Electric Hybrid

Jeff Grippe said:

Has anyone ever hear of a bike/trike/quad setup where the vehicle is
powered by batteries and the pedaling is strictly used to charge the
batteries. This type of setup would/could allow someone to choose the
level of resistance that they desire for cycling and still have a
vehicle that moves. I don't think that this would qualify as an HPV
since it would really be an electric vehicle with the option of using
a human to charge it.

Driving a generator to charge a battery to drive a motor is going to be
*way* more inefficient that a simple chain drive and derailleur. Who wants
to pedal harder than they have to already to make progress?

Tim

Tim Downie said:

Jeff Grippe said:

Has anyone ever hear of a bike/trike/quad setup where the vehicle is
powered by batteries and the pedaling is strictly used to charge the
batteries. This type of setup would/could allow someone to choose the
level of resistance that they desire for cycling and still have a
vehicle that moves. I don't think that this would qualify as an HPV
since it would really be an electric vehicle with the option of using
a human to charge it.

Driving a generator to charge a battery to drive a motor is going to be
*way* more inefficient that a simple chain drive and derailleur. Who wants
to pedal harder than they have to already to make progress?

Tim

It seems to me that the vehicle would weight so much and would take so
much electricity to drive it that you would have to a very high gear
ratio in order to spin the generator fast enough to charge the batteries
to drive the vehicle that you would be much better off just buying a
nice lightweight bicycle.

Ken
--
The bicycle is just as good company as most husbands and, when it gets
old and shabby, a woman can dispose of it and get a new one without
shocking the entire community. ~Ann Strong

Jeff Grippe said:

Has anyone ever hear of a bike/trike/quad setup where the vehicle is powered
by batteries and the pedaling is strictly used to charge the batteries. This
type of setup would/could allow someone to choose the level of resistance
that they desire for cycling and still have a vehicle that moves. I don't
think that this would qualify as an HPV since it would really be an electric
vehicle with the option of using a human to charge it.

Seems like a bad alternative way of providing an electric assist, which
is already widely available. Some assist systems /require/ a degree of
pedalling input (Pedelecs), but others let the rider choose to either do
all the work themselves, some of it, or (at least for a time) nothing.
You might wonder why you'd want the former, but legislation and legailty
accounts for most of the answers.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 07:11:21 -0500, "Jeff Grippe" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Has anyone ever hear of a bike/trike/quad setup where the vehicle is powered
by batteries and the pedaling is strictly used to charge the batteries. This
type of setup would/could allow someone to choose the level of resistance
that they desire for cycling and still have a vehicle that moves. I don't
think that this would qualify as an HPV since it would really be an electric
vehicle with the option of using a human to charge it.

Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?

Any competent engineer would look at the significant power losses in
the two points of energy conversion of crank->generation and
generation->storage, and immediately conclude that this was a really,
really intensely bad idea by comparison to direct coupling of the
crank to the wheel via a chain.

Yes, I am dead certain that what you propose has been tried, since
examples of battery-powered bicycles and examples of human-powered
generation systems are trivially easy to find as far back as the first
decade of the 20th century. The fact that no such lash-up as you
propose is actually produced for sale, when there has been a hundred
years' worth of experimentation involved, should be a big clue.

Do not let my observations dissuade you from spending your own money
in an attempt to make it work, however. Some of us value the
entertainment factor in watching such endeavors as they are pursued to
their conclusion. I would, however, counsel against seeking venture
capital for the project; some investors have a tendency to become a
bit testy when their money proves ill-spent.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Peter Clinch said:

Jeff Grippe said:

Has anyone ever hear of a bike/trike/quad setup where the vehicle is powered
by batteries and the pedaling is strictly used to charge the batteries. This
type of setup would/could allow someone to choose the level of resistance
that they desire for cycling and still have a vehicle that moves. I don't
think that this would qualify as an HPV since it would really be an electric
vehicle with the option of using a human to charge it.

Seems like a bad alternative way of providing an electric assist, which
is already widely available. Some assist systems /require/ a degree of
pedalling input (Pedelecs), but others let the rider choose to either do
all the work themselves, some of it, or (at least for a time) nothing.
You might wonder why you'd want the former, but legislation and legailty
accounts for most of the answers.

I believe that lack of range on batteries and the uselessness of a
vehicle that has a grossly inefficient drivetrain is a far more
important factor in the way electric-assist bikes are made.

Oh, and lest anyone start flogging the regenerative braking horse yet
again, the bloody corpse decayed into a festering mass and was
shoveled out into the dumpster long since. Please do your flailing
out there.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

BionX makes such electric assist setups. While there isn't true recharging,
there is regenerative ability while braking etc. On the BionX units you can
set the assist to 25%, 50%, 100% or 200% and, I believe there is different
settings for the regenerating. I have seen the set up on Catrike Road
trikes. The guy who rides it is like superman on the hills. They are pretty
pricy though, about $1500.00 Canadian for the most powerful motor and best
battery combination.

Grolsch

"Jeff Grippe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Has anyone ever hear of a bike/trike/quad setup where the vehicle is
powered by batteries and the pedaling is strictly used to charge the
batteries. This type of setup would/could allow someone to choose the
level of resistance that they desire for cycling and still have a vehicle
that moves. I don't think that this would qualify as an HPV since it would
really be an electric vehicle with the option of using a human to charge
it.

Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?

Jeff

Werehatrack said:

Peter Clinch said:

Jeff Grippe said:

Has anyone ever hear of a bike/trike/quad setup where the vehicle is powered
by batteries and the pedaling is strictly used to charge the batteries. This
type of setup would/could allow someone to choose the level of resistance
that they desire for cycling and still have a vehicle that moves. I don't
think that this would qualify as an HPV since it would really be an electric
vehicle with the option of using a human to charge it.

Seems like a bad alternative way of providing an electric assist, which
is already widely available. Some assist systems /require/ a degree of
pedalling input (Pedelecs), but others let the rider choose to either do
all the work themselves, some of it, or (at least for a time) nothing.
You might wonder why you'd want the former, but legislation and legailty
accounts for most of the answers.

I believe that lack of range on batteries and the uselessness of a
vehicle that has a grossly inefficient drivetrain is a far more
important factor in the way electric-assist bikes are made.

Oh, and lest anyone start flogging the regenerative braking horse yet
again, the bloody corpse decayed into a festering mass and was
shoveled out into the dumpster long since. Please do your flailing
out there.

Do you mean the Vectrix motor scooter

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/03/vectrix_electri_1.php

Sniper8052

Jeff Grippe said:

Has anyone ever hear of a bike/trike/quad setup where the vehicle is powered
by batteries and the pedaling is strictly used to charge the batteries.

You might want to look up the efficiency of a battery to see why this
is a bad idea.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

Werehatrack said:

Oh, and lest anyone start flogging the regenerative braking horse yet
again, the bloody corpse decayed into a festering mass and was
shoveled out into the dumpster long since. Please do your flailing
out there.

Do you mean the Vectrix motor scooter

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/03/vectrix_electri_1.php

It can recover up to 5% of the energy used in acceleration when
braking[1]. That's not enough to extend the range appreciably.

In any event, that is not a bicycle of any type. It's an electric
scooter.

[1] If they claim more than 5%, what else are they exaggerating?
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Grolch said:

BionX makes such electric assist setups. While there isn't true
recharging, there is regenerative ability while braking etc. On the
BionX units you can set the assist to 25%, 50%, 100% or 200% and, I
believe there is different settings for the regenerating. I have seen
the set up on Catrike Road trikes. The guy who rides it is like
superman on the hills.

Please elaorate. Do you mean he rides up hills wearing a cape, rides up
hills effortlessly or rides up hills putting in an effort that only Superman
is capable of?

Tim

"Tim Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Grolch said:

BionX makes such electric assist setups. While there isn't true
recharging, there is regenerative ability while braking etc. On the
BionX units you can set the assist to 25%, 50%, 100% or 200% and, I
believe there is different settings for the regenerating. I have seen
the set up on Catrike Road trikes. The guy who rides it is like
superman on the hills.

Please elaorate. Do you mean he rides up hills wearing a cape, rides up
hills effortlessly or rides up hills putting in an effort that only
Superman is capable of?

Tim

He rides up hills like I wish I could... effortlessly

"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 07:11:21 -0500, "Jeff Grippe" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Has anyone ever hear of a bike/trike/quad setup where the vehicle is
powered
by batteries and the pedaling is strictly used to charge the batteries.
This
type of setup would/could allow someone to choose the level of resistance
that they desire for cycling and still have a vehicle that moves. I don't
think that this would qualify as an HPV since it would really be an
electric
vehicle with the option of using a human to charge it.

Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?

Any competent engineer would look at the significant power losses in
the two points of energy conversion of crank->generation and
generation->storage, and immediately conclude that this was a really,
really intensely bad idea by comparison to direct coupling of the
crank to the wheel via a chain.

Yes, I am dead certain that what you propose has been tried, since
examples of battery-powered bicycles and examples of human-powered
generation systems are trivially easy to find as far back as the first
decade of the 20th century. The fact that no such lash-up as you
propose is actually produced for sale, when there has been a hundred
years' worth of experimentation involved, should be a big clue.

Contact Union Pacific. They use that but they have 5000 hp diesels running
alternators without no battery assist. What's a little ineffiency between
friends on this one.

Quoted message said:

Do not let my observations dissuade you from spending your own money
in an attempt to make it work, however. Some of us value the
entertainment factor in watching such endeavors as they are pursued to
their conclusion. I would, however, counsel against seeking venture
capital for the project; some investors have a tendency to become a
bit testy when their money proves ill-spent.

You should see my latest creation. I made an Electric Chopper Bike with
about a 15 mile range. It doesn't even look like a bicycle at all but under
all that trim is still a pedal bike.

"Bill Z." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jeff Grippe said:

Has anyone ever hear of a bike/trike/quad setup where the vehicle is
powered
by batteries and the pedaling is strictly used to charge the batteries.

You might want to look up the efficiency of a battery to see why this
is a bad idea.

Batteries regen a bit if you just let them sit. I do this all the time.
The Yellow comes on and I slow it down and pedal for a bit. Then I motor
for a bit, pedal for a bit, etc.. This helps to extend the range by one or
two miles. Of course, at some point, I will be almost exclusively
pedalling.

"Jeff Grippe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Has anyone ever hear of a bike/trike/quad setup where the vehicle is
powered by batteries and the pedaling is strictly used to charge the
batteries. This type of setup would/could allow someone to choose the
level of resistance that they desire for cycling and still have a vehicle
that moves. I don't think that this would qualify as an HPV since it would
really be an electric vehicle with the option of using a human to charge
it.

Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?

Jeff

There is the famous Twike http://www.twike.us/
It is a side by side tandem passenger all weather electric assist vehicle.
But if you have to ask how much it costs you cannot afford it.

In article Heq2h.40042$P7.34334@edtnps89 said:

BionX makes such electric assist setups. While there isn't true recharging,
there is regenerative ability while braking etc. On the BionX units you can
set the assist to 25%, 50%, 100% or 200% and, I believe there is different
settings for the regenerating. I have seen the set up on Catrike Road
trikes. The guy who rides it is like superman on the hills.

Especially useful if you have a heavy but aerodynamic vehicle:
http://www.waw-bionx.blogspot.com/
Consider that touring tandems often have drag brakes for use on long
descents, and a velomobile is going to be faster if not braked and
only have one person pedalling the weight up the next hill.

In news:0gv2h.78625$E67.16048@clgrps13,
Grolch <[email hidden]> scribed:

Quoted message said:

"Tim Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Grolch said:

BionX makes such electric assist setups. While there isn't true
recharging, there is regenerative ability while braking etc. On the
BionX units you can set the assist to 25%, 50%, 100% or 200% and, I
believe there is different settings for the regenerating. I have
seen the set up on Catrike Road trikes. The guy who rides it is like
superman on the hills.

Please elaorate. Do you mean he rides up hills wearing a cape,
rides up hills effortlessly or rides up hills putting in an effort
that only Superman is capable of?

Tim

He rides up hills like I wish I could... effortlessly

It's easy. Just buy a motorbike.

Oh, wait...

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
I thought I saw his name on a jar of marmalade the other day,
but when I looked more closely, I saw it read 'thick cut'.

"Sniper8052(L96A1)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Do you mean the Vectrix motor scooter

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/03/vectrix_electri_1.php

FFS! £6900.

They're not going to sell many of those at that price.

Tom
--
Return address is dead. Real address is at
http://www.happy-penguin.info/address.jpg

"Ken C. M." <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Tim Downie said:

Jeff Grippe said:

Has anyone ever hear of a bike/trike/quad setup where the vehicle is
powered by batteries and the pedaling is strictly used to charge the
batteries. This type of setup would/could allow someone to choose
the level of resistance that they desire for cycling and still have
a vehicle that moves. I don't think that this would qualify as an
HPV since it would really be an electric vehicle with the option of
using a human to charge it.

Driving a generator to charge a battery to drive a motor is going to
be *way* more inefficient that a simple chain drive and derailleur.
Who wants to pedal harder than they have to already to make progress?

Tim

It seems to me that the vehicle would weight so much and would take so
much electricity to drive it that you would have to a very high gear
ratio in order to spin the generator fast enough to charge the
batteries to drive the vehicle that you would be much better off just
buying a nice lightweight bicycle.

Ken

Add Solar Cell's and this is viable, not a HPV, but good cheap
transportation

Chris Foster

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Daryl Hunt" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 07:11:21 -0500, "Jeff Grippe" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Has anyone ever hear of a bike/trike/quad setup where the vehicle is
powered
by batteries and the pedaling is strictly used to charge the
batteries. This
type of setup would/could allow someone to choose the level of
resistance that they desire for cycling and still have a vehicle that
moves. I don't think that this would qualify as an HPV since it would
really be an electric
vehicle with the option of using a human to charge it.

Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?

Any competent engineer would look at the significant power losses in
the two points of energy conversion of crank->generation and
generation->storage, and immediately conclude that this was a really,
really intensely bad idea by comparison to direct coupling of the
crank to the wheel via a chain.

Yes, I am dead certain that what you propose has been tried, since
examples of battery-powered bicycles and examples of human-powered
generation systems are trivially easy to find as far back as the
first decade of the 20th century. The fact that no such lash-up as
you propose is actually produced for sale, when there has been a
hundred years' worth of experimentation involved, should be a big
clue.

Contact Union Pacific. They use that but they have 5000 hp diesels
running alternators without no battery assist. What's a little
ineffiency between friends on this one.

Quoted message said:

Do not let my observations dissuade you from spending your own money
in an attempt to make it work, however. Some of us value the
entertainment factor in watching such endeavors as they are pursued
to their conclusion. I would, however, counsel against seeking
venture capital for the project; some investors have a tendency to
become a bit testy when their money proves ill-spent.

You should see my latest creation. I made an Electric Chopper Bike
with about a 15 mile range. It doesn't even look like a bicycle at
all but under all that trim is still a pedal bike.

MG set (motor - generator sets) are at best 70% efficient. The rest of
theenergy goes into heat. Batteries are 40 - 70% efficient (getting
better and better all the time)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com