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Electric bikes on steep hills.

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UK and Europe
Published
24 September 2007
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1 October 2007
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Bob
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  1. A relative of mine lives one one side of the Malvern Hills, and works
    on the other. About 7 or 8 miles round trip.

    He cycles occasionaly, but finds it a bit much to do every day because
    of the steep climb in both directions. I suggested an electric bike,
    but I'm not sure which one(s) to recommend. I've got a feeling he
    needs a bike with a crank motor rather than a hub motor due to the
    steepness of the hills.

    If anyone has any experience of using an electric bike in a hilly
    area, please let me know what model it was and how effective it was
    (and how steep the hills were).

    Thanks,

    Bob.

  2. For hills it's normally best to use a "crank drive" motor rather than the
    hub motor variety. Reason is that the motor that drives the pedal cranks
    can also use the advantage of whatever gearing system the bike is fitted
    with. Meaning that the electric motor can spin freely, when it's most
    efficient, even when the bike is going slowly.
    Sadly not much choice now as there is only one of this type left on the
    "new" market and that's the Gazelle Easy Glider at about 1400 quid !!
    Expensive but nice.
    The best cheaper alt. is to look for a s/h Giant Lafree because that also
    used the same crank motor that's in the Gazelle.
    A to B magazine carries a lot of very useful info about all sorts of E
    Bikes.
    Our Giant Lafree (the cheapest one, 3 speed and no suspension) copes with
    most hills with only modest pedaling. Say up to 1 in 8 and harder work will
    get you up a 1 in 6.

  3. Gazelle Easy Glider info

    http://www.gazelle.nl/nl/imagebank/pdf/fietsen/Easy_Glider.pdf

  4. Steve Watkin said:

    Gazelle Easy Glider info

    http://www.gazelle.nl/nl/imagebank/pdf/fietsen/Easy_Glider.pdf

    Thanks for the info Steve. The bike looks very nice. I wonder if
    there's a bike shop mad enough to lend him one for a few days to see
    if its up to the daily climb.

  5. "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    If anyone has any experience of using an electric bike in a hilly
    area, please let me know what model it was and how effective it was
    (and how steep the hills were).

    As suggested already a system where the motor power goes through the gears
    is your friends best bet. I have a 2006 Giant Twist (formerly known as the
    LaFree) Comfort with 5 speed gears and have yet to encounter a hill which it
    cant get up. I don't know how to find gradients on line but if you know the
    hill up to Downley in High Wycombe (it's called The Pastures), my bike gets
    up that and other hills such as Marlow Hill, Hedsor Hill and Whitepit Lane
    with no problem and that's with a rider over 100 kg and a full pannier bag
    up The Pastures and Marlow Hill. It was quite slow but still much faster
    than getting off and pushing (which is what many other cyclists I see tend
    to do)!

    Be aware that the current Giant Twist models have sacrificed the motor drive
    through the gears system in favour of a cheaper less flexible hub motor
    design and has not received the same great reviews as the older models.
    Aside from the mentioned Gazelle Easy Glider, there are other new bikes such
    as the Swiss Flyer range and Swizzbee which use motor power through the
    gears but these cost even more, they are top quality bikes though.

    Paul

  6. Paul Murphy said:

    "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    If anyone has any experience of using an electric bike in a hilly
    area, please let me know what model it was and how effective it was
    (and how steep the hills were).

    As suggested already a system where the motor power goes through the gears
    is your friends best bet. I have a 2006 Giant Twist (formerly known as the
    LaFree) Comfort with 5 speed gears and have yet to encounter a hill which it
    cant get up. I don't know how to find gradients on line but if you know the
    hill up to Downley in High Wycombe (it's called The Pastures), my bike gets
    up that and other hills such as Marlow Hill, Hedsor Hill and Whitepit Lane
    with no problem and that's with a rider over 100 kg and a full pannier bag
    up The Pastures and Marlow Hill. It was quite slow but still much faster
    than getting off and pushing (which is what many other cyclists I see tend
    to do)!


    websites such as bikely will give height gained and distance covered, or
    just use ordance surveys etc.

    Quoted message said:

    Be aware that the current Giant Twist models have sacrificed the motor drive
    through the gears system in favour of a cheaper less flexible hub motor
    design and has not received the same great reviews as the older models.
    Aside from the mentioned Gazelle Easy Glider, there are other new bikes such
    as the Swiss Flyer range and Swizzbee which use motor power through the
    gears but these cost even more, they are top quality bikes though.


    how many are going to be taken up proper hills though?

    Quoted message said:

    Paul

    roger
    --
    www.rogermerriman.com

  7. "Roger Merriman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Paul Murphy said:

    "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    If anyone has any experience of using an electric bike in a hilly
    area, please let me know what model it was and how effective it was
    (and how steep the hills were).

    As suggested already a system where the motor power goes through the
    gears
    is your friends best bet. I have a 2006 Giant Twist (formerly known as
    the
    LaFree) Comfort with 5 speed gears and have yet to encounter a hill which
    it
    cant get up. I don't know how to find gradients on line but if you know
    the
    hill up to Downley in High Wycombe (it's called The Pastures), my bike
    gets
    up that and other hills such as Marlow Hill, Hedsor Hill and Whitepit
    Lane
    with no problem and that's with a rider over 100 kg and a full pannier
    bag
    up The Pastures and Marlow Hill. It was quite slow but still much faster
    than getting off and pushing (which is what many other cyclists I see
    tend
    to do)!


    websites such as bikely will give height gained and distance covered, or
    just use ordance surveys etc.

    Thanks for the tip. I'll investigate but at first glance this doesn't look
    straight forward (well not as easy as Google Maps for example).

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Be aware that the current Giant Twist models have sacrificed the motor
    drive
    through the gears system in favour of a cheaper less flexible hub motor
    design and has not received the same great reviews as the older models.
    Aside from the mentioned Gazelle Easy Glider, there are other new bikes
    such
    as the Swiss Flyer range and Swizzbee which use motor power through the
    gears but these cost even more, they are top quality bikes though.


    how many are going to be taken up proper hills though?

    This post relates to a person buying an electric assist bike specifically
    for its hill climbing ability. In my eyes that means getting a machine
    designed specifically with hill climbing as a prime consideration. No
    mention was made about needing assistance on the flat. For the reasons
    already mentioned, crank drive systems tend to be the most effective and
    flexible design when hill climbing. While alot of people may be happy with
    the compromise hill climbing performance that a hub drive bike offers (and
    in fairness a few use brute force to perform reasonably well on steep hills,
    at the expense of battery consumption), when hill climbing is mentioned as
    the reason for the electric assist part, I think that means hill climbing
    should be the principle consideration. I wonder how many hub motor bikes
    would be sold if all purchasers understood the advantages of crank drive
    with regards to hill climbing.

    Paul

  8. Paul Murphy said:

    "Roger Merriman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Paul Murphy said:

    "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    > If anyone has any experience of using an electric bike in a hilly
    > area, please let me know what model it was and how effective it was
    > (and how steep the hills were).

    As suggested already a system where the motor power goes through the
    gears
    is your friends best bet. I have a 2006 Giant Twist (formerly known as
    the
    LaFree) Comfort with 5 speed gears and have yet to encounter a hill which
    it
    cant get up. I don't know how to find gradients on line but if you know
    the
    hill up to Downley in High Wycombe (it's called The Pastures), my bike
    gets
    up that and other hills such as Marlow Hill, Hedsor Hill and Whitepit
    Lane
    with no problem and that's with a rider over 100 kg and a full pannier
    bag
    up The Pastures and Marlow Hill. It was quite slow but still much faster
    than getting off and pushing (which is what many other cyclists I see
    tend
    to do)!


    websites such as bikely will give height gained and distance covered, or
    just use ordance surveys etc.

    Thanks for the tip. I'll investigate but at first glance this doesn't look
    straight forward (well not as easy as Google Maps for example).


    heh attaully it is google maps, that is the maps are. most of these
    sites do use google maps.

    any way on the drop down window hit start drawing, put 1st way point on
    start and last on the end of the hill and then click show elevation.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Be aware that the current Giant Twist models have sacrificed the motor
    drive
    through the gears system in favour of a cheaper less flexible hub motor
    design and has not received the same great reviews as the older models.
    Aside from the mentioned Gazelle Easy Glider, there are other new bikes
    such
    as the Swiss Flyer range and Swizzbee which use motor power through the
    gears but these cost even more, they are top quality bikes though.


    how many are going to be taken up proper hills though?

    This post relates to a person buying an electric assist bike specifically
    for its hill climbing ability. In my eyes that means getting a machine
    designed specifically with hill climbing as a prime consideration. No
    mention was made about needing assistance on the flat. For the reasons
    already mentioned, crank drive systems tend to be the most effective and
    flexible design when hill climbing. While alot of people may be happy with
    the compromise hill climbing performance that a hub drive bike offers (and
    in fairness a few use brute force to perform reasonably well on steep hills,
    at the expense of battery consumption), when hill climbing is mentioned as
    the reason for the electric assist part, I think that means hill climbing
    should be the principle consideration. I wonder how many hub motor bikes
    would be sold if all purchasers understood the advantages of crank drive
    with regards to hill climbing.

    Paul

    steepness particaly on bikes is a moveable beast, ie one persons steep
    is anothers hill. but yes the OP's friend is in hilly area thus will
    need a bike that attaully can make it up the hills. attaully in one of
    the bike mags there is electric bike section and one has a geared hub
    motor.

    roger
    --
    www.rogermerriman.com

  9. In article said:


    steepness particaly on bikes is a moveable beast, ie one persons steep
    is anothers hill. but yes the OP's friend is in hilly area thus will
    need a bike that attaully can make it up the hills. attaully in one of
    the bike mags there is electric bike section and one has a geared hub
    motor.

    Hub motors with gears in them are fairly common, but I haven't seen any
    that allow you to change the gear ratio (at least not while using it,
    rather than by dismantling and rebuilding it).
    Rear hubs with a freewheel for derailleur gears are also common, but
    they won't change the motor gear, only the pedal gear.

    It is possible to make a hub motor that effectively switches between
    two gear ratios electrically by switching connections from wye to delta:
    http://www.teamhybrid.co.uk/pages/crystalyte/motor_dual.htm
    (though the link doesn't seem to work at the moment).

    In theory you can do more cunning things, but I'm not sure if Wavecrest
    ever delivered their "Adaptive" hub motor. At 750W it wasn't UK legal
    anyway. http://www.greenspeed.us/wavecrest_electric_motor.htm

  10. Alan Braggins said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Roger
    Merriman wrote: >

    Quoted message said:

    steepness particaly on bikes is a moveable beast, ie one persons steep
    is anothers hill. but yes the OP's friend is in hilly area thus will
    need a bike that attaully can make it up the hills. attaully in one of
    the bike mags there is electric bike section and one has a geared hub
    motor.

    Hub motors with gears in them are fairly common, but I haven't seen any
    that allow you to change the gear ratio (at least not while using it,
    rather than by dismantling and rebuilding it).
    Rear hubs with a freewheel for derailleur gears are also common, but
    they won't change the motor gear, only the pedal gear.

    It is possible to make a hub motor that effectively switches between
    two gear ratios electrically by switching connections from wye to delta:
    http://www.teamhybrid.co.uk/pages/crystalyte/motor_dual.htm
    (though the link doesn't seem to work at the moment).

    In theory you can do more cunning things, but I'm not sure if Wavecrest
    ever delivered their "Adaptive" hub motor. At 750W it wasn't UK legal
    anyway. http://www.greenspeed.us/wavecrest_electric_motor.htm

    maybe some sort of, varible drive system? the trouble is, i guess starts
    to add cost and complexity to a fairly complex system any way.

    also depends what the market attaully wants or needs, if there just
    useing the bikes for getting up hills and against headwinds but not very
    steep hills then maybe the hubgears will work with out a issue.

    roger
    --
    www.rogermerriman.com

  11. "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    A relative of mine lives one one side of the Malvern Hills, and
    works
    on the other. About 7 or 8 miles round trip.

    He cycles occasionaly, but finds it a bit much to do every day
    because
    of the steep climb in both directions. I suggested an electric
    bike,

    [snip]

    Perhaps a question to ask before pursuing the electric route, is how
    low is the lowest gear on the bike he has now? Admittedly the
    Malverns are steep, but with a 19" gear they might be rideable, even
    if only at 2 mph

    Jeremy Parker

  12. "Roger Merriman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Paul Murphy <[email hidden]> wrote:

    any way on the drop down window hit start drawing, put 1st way point on
    start and last on the end of the hill and then click show elevation.

    I gave that a try but the results I obtained for actual climb values weren't
    correct in all the examples I tried (eg The Pastures only shows as being
    about a 250 foot climb) for anyone who's joined the mountain goats at the
    top, it's much more than that, they don't call the area High Wycombe for
    nothing! I shall go out with my GPS when I've figured out how to work it and
    get the figures that way.

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    need a bike that attaully can make it up the hills. attaully in one of
    the bike mags there is electric bike section and one has a geared hub
    motor.

    The geared hub motor is a bit like having a car with only one gear - it's
    still a compromise gear ratio that should cope with scenarios the designer
    incorporates into the bikes performance envelope. Even with a single geared
    hub and adding electronic motor switching as mentioned by Allan, the outcome
    is still nowhere near as flexible as simply having your motor running at
    it's most efficient speed almost all the time like with a car, by changing
    the gears to suit the terrain. When you look at all the electric assist
    bikes that are the prestigious models (eg Swizzbee, Optibike, Swiss Flyer -
    with prices to match), they all incorporate crank drive/motor power through
    the gears designs rather than hub motors.

    Paul

  13. In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Murphy
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    The geared hub motor is a bit like having a car with only one gear - it's
    still a compromise gear ratio that should cope with scenarios the designer
    incorporates into the bikes performance envelope. Even with a single geared
    hub and adding electronic motor switching as mentioned by Allan, the outcome
    is still nowhere near as flexible as simply having your motor running at
    it's most efficient speed almost all the time like with a car,

    Electric motors vary considerably in their torque/speed characteristics,
    but AFAIK none behaves like an internal combustion engine.

  14. Paul Murphy said:

    "Roger Merriman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Paul Murphy <[email hidden]> wrote:

    any way on the drop down window hit start drawing, put 1st way point on
    start and last on the end of the hill and then click show elevation.

    I gave that a try but the results I obtained for actual climb values weren't
    correct in all the examples I tried (eg The Pastures only shows as being
    about a 250 foot climb) for anyone who's joined the mountain goats at the
    top, it's much more than that, they don't call the area High Wycombe for
    nothing! I shall go out with my GPS when I've figured out how to work it and
    get the figures that way.


    the google maps is at best a rought guide, it's still useful.

    Quoted message said:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    need a bike that attaully can make it up the hills. attaully in one of
    the bike mags there is electric bike section and one has a geared hub
    motor.

    The geared hub motor is a bit like having a car with only one gear - it's
    still a compromise gear ratio that should cope with scenarios the designer
    incorporates into the bikes performance envelope. Even with a single geared
    hub and adding electronic motor switching as mentioned by Allan, the outcome
    is still nowhere near as flexible as simply having your motor running at
    it's most efficient speed almost all the time like with a car, by changing
    the gears to suit the terrain. When you look at all the electric assist
    bikes that are the prestigious models (eg Swizzbee, Optibike, Swiss Flyer -
    with prices to match), they all incorporate crank drive/motor power through
    the gears designs rather than hub motors.

    Paul

    well no electric motors have a much broader range of operation, they can
    operatate at zero or even - revs, thus having a number of gears like in
    a car isn't needed as much.

    plus the electric motor is most effient on a low load, and high revs in
    my experance unlike the car which likes high gears, and low revs.

    roger
    --
    www.rogermerriman.com

  15. In article said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Murphy

    Quoted message said:

    The geared hub motor is a bit like having a car with only one gear - it's
    still a compromise gear ratio that should cope with scenarios the designer
    incorporates into the bikes performance envelope. Even with a single geared
    hub and adding electronic motor switching as mentioned by Allan, the outcome
    is still nowhere near as flexible as simply having your motor running at
    it's most efficient speed almost all the time like with a car,

    Electric motors vary considerably in their torque/speed characteristics,
    but AFAIK none behaves like an internal combustion engine.

    No, in particular many have maximum torque when stalled, but there is
    generally a single most efficient speed, and a (different) single speed
    where they produce the most power, and multiple gears help match this
    to different road speeds.

    Cyclists pedalling don't behave like internal combustion engines either,
    (a single speed bike is more usable than a single speed car) but they are
    also more efficient on varying terrain with multiple gears.

  16. In article <[email hidden]>, Roger
    Merriman
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    plus the electric motor is most effient on a low load, and high revs in
    my experance unlike the car which likes high gears, and low revs.


    AIUI maximum efficiency occurs at maximum torque, which in the case of
    some types of electric motor will be at very low revs, but in the case
    of ICEs it's generally somewhere in the middle of the rev range[1].
    Electric trains don't have gears, despite that fact that they need to
    produce very high starting torque and also push out high power while
    running efficiently at higher speeds.

    [1] The flexibility of an engine is basically determined by the
    difference in revs between maximum torque and maximum power. Some
    engines don't need this - a diesel generator is designed to run in a
    very narrow rev range without variable gearing[2]. Road vehicle engines
    need flexibility to avoid changing gears all the time. Race-tuned
    engines are designed to produce maximum torque at higher speeds, because
    power is the product of torque and revs, and race engines generally need
    high power at the cost of mid-range flexibility - this is why they need
    close-ratio gears to keep the engine speed in the narrow power band.

    [2] Different types of ICE also have different load characteristics -
    generally diesels work well at high load in a narrower rev range, while
    petrol engines work better at moderate load over a broader rev range.
    Turbos or blowers can be used to modify these basic characteristics - a
    turbocharged petrol engine is basically set up to give a broad torque
    curve when conventionally aspirated, and when the turbo kicks in it
    boosts the curve and pushes it up the rev range.

    [3] It's a long time since I studied this stuff, so I might have
    misremembered something.

  17. Rob Morley said:

    AIUI maximum efficiency occurs at maximum torque

    No ! For a DC/universal motor maximum torque is stationary so no.

    Jon

  18. In article said:

    Electric trains don't have gears, despite that fact that they need to
    produce very high starting torque and also push out high power while
    running efficiently at higher speeds.

    What they don't do is put out the same power efficiently at much lower
    speeds to climb steep hills. Low efficiency of low speed high torque
    operation is less important when (a) it's a transient acceleration
    starting off and (b) it isn't draining a limited capacity battery.

    Having said that, there are also road vehicles that use hub motors
    without multiple gears, like the Vectrix scooter or the Lightning car
    (not actually in production yet), but not necessarily while using the
    sort of relatively cheap and simple motors and controllers that a power
    assisted bike typically does.

  19. "Alan Braggins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Rob Morley

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Murphy

    Quoted message said:

    The geared hub motor is a bit like having a car with only one gear -
    it's
    still a compromise gear ratio that should cope with scenarios the
    designer
    incorporates into the bikes performance envelope. Even with a single
    geared
    hub and adding electronic motor switching as mentioned by Allan, the
    outcome
    is still nowhere near as flexible as simply having your motor running at
    it's most efficient speed almost all the time like with a car,

    Electric motors vary considerably in their torque/speed characteristics,
    but AFAIK none behaves like an internal combustion engine.

    No, in particular many have maximum torque when stalled, but there is
    generally a single most efficient speed, and a (different) single speed
    where they produce the most power, and multiple gears help match this
    to different road speeds.

    Exactly my thoughts. I specifically used the word 'bit' with knowledge that
    there are fundamental differences including the points you've mentioned. The
    difference in efficiency can be huge when motors are made to run under a
    very wide rpm range. Bicycle gears on the other hand are pretty consistent
    in terms of efficiency irrespective of whether 1st or top is selected.

    Paul

  20. "Roger Merriman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Paul Murphy said:

    The geared hub motor is a bit like having a car with only one gear - it's
    still a compromise gear ratio that should cope with scenarios the
    designer
    incorporates into the bikes performance envelope. Even with a single
    geared
    hub and adding electronic motor switching as mentioned by Allan, the
    outcome
    is still nowhere near as flexible as simply having your motor running at
    it's most efficient speed almost all the time like with a car, by
    changing
    the gears to suit the terrain. When you look at all the electric assist
    bikes that are the prestigious models (eg Swizzbee, Optibike, Swiss
    Flyer -
    with prices to match), they all incorporate crank drive/motor power
    through
    the gears designs rather than hub motors.

    Paul

    well no electric motors have a much broader range of operation, they can
    operatate at zero or even - revs, thus having a number of gears like in
    a car isn't needed as much.

    Not needed as much but if you want top efficiency under varied terrain,
    still the best bet. Anything else is a compromise. A single gear motor bike
    may be a closer match. Although there are electric motorbikes without gears
    (those mentioned were at the recent New Forrest electric bike rally a few
    months ago), These weigh ALOT more than electric bicycles and have massive
    heavy high capacity batteries and motors rated at several kilowatts power
    output, efficiency isn't so crucial for these machines.

    Paul

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