Electric Cycle Subsidy

In news:[email hidden],
Tony Raven <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

That's a very personal question to ask about Prince Charles ;-)

And the answer is 'about twelve feet long'.

Did you use a ruler?

Tape measure, I'd have thought.

But the answer given makes me feel slightly inadequate. But I am glad I
don't need my butler to hold it for me.

A

Paul Rudin said:

I was really respoding to the comparison with the energy required to
"post here from a desktop computer" which is, I think, misleading.

Exactly. Desktop computers are the cars of the computer world. If you
posted here from a Psion5mx which runs for 30-50 hrs on a pair of AAs,
and a mobile phone as modem, both of which can easily be carried on a
bicycle, posting here only takes a fraction of a watt.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

"Chris Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul Rudin said:

I was really respoding to the comparison with the energy required to
"post here from a desktop computer" which is, I think, misleading.

Exactly. Desktop computers are the cars of the computer world. If you
posted here from a Psion5mx which runs for 30-50 hrs on a pair of AAs,
and a mobile phone as modem, both of which can easily be carried on a
bicycle, posting here only takes a fraction of a watt.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

But their manufacture consumed huge amounts of energy - possibly more
than making a car. You have to add that energy cost into the cost of
posting here. On that basis desk tops and Psions are probably about the
same.

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:19:10 +0100, "Geoff Pearson"
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

"Chris Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul Rudin said:

I was really respoding to the comparison with the energy required to
"post here from a desktop computer" which is, I think, misleading.

Exactly. Desktop computers are the cars of the computer world. If you
posted here from a Psion5mx which runs for 30-50 hrs on a pair of AAs,
and a mobile phone as modem, both of which can easily be carried on a
bicycle, posting here only takes a fraction of a watt.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

But their manufacture consumed huge amounts of energy - possibly more
than making a car. You have to add that energy cost into the cost of
posting here. On that basis desk tops and Psions are probably about the
same.

Are you really trying to contend that a Psion's small transistor count
over a few chips, a pair of PCBs and a small case, is equivalent to
that of a desktop PC, with it's many PCBs, high chip count, many chips
containing very high transistor counts, and large cases, keyboards and
displays?

Never mind the energy cost of cars, each of which has a very
considerable amount of chips and pcbs in it these days, even before
you go into the smelting and welding energy costs of large metal body
shells, suspension componentry and engine parts?

(The manufacturing + decommisioning energy costs of cars were reckoned
(in an American study of 1990) to be equivalent to 14 years use and
maintenance energy costs, at typical annual mileages, btw).

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

In news:[email hidden],
Gawnsoft <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:19:10 +0100, "Geoff Pearson"
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

But their manufacture consumed huge amounts of energy - possibly more
than making a car. You have to add that energy cost into the cost of
posting here. On that basis desk tops and Psions are probably about
the same.

A car uses 120 GJ [of energy] in manufacture, which is about £800 worth of
gas or £1600 worth of electricity (priced at about 2.5p & 5p / kWh
respectively). A Psion cost about £200 of which a significant amount was
probably R & D, retailer margin, etc, so I doubt it could come anywhere near
even £50 worth of energy in its manufacture, i.e. 1/16th the amount.

Quoted message said:

(The manufacturing + decommisioning energy costs of cars were reckoned
(in an American study of 1990) to be equivalent to 14 years use and
maintenance energy costs, at typical annual mileages, btw).

http://www.ilea.org/lcas/macleanlave1998.html (source of above figure as
well) gives 878 GJ of fuel for a 14 year life cycle, plus 105GJ for refining
and transporting the fuel. I'd be interested in a citation for your figure.

Ambrose

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:17:15 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

In news:[email hidden],
Gawnsoft <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:19:10 +0100, "Geoff Pearson"
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

But their manufacture consumed huge amounts of energy - possibly more
than making a car. You have to add that energy cost into the cost of
posting here. On that basis desk tops and Psions are probably about
the same.

A car uses 120 GJ [of energy] in manufacture, which is about £800 worth of
gas or £1600 worth of electricity (priced at about 2.5p & 5p / kWh
respectively). A Psion cost about £200 of which a significant amount was
probably R & D, retailer margin, etc, so I doubt it could come anywhere near
even £50 worth of energy in its manufacture, i.e. 1/16th the amount.

Quoted message said:

(The manufacturing + decommisioning energy costs of cars were reckoned
(in an American study of 1990) to be equivalent to 14 years use and
maintenance energy costs, at typical annual mileages, btw).

http://www.ilea.org/lcas/macleanlave1998.html (source of above figure as
well) gives 878 GJ of fuel for a 14 year life cycle, plus 105GJ for refining
and transporting the fuel. I'd be interested in a citation for your figure.

I'm trying to get it myself... it was a 1990 study, from pone of the
north-eastern US unis, e.g MIT or Harvard.

As soon as I get the name rank and serial number, I'll post. (may
take a while, for which I apologise in advance)

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk