electric bikes

Paul Murphy said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That would depend if the version sold here has a maximum 200 Watt nominal
power output and shuts its power assist off above 15 mph.

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't say I was going at least 15 mph everywhere no - there were bits
where I was faster (on the level/down hill) and slower (going up the hill
towards the end after an hour of cycling). Remember you only have about 200
Watts to play with subject to how much effort you put on the pedals (at
least on my type of bike).

200W is more than a third of the output of a Tour de France rider, so on
an electric bike with an efficient design, might well double the climbing
ability of a more typical cyclist. At least until the battery runs out.

http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=11857&sidebar=725&category=tdf2005_index
http://www.bicycling.com/tourdefrance/experts/columns/0,5976,s1-12288-527,00.html

Simon Brooke said:

Interesting. So despite pedalling furiously, none of the electric assist
bikes - not even the fastest - could achieve the speed of an average
amateur club cyclist on a conventional bike.

Without knowing whether any of the riders were average amateur club cyclists,
that's completely meaningless. Most commuting cyclists do less than 15mph.

Simon Brooke said:

Interesting. So despite pedalling furiously, none of the electric
assist bikes - not even the fastest - could achieve the speed of an
average amateur club cyclist on a conventional bike.

I bet Alan Holmes could, even with the electric motor switched off and
with fully loaded panniers ;-)

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

In article said:

Simon Brooke said:

Interesting. So despite pedalling furiously, none of the electric assist
bikes - not even the fastest - could achieve the speed of an average
amateur club cyclist on a conventional bike.

Without knowing whether any of the riders were average amateur club cyclists,
that's completely meaningless. Most commuting cyclists do less than 15mph.

P.S. There are some photos here: http://egopt.co.uk/eco2006/

I'm reminded of your contention that since you personally would be caused
no inconvenience by a ban on urban 4x4s, there could be no possible reason
not to ban everyone else using them, or wafflycat's argument that since she
wore a helmet without discomfort, there was no reason to oppose a helmet law.

I've joined this thread very late on but here goes. I bought a Cyclone
electric bike this time last year for a cost of £350. Since then I
have covered 7,500 miles on it on the original battery and a spare
(both still work).

I live near Cambridge so the terrain is flat. My commute is just over
20 miles a day and I can happily pedal between 18-20mph without
breaking into a soaking sweat. As we don't have shower facilities at
work, this was my main reason for going electric. The bike can assist
me more on the way into work so I get there relatively fresh and then I
can pedal harder on the way home to make up for it.

So as you can see, there are instances when an electric bike can be
useful !

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Alan Braggins
([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2006/05/13/mfcycle13.xml&sSheet=/motoring/2006/05/13/ixmot.html

Quoted message said:

has some numbers. The Swizzbee and an eZee Torq belonging to the editor
of A to B magazine both did 26 laps of 3/4 miles in 60 minutes, so
over 19 miles per hour average.

Dave Henshaw, the A to B editor, was quoted as saying his success was
due to "pedalling furiously when necessary and anticipating when you
could use maximum power".

It doesn't say anywhere that the eZee torque "belonged" to David - as a
magazine editor he will have contacts with spare bikes etc. His family
definitely does have a Giant Twist/Lafree Comfort however and its regularly
commented on in the magazine.

Quoted message said:

Interesting. So despite pedalling furiously, none of the electric assist
bikes - not even the fastest - could achieve the speed of an average
amateur club cyclist on a conventional bike.

By conventional bike if you mean the sort that's ideally suitable for towing
a trailer or having panniers slung on the back and that usually comes with
mudguards, lights dynamos and other extremely heavy equipment, even then
you're still incorrect. The numbers mentioned above aren't that accurate and
the figure I heard was about 23 miles per hour average (from the announcer
at the prize giving) but either way whether it was 19 or 23 miles par hour,
I cant see how that falls out of the "Typical speeds in an amateur club time
trial are between 18 and 25 miles per hour. Professionals go faster" that
you wrote earlier in this thread. Are you now saying that this doesn't apply
anymore and that these sorts of riders actually go faster? Where are the
goal posts moved to now?

Quoted message said:

Can't say I'm surprised. I bet they worked harder, too!

Cant say I covered the same circuit 20 times on a conventional bike to
compare (nor that I'd really be interested in doing so, other than perhaps
due to curiosity). I dare say you haven't covered the circuit on either mode
of transport..... although there was a person on a lead acid battery
equipped Powabyke that I lapped about 4 times, were you there? I think the
speed range I've pulled up from your earlier post, combined with the fact
these machines are usually more general purpose in design and intent than
the sorts of machines designed purely for speed that many time triallists
would show up on, I believe shows that the electrics did very well.

Paul

"Alan Braggins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul Murphy said:

Quoted message said:

>
> That would depend if the version sold here has a maximum 200 Watt
> nominal
> power output and shuts its power assist off above 15 mph.

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't say I was going at least 15 mph everywhere no - there were bits
where I was faster (on the level/down hill) and slower (going up the hill
towards the end after an hour of cycling). Remember you only have about
200
Watts to play with subject to how much effort you put on the pedals (at
least on my type of bike).

200W is more than a third of the output of a Tour de France rider, so on
an electric bike with an efficient design, might well double the climbing
ability of a more typical cyclist. At least until the battery runs out.

http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=11857&sidebar=725&category=tdf2005_index
http://www.bicycling.com/tourdefrance/experts/columns/0,5976,s1-12288-527,00.html

There is a torque sensor on my bike so whether the full 200 Watts was being
provided I don't know, especially given that I was getting a bit tired
towards the end.

Paul

Alan Braggins said:

Paul Murphy said:

Quoted message said:

>
> That would depend if the version sold here has a maximum 200 Watt
> nominal power output and shuts its power assist off above 15 mph.

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't say I was going at least 15 mph everywhere no - there
were bits where I was faster (on the level/down hill) and slower
(going up the hill towards the end after an hour of cycling).
Remember you only have about 200 Watts to play with subject to how
much effort you put on the pedals (at least on my type of bike).

200W is more than a third of the output of a Tour de France rider, so
on an electric bike with an efficient design, might well double the
climbing ability of a more typical cyclist. At least until the
battery runs out.

http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=11857&sidebar=725&category=tdf2005_index
http://www.bicycling.com/tourdefrance/experts/columns/0,5976,s1-12288-527,00.html

It's interesting that in this whole debate no one's brought up the actual
capacity and weight of the batteries in these bikes. My laptop's got a 66WHr
battery that weighs 4-500g. So it would power one of these bikes flat out
for 20 minutes. Assuming I'm putting in a reasonably relaxed 100W, I
guesstimate that this would give me a range of about 20 miles at around 15
mph on the terrain I get round here.

It sounds like it's a horse that might fit some people's courses. For
myself, I like the simplicity of just riding along.
--
Ambrose

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Murphy (') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Alan Braggins
([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2006/05/13/mfcycle13.xml&sSheet=/motoring/2006/05/13/ixmot.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

has some numbers. The Swizzbee and an eZee Torq belonging to the
editor of A to B magazine both did 26 laps of 3/4 miles in 60
minutes, so over 19 miles per hour average.

Dave Henshaw, the A to B editor, was quoted as saying his success was
due to "pedalling furiously when necessary and anticipating when you
could use maximum power".

Quoted message said:

Interesting. So despite pedalling furiously, none of the electric
assist bikes - not even the fastest - could achieve the speed of an
average amateur club cyclist on a conventional bike.

By conventional bike if you mean the sort that's ideally suitable for
towing a trailer or having panniers slung on the back and that usually
comes with mudguards, lights dynamos and other extremely heavy
equipment, even then you're still incorrect. The numbers mentioned
above aren't that accurate and the figure I heard was about 23 miles
per hour average (from the announcer at the prize giving) but either
way whether it was 19 or 23 miles par hour, I cant see how that falls
out of the "Typical speeds in an amateur club time trial are between 18
and 25 miles per hour. Professionals go faster" that you wrote earlier
in this thread. Are you now saying that this doesn't apply anymore and
that these sorts of riders actually go faster? Where are the goal posts
moved to now?

26 * 0.75 = 19.5 miles; in 60 minutes means 19.5 miles per hour. If he
had averaged 23 miles per hour he would have completed 31 laps in 60
minutes or 26 laps in 50 minutes. All your figures.

In a range between 18 and 25, where would you /expect/ the average to
fall? At a guess?

No movement of the goalposts.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; An enamorata is for life, not just for weekends.

"Ambrose Nankivell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

It's interesting that in this whole debate no one's brought up the actual
capacity and weight of the batteries in these bikes. My laptop's got a
66WHr battery that weighs 4-500g. So it would power one of these bikes
flat out for 20 minutes. Assuming I'm putting in a reasonably relaxed
100W, I guesstimate that this would give me a range of about 20 miles at
around 15 mph on the terrain I get round here.

What is it that you would like brought up about them. The average electric
bike battery will be far bigger and hold much more capacity that a laptop
battery. My bike battery weights about 8 lbs (according to our ancient
bathroom scales) thats about 3.7 kg or so. It's rated at 24 Volts and 6.5
AHr which equates to 156 Watt Hours. There are newer Ni MH high capacity
versions avail with the same weight which offer 9 AHr - ie 216 Watt Hrs but
Li Ion (let alone Lithium Ion Polymer which is lighter again) isn't avail
yet for Twist. I get about 18 ~ 20 Miles on flat ground but often much less
if its very hilly and I have loaded panniers etc.Although the motor will
have a nominal output of 200 Watts of power, it will take in more than this
from the supply. The power, control and regulation circuitry wont be 100 %
efficient and some energy will be lost as heat (something you haven't
considered in your above calculations).

Quoted message said:

It sounds like it's a horse that might fit some people's courses. For
myself, I like the simplicity of just riding along.

I do understand where you're coming from. Many years ago I had the
opportunity to learn to fly powered aircraft and get my PPL cheaply, instead
I opted for the gliding route because its a more seat of the pants and pure
form of flying. I can certainly understand some some people choosing the
powered aircraft route however.Its interesting that many pilots of large
commercial aircraft, fly gliders in their pastimes as a sporting interest.

Paul

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Murphy (') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Alan Braggins
([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2006/05/13/mfcycle13.xml&sSheet=/motoring/2006/05/13/ixmot.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> has some numbers. The Swizzbee and an eZee Torq belonging to the
> editor of A to B magazine both did 26 laps of 3/4 miles in 60
> minutes, so over 19 miles per hour average.
>
> Dave Henshaw, the A to B editor, was quoted as saying his success was
> due to "pedalling furiously when necessary and anticipating when you
> could use maximum power".

Quoted message said:

Interesting. So despite pedalling furiously, none of the electric
assist bikes - not even the fastest - could achieve the speed of an
average amateur club cyclist on a conventional bike.

By conventional bike if you mean the sort that's ideally suitable for
towing a trailer or having panniers slung on the back and that usually
comes with mudguards, lights dynamos and other extremely heavy
equipment, even then you're still incorrect. The numbers mentioned
above aren't that accurate and the figure I heard was about 23 miles
per hour average (from the announcer at the prize giving) but either
way whether it was 19 or 23 miles par hour, I cant see how that falls
out of the "Typical speeds in an amateur club time trial are between 18
and 25 miles per hour. Professionals go faster" that you wrote earlier
in this thread. Are you now saying that this doesn't apply anymore and
that these sorts of riders actually go faster? Where are the goal posts
moved to now?

26 * 0.75 = 19.5 miles; in 60 minutes means 19.5 miles per hour. If he
had averaged 23 miles per hour he would have completed 31 laps in 60
minutes or 26 laps in 50 minutes. All your figures.

No they're not - the circuit was more than 0.75 miles (and closer to a mile)
long, just as with the average speed, the newspaper printed incorrect info
here too..

Quoted message said:

In a range between 18 and 25, where would you /expect/ the average to
fall? At a guess?

Assuming the distribution follows a bell curve (which is by no means the
actual case as people tend to "pack"😉 in the middle - this would eqate to
(18 + 25) x 0.5 = 21.5 mph. Its fair enough that you may not have seen my
post of 11.15 today where I mentioned the winners average speed was about 23
mph (it was actually 23 point something). I trust that you are now willing
to concede the winner (and probably quite a few others as the leaders were
closely spaced) did indeed travel faster than your statistically average
time triallist cyclist?

Quoted message said:

No movement of the goalposts.

I'll make sure of that no matter how hard anyone tries.

Paul

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You have to be /joking/. I, fifty and with chronic circulation problems,
could beat any legal electric bike on any course, without difficulty.
People in my club can do time trials at 10Km/h faster than me. Time
trialling, my speed rarely drops down below 25Km/h, so there is almost
no time that the motor could legally assist - not even up the hills. All
the time it isn't assisting, it's just extra weight and extra drag.
You'd have to be an exceptionally poor cyclist to do as badly on a good
quality normal bike as you would on a 'yellow dream'.

--

I am impressed with your speed. When I cycle to work it takes me a good hour
to do the 11.5 miles (5-10 mins less coming back). I am not sure whether
this is a problem with my fitness, or whether it is because I ride a
mountain bike which is probably not designed for extended road riding.

I would be interested in testing out an electric bike, and also a road bike
of comparable cost just to see which one is faster and easier. I think my
commute would be an ideal test due to the undulations. If I had 1000 pounds
to spend on a new bike it is not at all obvious from reading the comments
here which option would be the quickest over the distance.

Adam

"Adam Lea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I would be interested in testing out an electric bike, and also a road
bike of comparable cost just to see which one is faster and easier.

If you contact your favourite local bike shop they may be able to assist in
terms of providing a test ride on each. I remember reading something about a
council initiative to loan or rent electric bikes so if you have trouble
finding an lbs with electric bikes, maybe your council can help.

Quoted message said:

I think my commute would be an ideal test due to the undulations.

Certainly "undulations" will be smoothened out by a good electric bike but
the best advice I can give you is to go for some test rides to see for
yourself.

Quoted message said:

If I had 1000 pounds to spend on a new bike it is not at all obvious from
reading the comments here which option would be the quickest over the
distance.

The answer is likely it would depend on your riding style and given theres
not just one £1000 electric bike or conventional bike to choose from, the
actual bike you would choose.

AtoB Magazine usually has lots of adverts in the back outlining dealers and
their website http://www.atob.org.uk/ will help with electric bike info, the
rest is up to you to try out for yourself.

Paul

Adam Lea said:

I am impressed with your speed. When I cycle to work it takes me a good hour
to do the 11.5 miles (5-10 mins less coming back). I am not sure whether
this is a problem with my fitness, or whether it is because I ride a
mountain bike which is probably not designed for extended road riding.

Mountain bikes are not primarily designed for *fast* road riding but
can be adapted to be comfortable and reasonably quick road vehicles. By
the sound of it you have a lumpy commute (hence the faster time coming
back.)

Two quick questions: WHat tyres are you using? If knobbly ones, swap
them for some high pressure slicks (eg. specialised fat boy, Nokian
AWS, Schwalbe CityJet) and pump them up hard, at least 80psi. That
*will* take 5-10 mins off your commute. Other things that may help are
better technique (learning to spin the pedals), and putting the load on
the bike rather than on you.

MTB tend to be a bit heavier than dedicated road bikes, so if it is a
hilly ride, trying to lose weight of the bike will also help. FWIW I
used to do a 16 mile commute on definitely non-flat terrain in about an
hour.

Quoted message said:

I would be interested in testing out an electric bike, and also a road bike
of comparable cost just to see which one is faster and easier. I think my
commute would be an ideal test due to the undulations. If I had 1000 pounds
to spend on a new bike it is not at all obvious from reading the comments
here which option would be the quickest over the distance.

Overall for a person of average fitness[*] I'd go with the lightweight
road bike - for those of a less fit disposition there is a strong case
for some sort of electric assist in certain cases.

...d

[*] By fitness I mean someone who when CV fit could easily do that
distance and more. I'd expect EA bikes to be a good choice for those
without even the potential to be able to be fit enough for the whole
journey.

In article said:

It's interesting that in this whole debate no one's brought up the actual
capacity and weight of the batteries in these bikes. My laptop's got a 66WHr
battery that weighs 4-500g. So it would power one of these bikes flat out
for 20 minutes.

Only if it still has the same capacity when you draw much more current
than the laptop does, which is unlikely. Generally the higher the current,
the more the internal resistance of the battery wastes in heat. If you
look back at the thread there are some numbers for batteries, or at least
URLs of suppliers pages about batteries.

in message <[email hidden]>, Adam Lea

(') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You have to be /joking/. I, fifty and with chronic circulation
problems, could beat any legal electric bike on any course, without
difficulty. People in my club can do time trials at 10Km/h faster than
me. Time trialling, my speed rarely drops down below 25Km/h, so there
is almost no time that the motor could legally assist - not even up
the hills. All the time it isn't assisting, it's just extra weight and
extra drag. You'd have to be an exceptionally poor cyclist to do as
badly on a good quality normal bike as you would on a 'yellow dream'.

I am impressed with your speed. When I cycle to work it takes me a good
hour to do the 11.5 miles (5-10 mins less coming back). I am not sure
whether this is a problem with my fitness, or whether it is because I
ride a mountain bike which is probably not designed for extended road
riding.

I would be interested in testing out an electric bike, and also a road
bike of comparable cost just to see which one is faster and easier. I
think my commute would be an ideal test due to the undulations. If I
had 1000 pounds to spend on a new bike it is not at all obvious from
reading the comments here which option would be the quickest over the
distance.

Try it. I'm sure you'll find a bike shop which would allow you to test
ride both under similar conditions. If you do, please post your
conclusions; I'm sure they would be very interesting.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; So, before proceeding with definitive screwing, choose the
;; position most congenital.
-- instructions for fitting bicycle handlebars

David Martin said:

Adam Lea said:

I am impressed with your speed. When I cycle to work it takes me a good hour
to do the 11.5 miles (5-10 mins less coming back). I am not sure whether
this is a problem with my fitness, or whether it is because I ride a
mountain bike which is probably not designed for extended road riding.

Mountain bikes are not primarily designed for *fast* road riding but
can be adapted to be comfortable and reasonably quick road vehicles.

FSVO "reasonably quick". On a regular commute of over 10 miles,
I wouldn't use a mountainbike by choice, no matter how well-adapted
to the tarmac.

A tourer will make the ride feel much shorter, and be measurably
quicker, with no downside. A fast roadie bike will do more (provided
the route doesn't take you offroad), and will encourage the body to
put in more effort too, but loses you carrying capability and will
be foul in the wet.

--
not me guv

"David Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Adam Lea wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would be interested in testing out an electric bike, and also a road
bike
of comparable cost just to see which one is faster and easier. I think my
commute would be an ideal test due to the undulations. If I had 1000
pounds
to spend on a new bike it is not at all obvious from reading the comments
here which option would be the quickest over the distance.

Overall for a person of average fitness[*] I'd go with the lightweight
road bike - for those of a less fit disposition there is a strong case
for some sort of electric assist in certain cases.

Adam's question related to which would be the quickest (and easiest) bike
for an 11.5 mile each way commute. The fitmess myth is one I've heard
propogated by more than one bike shop, presumably in order to try and sell
the conventional bikes they stocked. After all who wants to buy an electric
bike if they've been told they're best for people of below average fitness.
Provided the cyclist has sufficient fitness to actually ride a cycle, which
Adam clearly has, then the main advantage gained by increased fitness is the
potential for increased speed in both cases. Its simply incorrect to say
people of average fitness will go faster on a conventional £1000 bike than
an electric bike costing the same amount as it depends to much on factors
such as how much the cyclist wants to push themselves or the level of
comfort expected as well as all the requirements the cyclist expects from
the bike.

In addition to my earlier information on resources and encouraging Adam to
try out a multitude of both types to see which suits his needs best, I found
this recent Telegraph page
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2006/05/20/mnelec20.xml
which outlines a number of companies offering electric bike rental, should
Adam want to go down that path.

Quoted message said:

..d

[*] By fitness I mean someone who when CV fit could easily do that
distance and more. I'd expect EA bikes to be a good choice for those
without even the potential to be able to be fit enough for the whole
journey.

Thats far from the only circumstances where EA bikes would be a good choice.
You may beleive the fitness myth but I believe its wrong to propogate it.
Adam should try out the options and see for himself.

Paul

Paul Murphy said:

"David Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Adam Lea wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would be interested in testing out an electric bike, and also a road
bike
of comparable cost just to see which one is faster and easier. I think my
commute would be an ideal test due to the undulations. If I had 1000
pounds
to spend on a new bike it is not at all obvious from reading the comments
here which option would be the quickest over the distance.

Overall for a person of average fitness[*] I'd go with the lightweight
road bike - for those of a less fit disposition there is a strong case
for some sort of electric assist in certain cases.

Adam's question related to which would be the quickest (and easiest) bike
for an 11.5 mile each way commute. The fitmess myth is one I've heard
propogated by more than one bike shop, presumably in order to try and sell
the conventional bikes they stocked.

So if his average speed goes over the limit of the electric bike? How
often would he be in need of the electric assist, and how much
time/money would it save him overall? I have done a commute of more
than ten miles (on my current roadified MTB ;-) and it was no great
hardship after the first few weeks. Then again I am not the average man
and this route was not averagely flat.

Quoted message said:

In addition to my earlier information on resources and encouraging Adam to
try out a multitude of both types to see which suits his needs best, I found
this recent Telegraph page
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2006/05/20/mnelec20.xml
which outlines a number of companies offering electric bike rental, should
Adam want to go down that path.

The latest Cycle also has a review of electric assist.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

..d

[*] By fitness I mean someone who when CV fit could easily do that
distance and more. I'd expect EA bikes to be a good choice for those
without even the potential to be able to be fit enough for the whole
journey.

Thats far from the only circumstances where EA bikes would be a good choice.
You may beleive the fitness myth but I believe its wrong to propogate it.
Adam should try out the options and see for himself.

What myth? Someone of average fitness[1] on the flat will happily
cruise at the limit of an electric bikes capability. I'd recommend he
makes the cheap and easy changes first (upgrades the tyres/position on
the existing bike, improves technique) and then after a month or so
decide whether some form of assist may be required.

...d

[1] in terms of potential, not current CV ability. Give it a few weeks
of regular cycling and then see..

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Murphy (') said:

Its simply incorrect to say
people of average fitness will go faster on a conventional £1000 bike
than an electric bike costing the same amount as it depends to much on
factors such as how much the cyclist wants to push themselves or the
level of comfort expected as well as all the requirements the cyclist
expects from the bike.

You believe it's incorrect. This thread would not exist if it weren't for
the fact that you believe it's incorrect. I've no wish to cast doubt on
the sincerity of that belief. But the fact that it is your opinion does
not make it a fact.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; my other religion is Emacs