electronic Dura Ace Di2
- Thread starter vspa
- Start date
vspa said:what about an automatic shifting system based on your pulse, power output and cadence
Too hard to do. Such a system would have to be tuned not only to the specific rider, but also to his/her current fitness, the length and history of the ride, etc., etc. Pretty much impossible to get right, unless you can directly control the system with your brain. That's going to be the next generation...
I'll buy it when it lands in the rubbish tip. Then it is either rubbish or negligently discarded good stuff. I'm old-school and my rush is finding the discarded good stuff both old and new .
Buying the latest technology is very expensive and you become a guinea pig. If you can afford the risk then go for it!
.Buying the latest technology is very expensive and you become a guinea pig. If you can afford the risk then go for it!
Not so difficult! Heart monitors are a cheap watch, blood oxygen retention is as easy to measure as cadence. Add an inclinometer, power meter and whatever. A simple black box found in any automobile will monitor 100's of variables 100's times a second and deliver according to your desire.Dietmar said:
Where money is no object to winning is where we will see real results.
Don't knock Di2 until you've tried it (I love the bashers who hasn't tried or even seen the stuff but are convinced it's useless). I was skeptical at it's introduction, until I had a run on it. It is simply excellent. Will it transform a Cat 4 into a Cat 2 rider? A wheelsucker into a breakaway god? No. But neither will $5000 Lightweight wheelsets, $8000 carbon everything bikes, etc.
Di2 a great development for cycle componentry. The price is admittedly high but so is any component that is new and "exotic" in the high end road bike world. I would get Di2 tomorrow if it wasn't for the fact that I don't need another mortgage. Regardless of the bashers, electronic shifting is here and we will see more of it. Shimano is not the only ones who think so, Mavic already had a go at it (and failed with Zap and Mektronic)and even Campy are just lurking around the bend with their own version.
To the guys who think anything beyond 5 speeds and downtube shifters are a waste of time, I'm just glad you don't run the R&D depts at any company. Or we'd all still be watching 19" TV's and driving barges around and think we've reached the pinnacle.
Di2 a great development for cycle componentry. The price is admittedly high but so is any component that is new and "exotic" in the high end road bike world. I would get Di2 tomorrow if it wasn't for the fact that I don't need another mortgage. Regardless of the bashers, electronic shifting is here and we will see more of it. Shimano is not the only ones who think so, Mavic already had a go at it (and failed with Zap and Mektronic)and even Campy are just lurking around the bend with their own version.
To the guys who think anything beyond 5 speeds and downtube shifters are a waste of time, I'm just glad you don't run the R&D depts at any company. Or we'd all still be watching 19" TV's and driving barges around and think we've reached the pinnacle.
Tech, I certainly agree that you need development or nothing will ever progress. You definately have an arguement there. As someone who has a few hours of riding on a Di2 demo, i agree, its pretty kickass, but what i dont agree on is that it made anything better. To me its kinda like Ferrari...its available for anyone, but only a select few can really own them. Everyone else drives "normal" cars. At the end of the day, the guy in the ferrari is limited to the same speed limit as the guy in the civic.
When the price comes down to the point that most people can afford it, i definately agree that its the future of group sets, but until the time that there are competators on the market that can cause the price to go down, i dont really see it revolutionizing anything... A select few will buy it to say "hey my balls are bigger than yours" and the rest of us will continue to use mechanical shifters and will likely shift just as easily.
When the price comes down to the point that most people can afford it, i definately agree that its the future of group sets, but until the time that there are competators on the market that can cause the price to go down, i dont really see it revolutionizing anything... A select few will buy it to say "hey my balls are bigger than yours" and the rest of us will continue to use mechanical shifters and will likely shift just as easily.
Tech72 said:
Well, I had asked a very specific question, and none of the Di2 promoters seems willing or able to answer it. Here it is again: My current mechanical group shifts perfectly, quick and crisp, up, down, across multiple cogs (can Di2 even do that?), with or without load. Oh, and I do not have to trim my front derailleur either, except when I go to my largest (of eleven, mind you) cogs, which I hardly ever do. If I'd stick to the ten cogs available to Di2, I'd never have to trim at all. I simply cannot see how you could improve on that. So, riddle me this: In what respect is Di2 better than what I just described? What more could I ask for?
P.S.: I'm not really knocking Di2 at all. It is, I assume, a fine groupset. I am just not sure there is a big gain to be had from it.
Comments by the last two posters are spot on. It's mistake to assume the people raising questions about Di2 are anti-progess or against new tech. That's not the case at all. The question is and has been what is it, exactly, that makes Di2 better and is it worth the price of entry? Shifting is already effortless, and I don't see how shifting of few milliseconds faster is benefit worth the cost. No one has questioned if it works as designed. No doubt, it does.
Dietmar said:
I think a recent test by Cyclingnews had a part that summed it up pretty well(altho sometimes they seem to love anything new). The shifting performance is more consistent over time. That is,unlike a cable actuated system, where inner wires and housing degrade and effects shifting, the electronic does not(as log as the battery has a charge).
It is no faster, no more accurate and has some limitations, like sweeping up the cogset to a lower gear(cannot) like all the other mechanical shifters or dumping all the way down to the highest gear(like Campagnolo). So, in this regard, it is slower(push, push, push to get any multiple gear up or down). PLUS teeny buttons, wear gloves in the cooler months and you are going to shift the wrong way.
I rode a Scott with it, yep it works, front der action was very good(altho no better than 7900. The stiff, STIFF big ring is the biggest reason for this). I even got used to the 'whir, whir of the FD as it trimmed around. Is it 'worth' it. Personal choice but it won't be on any of my bicycles any time.
If friction shifting was level 1 and down tube index shifting level 2, STI, Ergo, Double tap cable shifting level 3 then Electronic shifting level 4. Along the way each step making small improvements to the way we ride because of the control we have over shifting and braking.
Di2 allows for faster,easier more accurate shifting in almost all scenarios "except the campy full cassette dump" because of this I find myself making more shifts spending more of my ride in the optimal gear. I understand some of us are saying we achieve this with cable actuated systems but these systems are not up to the speed, ease and accuracy of the Di2. It's marginal no doubt but notable because it defies what was the standard.
eg. in a race, on a climb, pressure is on, as you crest the climb someone attacks and you are gapped. You start to chase in the small blade and make a seamless shift to the big ring. Di2 makes this shift faster and you close the gap easier. Marginal I know but we all know making the cut or getting gapped is a thin line at times.
eg. 5 hour group ride in rolling hills with a feisty group. Di2 has you making more shifts and spending more time in the optimal gear. If you think you already do this with cable actuated group try suspending disbelief for a brief moment and imagine you are making more shifts because it's easier, faster and more accurate. Over the 5 hours you save your legs just 3 or 4 times more than you would have and at the end on the final climb you have just a little more left in the tank to make the cut.
The difference between level 3 and level 4 is small but it's there. With price and technical shortcommings that will be remedied over time aside, electronic shifting is better not a revolution or a new way of riding it's just better.
Di2 allows for faster,easier more accurate shifting in almost all scenarios "except the campy full cassette dump" because of this I find myself making more shifts spending more of my ride in the optimal gear. I understand some of us are saying we achieve this with cable actuated systems but these systems are not up to the speed, ease and accuracy of the Di2. It's marginal no doubt but notable because it defies what was the standard.
eg. in a race, on a climb, pressure is on, as you crest the climb someone attacks and you are gapped. You start to chase in the small blade and make a seamless shift to the big ring. Di2 makes this shift faster and you close the gap easier. Marginal I know but we all know making the cut or getting gapped is a thin line at times.
eg. 5 hour group ride in rolling hills with a feisty group. Di2 has you making more shifts and spending more time in the optimal gear. If you think you already do this with cable actuated group try suspending disbelief for a brief moment and imagine you are making more shifts because it's easier, faster and more accurate. Over the 5 hours you save your legs just 3 or 4 times more than you would have and at the end on the final climb you have just a little more left in the tank to make the cut.
The difference between level 3 and level 4 is small but it's there. With price and technical shortcommings that will be remedied over time aside, electronic shifting is better not a revolution or a new way of riding it's just better.
Peter@vecchios said:
Interesting; thanks for your thoughts. This agrees with the review that I have seen here. In fairness, they were reviewing a pre-production version, but most of their observations are probably still true for the Di2 that's being sold now. Based on these comments, and now yours, I would say that, on balance, Di2 does not really buy you any worthwhile advantages. To me it looks like, even if there was no price premium for Di2, I might still opt for the mechanical group (noting that, for example, the jury on the longevity of the electric actuators is still out; nobody has yet put tens of thousands of miles on such a group). Then add in the fact that this will add more than a grand to the price of a group, I think my position is "thanks, but no thanks", for now anyway. Who knows, maybe when Campy unveils its own take at electronic shifting (which, naturally, will result in a much better product than Shimano's
), I'll rethink this.
cwdzoot said:
There's a number of inaccuracies here. First and foremost, STI-like shifting was indeed a big benefit over downtube shifters in a whole number of respects. The step of going from mechanical to electronic is nothing like that; far from it.
cwdzoot said:
Well, as a matter of fact, the reviews we have just discussed do not support your claims about shifting speed at all, even for single shifts.
In addition, I don't know about you, but when I find myself in a sub-optimal gear, I shift. This implied idea of higher "shifting effort" for a mechanical group is simply ludicrous, in my opinion. Get yourself a single-speed if that is too much of an effort for you...
Finally, on accuracy, all I can say is that my mechanical group shifts perfectly accurate. Which is what you would expect when you read adverstising blurbs for the newest groups during the last ten years, with every group being touted as shifting even more precise than the previous one. Seriously, how much more precise do you think you can get?
cwdzoot said:
I doubt you'll go to the big ring any faster with Di2 than I can slap the chain up with my Campy SR derailleur, because that's instantaneous for all intents and purposes. In any case, even if there was a difference, it would necessarily have to be so small as to be meaningless. Oh, and it looks like you have a significantly better chance of mis-shifting (due to user error, to be sure) with Di2 than with a mechanical group, precisely when "the heat is on". It seems too easy to hit the wrong button. Not good at all.
cwdzoot said:
Like I said above, I think that is complete nonsense. Let me put this in very succinct terms: If you make any less shifts with your mechanical group than with a Di2 (because it's "easier"; we have already established that it's not any faster or more accurate), then you don't know how to ride a modern road bike. I recommend the SS: no shifting effort at all.
cwdzoot said:
Well, now, look here! What in the world could you be talking about? "Technical shortcomings" in Di2?!
Thats a good point about the electronics...how long will it last and what will the pricetag be on a replacement part or repairing it. Most electronic devices are really not designed to last more than 5 or so years (btw that is not my opinion...that is coming from an electrical engineer with 30+ years experience). Theres a reason your cell phone company lets you get a new phone every few years for cheap. I have close to 8000 miles on my mechanical dura ace and it costs me maybe $20 a year for new cables.
Also, how durable is it in a crash. Anyone thats gonna spend 3g on a grouppo probably races, and has either crashed hard or will crash hard. Again, back to the cell phone example...next time youre in the car doin 30mph, drop your phone out the window and tell me how it works for you. I feel like having something that expensive on my bike would hold me back in fear of ruining it rather than pushing me harder
Also, how durable is it in a crash. Anyone thats gonna spend 3g on a grouppo probably races, and has either crashed hard or will crash hard. Again, back to the cell phone example...next time youre in the car doin 30mph, drop your phone out the window and tell me how it works for you. I feel like having something that expensive on my bike would hold me back in fear of ruining it rather than pushing me harder
cwdzoot said:
My last post because some are really impressed by this system but you say,
"it's just better." and
"Di2 allows for faster,easier more accurate shifting in almost all scenarios"
'Better' is a pretty big word. I think my friction downtube shifters are better than indexed ones because my rear derailleur is always adjusted.
Di2 not faster, not more accurate. The chain gets there on either a mechanical or electronic system. If you are coming around a corner with that same feisty group and come to the base of a HUGE hill you didn't know about, that guy with 7800, Campagnolo or Sram is going to get to a lower gear before you on Di2.
Ya push the button, the chain waits until it finds the shift 'window', it shifts, mechanical or electronic. It's accuracy lasts longer over time but like electronic paddle shifters on your Subaru WRX, this system may not be 'worth it' to the average guy who pedals around on Sunday or takes his Subaru to Safeway to buy eggs.
But if it blows yer skirt up, go buy it and use it...good for you.
After having a chance to ride a Di2 bike this past weekend, Dietmar, Feltski, and Peter are pretty much right on the mark. The bike is my cousin's custom Crumpton SL Road which fits me pretty well ( a couple of mm less reach). I used it on a 30 mile ride and it was fun using a different group than what I was used to, but I didn't ride any faster than I normally do, I didn't shift more than what is required for the terrain, and the shifts were not any more precise than what I am used to. In fact, there seems to be a very slight hesitation in the shifts. Not so much that it is really noticable unless you ride it right after riding a sweet shifting ride equipped with a Campy Super Record drivetrain. All in all, I don't think that the Di2 offers anything that cannot be found with a less expensive cable shift drivetrain that is tuned right. The only advantage that I can find with it is in bling value, which, unlike my cousin, is not an issue for me.
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