sides of Britain's roads. Even if there were, charging a battery is far
    from instantaneous.

    Some of us sometimes cycle to get somewhere, for example a workplace
    with power points, rather than just to be on the road (instantaneously
    at any point).

    Quoted message said:

    If you have a proper bike, you can do all the sorts of rides I outlined
    above - with ease - and you can also do the urban pottering about - with
    ease. If you have an electric assist bike, you're pretty much limited to
    the urban pottering about, and even that is no easier than it would be
    on a good conventional bike.

    No. If you have _only_ an electric assist bike, you are limited like that.
    I have a car which will take my family hundreds of miles a day with piles
    of camping equipment, which my bike won't, but that doesn't make my bike
    useless.

  10. i artikel [email hidden], skrev Paul
    Murphy på [email hidden] den 06-05-24 09.30:

    Quoted message said:

    "Erik Sandblom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    i artikel [email hidden], skrev Paul
    Murphy på [email hidden] den 06-05-23 19.37:

    Quoted message said:

    If you want to make a like for like
    comparison based on price, this misses the point that electric bikes have
    additional functionality which needs to be paid for

    I'm suprised you're still saying this after we have discussed it so much.
    You are conceding that an electric bike is heavier and more expensive, but
    at the same time trying to deny that the same money could be put toward a
    very light and efficient unpowered bike. The extra functionality in the
    light unpowered bike is that it's so light and efficient.

    But it still wont go up steep hills as effortlessly (the motor power more
    than makes up for its added weight with lots to spare)

    You say that. Simon says no. Neither of you claim to have tested both a
    powered and an unpowered bike at the same price.

    Quoted message said:

    or cover a journey
    hauling shopping or a trailer for example as conveniently.

    Ok. If you have exceptionally heavy loads and high elevations, I could see
    it being useful.

    However, that doesn't mean it's the best solution. Some people who have
    trailers say that they have the disadvantage of letting you carry too much
    stuff.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Thus, both and neither bike are "extra" and should be compared at the same
    price.

    That it's okay for the electric bike to get the same performance at a
    higher
    price is simply unfair. You have to compare bikes which cost the same.

    My point is that there are many circumstances where electric bikes *will*
    outperform non-power assisted bikes of similar styling

    You seem to be quite preoccupied about styling, but the only relevant
    measure for an objective discussion is performance against price, which you
    shy away from. You say "electric assist is a luxury paying extra for" but
    don't want to accept that "an exceptionally light bike is a luxury paying
    extra for" even though it's equally true. And will probably help you just as
    much up a hill, and will never slow you down like the extra weight of a
    pedelec will always do, to a certain extent.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Electric windows in cars still make the same
    windows go up and down, they just do it more stylishly than manual
    winders and that luxury comes at a price.

    I don't feel this is relevant to the discussion but I'll reply anyway :-)
    It's not a matter of style, it's simply difficult to keep your eye on the
    road and wind the windows up at the same time, since your head bobs with
    your shoulder.

    Shall I use the example of central locking in cars then? You still get
    advantages which aren't really "performance" related but which people still
    go for in their droves for "other" reasons.

    I don't think central locking is a style issue, it's just more practical.
    Simon's bike does similar things as yours does, just in a different way. It
    has broadly the same practical application of going up hills easily.

    Quoted message said:

    Can we both agree that there are
    things people pay for on cars, bikes, whatever which aren't performance
    related.

    Yes, but power assist is entirely performance-related.

    Quoted message said:

    If you're saying that the power assistance on electric bikes can
    solely be considered a performance issue, I disagree, its also a
    convenience, flexibility

    Again, a light bike buys you broadly the same convenience and flexibility if
    you put the same money toward the same goal. Besides, convenience and
    flexibility are 100% a function of performance.

    Quoted message said:

    and a style/image issue (things which a similarly
    priced unpowered bike wont offer to the same extent)

    Style and image are personal. If a pedelec suits your style and image, fine,
    but it's not relevant to a discussion with someone else.

    Quoted message said:

    in my situation flexibility is the main benefit.

    I agree that a pedelec might be your best choice, but it's a shame you don't
    seem to be into at least trying a light bike costing the same.

    --
    Erik Sandblom
    my site is EriksRailNews.com
    for those who don't believe, no explanation is possible
    for those who do, no explanation is necessary

  11. i artikel [email hidden], skrev Paul
    Murphy på [email hidden] den 06-05-24 13.01:

    Quoted message said:

    a spare battery

    A spare battery?

    What if you're making love to a beautiful woman. Halfway through you go
    slack and tell her, I have to change the battery. Is that sexy? No. Is it
    stylish? No.

    What if you're making love to a beautiful woman. Halfway through she says,
    Oh I messed my make-up. Wait while I fix it and we'll continue. Is that
    sexy? No. Is it stylish? No.

    So, performance and style go together.

    If the battery lasts the whole way through, then it could well be sexy and
    stylish. If not, it is unstylish and unsexy.

    I guess getting gas for a car is unsexy in the same way.

    Erik Sandblom

  12. "Pyromancer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Simon Brooke said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, Jim Price

    (') said:

    Paul Murphy wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > What I could see on the Dolan website, to my mind looked far more
    > boring than the yellow dream. Would it get as much street cred from
    > casual observers who see you riding by (not that this is important to
    > everyone).

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Looks are always going to be a matter of taste, but I would not call
    this boring looking:
    http://www.bikes-dolan.uk.com/media/Cabon-Lo-Pro-1.jpg
    and it hasn't even been built into a bike!

    Quoted message said:

    Uh-huh. Ain't it pretty? This is what it (or a slightly earlier version
    of it) looks like when it /is/ built into a bike:
    http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story?article=41

    That is very far from boring. Not my cup of tea, but then my Gazelle
    probably isn't yours either! :-) But a very interesting frame and
    machine, and if I saw one of those coming past I'd certainly pay
    attention.

    Gazelle produce highly stylish bikes (they do after all look very similar my
    Dutch Roadster styled Giant Twist and are even similar weight).

    Quoted message said:

    As far as electric bikes go, they're probably a lot more practical than
    things like the Sinclair C5 was, but by and large I'd agree with Simon
    that a good practical road bike offers more general utility. I don't
    ride any of the ultra-lightweight stuff, I ride a heavyweight Dutch
    roadster (complete with proper mudguards!<g>😉. Granted, I go up even
    gentle hills slowly. But I go up them, and it's not hard - nothing
    like as hard as I imagined it would be while waiting for the bike to
    arrive, despite its quite impressive weight. The technique is
    different to the 90rpm "spinning" pedal motions reccomended by athletic
    cyclists, but dropping to 1st gear and rolling gently up at a couple of
    mph above walking pace is no more difficult than walking would be, and
    even though I've only been doing it regularly for the last three weeks,
    I can already feel a difference in the fitness of my legs. A couple of
    months of this and I'll be a *lot* fitter and healthier, and it's fun
    too.

    You did realise the Giant Twist is a very similar style and weight to what
    you have didn't you? This means that your explanation of what its like
    riding your unpowered Gazelle up hills is much like what coping with my
    Twist when the battery is flat is like - still perfectly rideable (there you
    go Simon). Just imagine, if you did have a Twist (not that there's anything
    wrong with a Gazelle), you'd have the choice of switching on power assist
    for those really steep hills or in situations where you don't want to get
    sweaty - its even selectable to either on (full power assist ) or Eco
    (reduced assistance for greater battery range and better exercise).

    Quoted message said:


    Ok, on my short commute electric assist probably would take all the
    work out of it - but where'd be the point in that?

    Not if you select 'eco' or turn off power assist when un-needed it wouldn't,
    that's the point - you have full control over the situation and added
    flexibility.

    Quoted message said:

    I tend to think that eventually we'll probably see electric mopeds
    making more of an appearance in towns, as they should last a lot longer
    and cost less in maintenance than petrol-powered ones, but I'm less
    convinced of electric bicycles. Many years ago there were
    petrol-assisted bicycles, but as far as I know they died out fairly
    quickly - people who wanted engines generally wanted proper mopeds or
    motorcycles.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but as I understand it the difference between an
    electric moped and electric bike is than the former has a bit more power to
    go faster but requires tax, insurance, MOTs and a motorcycle helmet to be
    worn whereas the latter doesn't and can use cycle lanes. Do you really think
    people would suffer all of those added expenses and inconveniences for a few
    extra mph of speed (not to mention they're probably much harder to pedal in
    normal circumstances, let alone if the battery dies)?

    Paul

  13. "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

    Murphy (') said:

    "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I want my bike to be able to nip into the post office or to get a pint
    of milk (25 Km round trip, typically 120 metres total climb depending
    on route), time trial (typically 48Km round trip involving 16Km of
    racing on the same bike), social rides with friends (typically 60Km
    and, around here, anything up to 1000 metres total climb), and
    occasional day trips (typically 160Km involving 1000 - 3000 metres
    total climb).

    I can do all that, on the same bike. I do not believe you could find a
    single electric assist bike which could do half of it.

    Uncommon usage and I dare say very different to the OPs intended use.

    Perhaps. But that doesn't alter my opinion that the OP would be better
    off spending his/her money on a good light bike without electric assist,
    pretty much regardless of what use they plan.

    But you've already admitted there are some situations where electric bikes
    have an advantage (albeit in a very non-generous way) "It might help you on
    a
    hilly route if it had infinite battery capacity, or if someone was following
    you in a car with spare batteries. But in practice it wouldn't help much, "
    Well given there are hills shorter that what it takes to exhaust batteries
    on all electric bikes thats an advantage (even if it was like getting blood
    out of a stone)! Why do you therefore "pretty much" rule out the possibility
    such a bike would be unsuitable without even bothering to find the OPs
    circumstances first?

    Quoted message said:

    Whatever you're doing on a bike, electric assist condemns you to limited
    range, with a very considerable penalty in terms of extra effort for ever
    exceeding > that range.

    So the few (very rare) situations where I've kept cycling my bike after the
    battery died without much extra effort to get me home/where I was going dont
    exist then? When you've tried it on a good quality bike such as the twist,
    then you'd see what you've written is wrong.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Some of those trips could be done as is (depending on the power
    assisted bike chosen) but it would depend how many spare batteries that
    you were willing to take with you or whether there were charging points
    (with chargers if you didn't bring one) and the time availability,

    This is now verging on fantasy. There are no 'charging points' at the
    sides of Britain's roads. Even if there were, charging a battery is far
    from instantaneous. And spare batteries are either ludicrously heavy to
    lug about, or ludicrously expensive, or both.

    Ever heard of a pub? If you take your charger along with you (and yes they
    are light weight... although probably not your idea of light), pub staff
    would usually permit you to plug in for a while. I'm sorry that you find
    under 4 kg for a spare Twist battery ludicrously heavy but I think you'll
    find most people are perfectly capable of "hauling" that weight on their
    bikes - after pumping their tyres up to maximum pressure first ;-)

    Quoted message said:


    If you have a proper bike, you can do all the sorts of rides I outlined
    above - with ease - and you can also do the urban pottering about - with
    ease. If you have an electric assist bike, you're pretty much limited to
    the urban pottering about, and even that is no easier than it would be
    on a good conventional bike.

    Incorrect, 20 miles range for my bike is more than urban pottering about
    (although you may consider it so) and with the newer high capacity battery
    now avail for the Twist that goes to around 30. I guess all those times that
    I've cycled up steep hills past cyclists pushing their conventional bikes
    must have been figments of my imagination (3 times now). Have you thought
    that some people dont want to do 160 km trips on their bikes like you do?
    Dont you think the OPs needs should come into this?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    along the way for others (assuming you wanted to do all these things
    under power assistance - otherwise any power assisted bike could cope
    with all of them - as long as you could!).

    But why would I want to drag effectively the weight of an extra bike
    along with me all the time, given that it would do me no good? What is
    the imagined benefit?

    You said the bike couldn't do these things at one stage, I'm saying they
    can, just with more effort from you in those few cases where the battery
    runs out (if you dont want to carry spare batteries or stop for recharge
    top-ups during your trip). If you read Pyromancers post, he cycles a Gazelle
    which is very similar to an unpowered twist in many ways and he doesn't seem
    to be having any problems coping - why do you think you, or others wouldn't
    be able to cope?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It would depend on the
    typical speeds in the time trial as to whether a power assisted bike
    would offer any significant speed advantage due to the legal 15 mph
    restriction beyond which power assistance must not occur.

    Typical speeds in an amateur club time trial are between 18 and 25 miles
    per hour. Professionals go faster.

    They're not recommended for time trialling then - there you go, you've found
    something we both agree on!

    Paul

  14. i artikel [email hidden], skrev Paul
    Murphy på [email hidden] den 06-05-24 23.06:

    Quoted message said:

    You did realise the Giant Twist is a very similar style and weight to what
    you have didn't you?

    Is the price similar too?

    --
    Erik Sandblom
    my site is EriksRailNews.com
    for those who don't believe, no explanation is possible
    for those who do, no explanation is necessary

  15. "Erik Sandblom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    i artikel [email hidden], skrev Paul
    Murphy på [email hidden] den 06-05-24 13.01:

    Quoted message said:

    a spare battery

    A spare battery?

    What if you're making love to a beautiful woman. Halfway through you go
    slack and tell her, I have to change the battery. Is that sexy? No. Is it
    stylish? No.

    Hmmm let me imagine
    that..........................................................................,
    wait a minute, I dont need any battery powered devices for love making!

    Quoted message said:

    What if you're making love to a beautiful woman. Halfway through she says,
    Oh I messed my make-up. Wait while I fix it and we'll continue. Is that
    sexy? No. Is it stylish? No.

    Wouldn't you tell her she looked beautiful anyway?

    Quoted message said:

    So, performance and style go together.

    Possibly in some areas but I wouldn't say it was universal. Did you know
    that the Blackbird Supersonic experimental aircraft leaked fuel from its
    wings whilst on the ground as they were designed to warm up and seal closed
    only when flying at high speed - not very stylish yet no questions about its
    performance.

    Quoted message said:

    If the battery lasts the whole way through, then it could well be sexy and
    stylish. If not, it is unstylish and unsexy.

    But the point is you can predict how long the battery will last (and even
    get indications of its current state) and plan accordingly for a just a
    quickie or long periods of reciprocating motion - on the pedals

    Quoted message said:


    I guess getting gas for a car is unsexy in the same way.

    Exactly my thought.

    Paul

  16. i artikel [email hidden], skrev Paul
    Murphy på [email hidden] den 06-05-24 23.18:

    Quoted message said:

    "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    This is now verging on fantasy. There are no 'charging points' at the
    sides of Britain's roads. Even if there were, charging a battery is far
    from instantaneous. And spare batteries are either ludicrously heavy to
    lug about, or ludicrously expensive, or both.

    Ever heard of a pub? If you take your charger along with you (and yes they
    are light weight... although probably not your idea of light), pub staff
    would usually permit you to plug in for a while.

    To me that comes across as being decidedly unstylish, even more unstylish
    than bringing an extra battery to change while no-one is looking.

    --
    Erik Sandblom
    my site is EriksRailNews.com
    for those who don't believe, no explanation is possible
    for those who do, no explanation is necessary

  17. i artikel [email hidden], skrev Paul
    Murphy på [email hidden] den 06-05-24 23.37:

    Quoted message said:

    "Erik Sandblom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    i artikel [email hidden], skrev Paul
    Murphy på [email hidden] den 06-05-24 13.01:

    Quoted message said:

    a spare battery

    A spare battery?

    What if you're making love to a beautiful woman. Halfway through you go
    slack and tell her, I have to change the battery. Is that sexy? No. Is it
    stylish? No.

    Hmmm let me imagine
    that..........................................................................
    ,
    wait a minute, I dont need any battery powered devices for love making!

    The point is, going slack is unsexy.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What if you're making love to a beautiful woman. Halfway through she says,
    Oh I messed my make-up. Wait while I fix it and we'll continue. Is that
    sexy? No. Is it stylish? No.

    Wouldn't you tell her she looked beautiful anyway?

    No, I would look for someone with more self-confidence.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    So, performance and style go together.

    Possibly in some areas

    Yes, such as bikes.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If the battery lasts the whole way through, then it could well be sexy and
    stylish. If not, it is unstylish and unsexy.

    But the point is you can predict how long the battery will last (and even
    get indications of its current state) and plan accordingly for a just a
    quickie or long periods of reciprocating motion - on the pedals

    "Plan accordingly". Doesn't sound attractive to me.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I guess getting gas for a car is unsexy in the same way.

    Exactly my thought.

    Touché!

    --
    Erik Sandblom
    my site is EriksRailNews.com
    for those who don't believe, no explanation is possible
    for those who do, no explanation is necessary

  18. "Erik Sandblom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    i artikel [email hidden], skrev Paul
    Murphy på [email hidden] den 06-05-24 23.06:

    Quoted message said:

    You did realise the Giant Twist is a very similar style and weight to
    what
    you have didn't you?

    Is the price similar too?

    Would you expect it to be a similar price given it would use extra
    components to ofer extra functionality over a bike of similar weight, style
    and otherwise equipment specification?

    Paul

  19. "Erik Sandblom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    i artikel [email hidden], skrev Paul
    Murphy på [email hidden] den 06-05-24 23.37:

    Quoted message said:

    "Erik Sandblom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    i artikel [email hidden], skrev Paul
    Murphy på [email hidden] den 06-05-24 13.01:

    > a spare battery

    A spare battery?

    What if you're making love to a beautiful woman. Halfway through you go
    slack and tell her, I have to change the battery. Is that sexy? No. Is
    it
    stylish? No.

    Hmmm let me imagine
    that..........................................................................
    ,
    wait a minute, I dont need any battery powered devices for love making!

    The point is, going slack is unsexy.

    But as you see in my comments below, almost always avoidable if you plan in
    advance.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What if you're making love to a beautiful woman. Halfway through she
    says,
    Oh I messed my make-up. Wait while I fix it and we'll continue. Is that
    sexy? No. Is it stylish? No.

    Wouldn't you tell her she looked beautiful anyway?

    No, I would look for someone with more self-confidence.

    Did you used to be a drill instructor in the military or something. I'm sure
    that would go down really well - don't bother coming back from the mirror
    luv, I'm outta here.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    So, performance and style go together.

    Possibly in some areas

    Yes, such as bikes.

    Sometimes not necessarily.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If the battery lasts the whole way through, then it could well be sexy
    and
    stylish. If not, it is unstylish and unsexy.

    But the point is you can predict how long the battery will last (and even
    get indications of its current state) and plan accordingly for a just a
    quickie or long periods of reciprocating motion - on the pedals

    "Plan accordingly". Doesn't sound attractive to me.

    I presume you've used a paper map or internet map/routing service before? It
    takes a minute to work out if you're going to exceed your maximum range.

    Paul

  20. "Erik Sandblom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    i artikel [email hidden], skrev Paul
    Murphy på [email hidden] den 06-05-24 23.18:

    Quoted message said:

    "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    This is now verging on fantasy. There are no 'charging points' at the
    sides of Britain's roads. Even if there were, charging a battery is far
    from instantaneous. And spare batteries are either ludicrously heavy to
    lug about, or ludicrously expensive, or both.

    Ever heard of a pub? If you take your charger along with you (and yes
    they
    are light weight... although probably not your idea of light), pub staff
    would usually permit you to plug in for a while.

    To me that comes across as being decidedly unstylish, even more unstylish
    than bringing an extra battery to change while no-one is looking.

    It depends how classy the pub is that you stop at. As for a battery change,
    you change it while people are looking and feel proud your using less of the
    earths valuable resources than almost any other means to get around. Most
    people wouldn't have a clue what you're doing anyway.

    Paul

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.