Erging (Indoor Rowing) Update

Oh Larry, that was great. Thanks so much for posting it. I am addicted to
that contraption as is my husband now. I can do 7000 meters on level 3.5 at
about a 2:27-2:40 pace per 2000 meters (with short rests between sets). I
keep telling him I want one for home use and he keeps saying we don't have
the $900. So, we continue to go to the PU Rec Center to use them, and
actually it is quite fun sweating with all the other exercisers (rowers,
treadmillers, weight lifters, bikers, etc.).

Marianne

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A couple of months ago, I wrote about "erging" as cross training for
swimming:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.swimming/msg/8f3037a2f6feb91f?hl=en&

Anyway, just did my first competition. A brief narrative (along with
video clip, which requires Explorer browser and Windows Media Player)
is posted here -->

http://weisenthal.org/swimming/beach_sprints.html

- Larry W

Ooops. I meant that pace per 500m for a total distance of 2000 meters per
interval!

Marianne

"MSE" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:ofbGf.752171$x96.142356@attbi_s72...

Quoted message said:

Oh Larry, that was great. Thanks so much for posting it. I am addicted to
that contraption as is my husband now. I can do 7000 meters on level 3.5
at about a 2:27-2:40 pace per 2000 meters (with short rests between sets).
I keep telling him I want one for home use and he keeps saying we don't
have the $900. So, we continue to go to the PU Rec Center to use them, and
actually it is quite fun sweating with all the other exercisers (rowers,
treadmillers, weight lifters, bikers, etc.).

Marianne

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A couple of months ago, I wrote about "erging" as cross training for
swimming:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.swimming/msg/8f3037a2f6feb91f?hl=en&

Anyway, just did my first competition. A brief narrative (along with
video clip, which requires Explorer browser and Windows Media Player)
is posted here -->

http://weisenthal.org/swimming/beach_sprints.html

- Larry W

oops, my bad. I accidentally clicked "rec.sport.swimming" rather than
"rowing." I saw this posting thinking that I was in the rowing site,
and I did a post to "Training zones, Heart-rate, Advice, and Humbug."
I am rowing coach, and I believe in using swimming as a compliment to
rowing. I guess that your work on erging for swimmers would also
support the other direction. As far as the $900 dollars, you should
look around right now for a good deal. There are many indoor regatta's
going on right now. They often sell the new ergs after the regatta at
a slightly lower price, and you don't have to pay for shipping.

Bob Eldridge

I would like to get a Concept II as this was strongly recommended to me by a
PU rowing coach among others, but I think the only place to get the newest
model is from their Internet site. It would come to $885 with the shipping.

"oarsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

oops, my bad. I accidentally clicked "rec.sport.swimming" rather than
"rowing." I saw this posting thinking that I was in the rowing site,
and I did a post to "Training zones, Heart-rate, Advice, and Humbug."
I am rowing coach, and I believe in using swimming as a compliment to
rowing. I guess that your work on erging for swimmers would also
support the other direction. As far as the $900 dollars, you should
look around right now for a good deal. There are many indoor regatta's
going on right now. They often sell the new ergs after the regatta at
a slightly lower price, and you don't have to pay for shipping.

Bob Eldridge

No, I don't own any Concept II stock. But, yes, I find myself on a
mission to promote the value of this sport for swimmers.

I don't know of any studies; so all I have to go on is anecdotal
information.

I first heard of this many years back in a private e-mail from Dave
Salo, who related to me that he'd had a swimmer suffer an injury which
precluded training, so she took up rowing for some time and, upon
return to the pool, hadn't lost a thing (and had actually improved to
backstroke to what shortly became national class levels).

One of my kids (a distance swimmer) has been fighting a bad shoulder
(downsloping acromion with spur) for many years. To make it through her
sophomore year in college, she cut her training mileage by 1/3 and
replaced it with Concept II erging. She was 11th in the high point
standings at her conference meet and swam right on or below her
previous best times (alas, had surgery right before school started this
year and is having a very prolonged recovery period).

And then there's me. Getting ready for my recent erg (indoor rowing)
competition, I quit swimming entirely for a whole month. Today I went
back in the pool and I swam faster and better than I had been doing
before I quit. It was really effortless; I just felt so strong in the
water. Then, to top it off, I took a 3.5 mile run on a treadmill right
after getting out of the water (I'd done a dozen hundreds and a 50). I
haven't done any running at all in months (save for my Christmas Day
run). So I set the speed at a 7.5 minutes per mile pace to start, then
quickly cut it to first 7:00 and then 6:40 and then 6:30. Did the last
half mile at 6:00. It was easy, and I was utterly shocked (based on
expectations from previous periods where I'd allowed myself to become
running deconditioned).

I understand the swimming, as the rowing has greatly strengthened my
forearm "catch" muscles, core body muscles, push of the wall
quadriceps, biceps freestyle and pectoralis muscles. But I can't
explain the cross training effect for running, save for probably being
in the best cardiovascular condition I've been in in years (I've never
done any workouts in any sport which consistently leave me as totally
spent as my sessions on that upper + lower body machine) and the fact
that swapping swimming for rowing dropped my weight from high 160s to
159. Certainly carrying less weight explains some of the running ease.
But there is something about this which is more than I currently
understand. But, boy is it cool.

- Larry W

Started researching the science of this. Rowing obviously works the
biceps, but what about the lats (most important muscles for
conventional freestyle)? Found the following on a weight training
site:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/issa76.htm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does a rowing exercise work the lats?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It all depends on the position of the arms during the movement. Keeping the elbows close to the side of the body during the movement creates arm extension. If you remember that extension is a prime action of the latissimus dorsi, you will understand that indeed doing the exercise in this fashion does work the lats very well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Doing the exercise with the elbows high, or arms perpendicular to the body, reduces the leverage of the lats. This type of motion is called horizontal arm abduction. This is not a prime action of the lats. It is very much a prime action of the rear deltoids, teres minor and infraspinatus (see illustration) (2). Doing a rowing exercise in this fashion trains the rear deltoids, teres minor and infraspinatus very well. It is not a very effective way to train the lats.

-- to be continued ... whether you like it or not 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-- to be continued ... whether you like it or not 🙂 <<

Now, the reason I think I'm on to something is this.

I know that most of us are here because we believe in the old
expression "swim or die." I certainly feel that away. Particularly
everytime I talk to my 92 y.o. father. But here's the thing: Most of
us don't own pools. For some people, it's easy to get to whereever
they swim. For others, not so easy. And I suspect that most of us
want to get better, but we can't train as much as we might like,
because of the pool access problem.

Now, these machines cost less than $900 brand new and delivered. They
are widely available in colleges and health clubs (there are online
listings of clubs which have the machines, down to how many and what
models. Suffice it to say that they are everywhere, and the next time
I travel and have the choice between a 32 foot hotel pool and an erg
machine, I'll go with the latter. The technology is cool, and using
the technology (along with the online world rankings) is tremendously
motivating. And I think it is absolutely the most efficient form of
exercise I've ever tried, in terms of what you get out of it as a
function of the time you put in. And it's fun. And a whole lot of it
is directly applicable to swimming and makes for a stronger swimmer,
particularly if one intentionally uses rowing motions which optimally
work the swimming muscles.

Another thing about rowing. Typical stroke cadences range between 20
and 34. This is right in the ballpark of the stroke cycle of a
complete arm movement in swimming. So the ratio of work to rest and
the timing of work to rest is pretty comparable.

By the way, I sent my account of my recent competition to a friend who
lives way out in the country and heats with wood, and this was his
reply:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

At 01:06 AM 2/6/2006 EST said:

... my first indoor rowing ("erging"😉 competition ...It is wonderful cross

training ..(Men 55-59... weighed in that morning at 159 pounds/72.3
Kg).

Quoted message said:

If I remember correctly from physics, an "erg" is the CGS metric unit
of
energy/work that is commonly associated with small distances measured
in
centimeters, and small masses measured in grams.

Around here we choose to use the "joule" of the MKS sysem, where
distance
are measured in meters, and masses are measure in kilograms.

So if you want to do some "jouling", come vist any time. You are free
to
shovel kilograms of snow, haul cubic meters of wood, dig up hundreds of
square meters of garden soil.

We don't care much about your time, except that the wood must be cut,
carried, piled on truck, hauled, unloaded, split, carried, stacked in
pile
to dry, later carried again to basement, thrown thru basement window,
and
piled again in basement, all in time for the first cold weather of
autumn
(give or take a couple of weeks). Loads of wood are typically in the
1000
Kg class, typically unloaded by a joule of a wife in the 50 to 60 yrs
age
group in the 50Kg weight class.

Jouling with firewood is good cross-training for shoveling manure into
a
truck, hauling manure home, unloading manure into a pile, later
shoveling
manure into a wheelbarrow, wheeling to garden plot, spreading manure
around
garden, spading manure into soil, digging holes, planting potatoes,
hoeing
potatoes weekly, digging potatoes, carrying potatoes into water faucet,
washing potatoes, loading potatoes into sacks, and carrying sacks of
potatoes into basement, all to be completed before the first cold
weather
of autumn (give or take a couple of weeks).

Potatoes are stored in 40-50 Kg sacks for later consumption by a guy in
60-70 year age group in the 90-100 Kg weight class (though eating all
those
potatoes may soon push him into the 100-110 Kg weight class.

<[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No, I don't own any Concept II stock. But, yes, I find myself on a
mission to promote the value of this sport for swimmers.

In an hotel in the Swiss Alps, now (not far from Torino: congrats to
Deneriaz!).

They have a Concept II, and after reading these posts, I couldn't resist to
give it a try.

I found absolutely nothing common with swimming. Using different muscles, or
the same muscles, but in a different way. I simply cannot understand how
rowing on a Concept II could help my swimming or running. That may be even
worse than skiing (which ruins my running performance every year). I
couldn't even get my pulse high... But I may not use the system properly,
this is the first time.

Still curious to read more about it than "anecdotal information"...

-- Olivier

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I couldn't even get my pulse high... <<

Well, this is certainly a technique problem. I assure you, if it's one
thing you'll be able to do, it's to get your pulse as high as it can
get.

You want to set the "drag" (damper) at about 3 (approximates what it's
like in a boat). You want to set the display so that the meters yet to
be rowed is on the top; instantaneous (real time) minutes/seconds per
500 meters is in the middle. Average minutes per 500 meters is on the
bottom.

Now, try this. Set the meters to be rowed at 2000 (the standard
Olympic distance).

Get your feet strapped in securely. Take a deep breath. I'm thinking
that you are younger and fitter than me. When I did a 2000 time trial
each of the last two weekends, I finished in 7:29 each time. This is
holding a 1:52 pace. So try to get yourself going at a pace to keep
your instantaneous and average per 500 time at 1:52. Adjust your
pulling acceleration and/or stroke rate to achieve this. Keep going as
long as you can. If you can keep it up for the whole 2000 (the
distance counts down as you row) and finish in 7:30 or so without any
specific training, then my hat's certainly off to you. But, if you
start to lose it before the end, make your maximum effort to keep it at
1:52 and then, at the point when you lose it, check your pulse. If
this doesn't do it, then take a brief rest and repeat it, trying to
keep it at a 1:42 pace (which was the pace held by Henry Baker, the
other 58 year old in my video clip).

It works lats, biceps, pecs, wrist flexors, abs, and quadriceps...plus,
obviously, your heart.

I'll try and do some more research.

Just curious (as you are so often in exotic locations, e.g. the Virgin
Islands). Where in the world is your hotel?

- Larry W

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I couldn't even get my pulse high... <<

Well, this is certainly a technique/effort problem. I assure you, if
it's one thing you'll be able to do, it's to get your pulse as high as
it can get.

You want to set the "drag" (damper) at about 3 (approximates what it's
like in a boat). You want to set the display so that the meters yet to
be rowed is on the top; instantaneous (real time) minutes/seconds per
500 meters is in the middle. Average minutes per 500 meters is on the
bottom.

Now, try this. Set the meters to be rowed at 2000 (the standard
Olympic distance).

Get your feet strapped in securely. Take a deep breath. I'm thinking
that you are younger and fitter than me. When I did a 2000 time trial
each of the last two weekends, I finished in 7:29 each time. This is
holding a 1:52 pace. So try to get yourself going at a pace to keep
your instantaneous and average per 500 time at 1:52. Adjust your
pulling acceleration and/or stroke rate to achieve this. Keep it going
as long as you can. If you can keep it up for the whole 2000 (the
distance counts down as you row) and finish in 7:30 or so without any
specific training, then my hat's certainly off to you. But, if you
start to lose it before the end, make your maximum effort to keep it at

1:52 and then, at the point when you lose it, check your pulse. If
this doesn't do it, then take a rest and repeat it, trying to
keep it at a 1:42 pace (which was the pace held by Henry Baker, the
other 58 year old in my video clip).

It works lats, biceps, pecs, wrist flexors, abs, and quadriceps...plus,
obviously, your heart. The weight training piece I quoted said that
keeping the elbows closer to the body maxed lat work, while letting
them move away shifted more to posterior deltoids (also used in
swimming).

I'll try and do some more research.

The following is a general review of peer reviewed science of cross
training for running. Still looking for even more pertinent research.

http://www.pfitzinger.com/labreports/crossbenefits.shtml

What I thought was interesting was the beneficial effect on cycling in
highly trained (but sub-elite) runners. I think that rowing/erging is
much more pertinent to swimming than is cycling to running. This adds
some plausibility to my suggestion that a home erg machine could
definitely improve the performance of those without convenient access
to a swimming pool and/or with injuries which limit training volume.

Take Larry's advice on how to set up the rower before starting. My first
time on it, I also thought it was easy, but when I did as he suggested, I
got a completely different feel. It works me hard and my heartrate certainly
gets up there now.

Marianne

"Silver0l" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No, I don't own any Concept II stock. But, yes, I find myself on a
mission to promote the value of this sport for swimmers.

In an hotel in the Swiss Alps, now (not far from Torino: congrats to
Deneriaz!).

They have a Concept II, and after reading these posts, I couldn't resist
to
give it a try.

I found absolutely nothing common with swimming. Using different muscles,
or
the same muscles, but in a different way. I simply cannot understand how
rowing on a Concept II could help my swimming or running. That may be even
worse than skiing (which ruins my running performance every year). I
couldn't even get my pulse high... But I may not use the system properly,
this is the first time.

Still curious to read more about it than "anecdotal information"...

-- Olivier

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:03:23 -0800, [email hidden] (Larry Weisenthal)
wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Jouling with firewood is good cross-training for shoveling manure

Now that's funny 😉.

--Mike (who's heart of hearts wonders if any such good purpose might be
found for breaststroke)

MSE said:

Take Larry's advice on how to set up the rower before starting. My first
time on it, I also thought it was easy, but when I did as he suggested, I
got a completely different feel. It works me hard and my heartrate certainly
gets up there now.

Marianne

Form is important too. Good Fly and Back (in particular) and half decent
rowing all require a high level of lat activation. Not many other
activities require such smooth movement. I like it.

--Mike

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I couldn't even get my pulse high... <<

Well, this is certainly a technique problem. I assure you, if it's one
thing you'll be able to do, it's to get your pulse as high as it can
get.

I forgot to take my pulse, which probably means I was working hard.

Quoted message said:

You want to set the "drag" (damper) at about 3 (approximates what it's
like in a boat). You want to set the display so that the meters yet to
be rowed is on the top; instantaneous (real time) minutes/seconds per
500 meters is in the middle. Average minutes per 500 meters is on the
bottom.

Now, try this. Set the meters to be rowed at 2000 (the standard
Olympic distance).

Get your feet strapped in securely. Take a deep breath. I'm thinking
that you are younger and fitter than me. When I did a 2000 time trial
each of the last two weekends, I finished in 7:29 each time. This is
holding a 1:52 pace. So try to get yourself going at a pace to keep
your instantaneous and average per 500 time at 1:52. Adjust your
pulling acceleration and/or stroke rate to achieve this. Keep going as
long as you can. If you can keep it up for the whole 2000 (the
distance counts down as you row) and finish in 7:30 or so without any
specific training, then my hat's certainly off to you.

I did 7:26.9. I agree with Olivier. It is an excellent cardio workout,
but it doesn't feel like it will help swimming.

Quoted message said:

But, if you
start to lose it before the end, make your maximum effort to keep it at
1:52 and then, at the point when you lose it, check your pulse. If
this doesn't do it, then take a brief rest and repeat it, trying to
keep it at a 1:42 pace (which was the pace held by Henry Baker, the
other 58 year old in my video clip).

It works lats, biceps, pecs, wrist flexors, abs, and quadriceps...plus,
obviously, your heart.

I'll try and do some more research.

Just curious (as you are so often in exotic locations, e.g. the Virgin
Islands). Where in the world is your hotel?

- Larry W

Quoted message said:

From Martin:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I did 7:26.9<<

That's awesome for a first time effort.

Now (if you are curious), go to the following website to see where in
the world your time ranks:

http://www.concept2.com/sranking03/rankings.asp

You can choose to rank yourself according to the entire universe (all
ages, both sexes, both lightweight (under 75 kg) and heavyweight (over
75 kg).

Or you can do it by age group (for international competitions, the
masters/veterans cutoffs are 40-44, 45-49, 50-54, etc.), and by gender,
and by weight category.

You'll note that there are people from all over the world (including
quite a few from Norway). Many have both profiles and pictures posted
(so you get to know the competition).

You can find me easily by searching 55-59 lightweight men and scrolling
down to my time (7:29.2).

- Larry W

P.S. (quoting Martin)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is an excellent cardio workout,

but it doesn't feel like it will help swimming. <<

Consider trying something for 6 weeks (while you are waiting for the
arrival of Spring) ...

You've posted before that you are also working on your weight. So, for
one month, substitute erg workouts for half of your swimming workouts.
Take before and after measurements: weight, AM resting heart rate,
maximum heart rate, time to recovery from maximum. Plus do some sort
of "test set" in swimming (you've already got your test set for
rowing...your sterling 7:26).

Then maybe let us know...I'm predicting you'll be pleasantly surprised.

- Larry W

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

Quoted message said:

From Martin:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I did 7:26.9<<

That's awesome for a first time effort.

Now (if you are curious), go to the following website to see where in
the world your time ranks:

http://www.concept2.com/sranking03/rankings.asp

You can choose to rank yourself according to the entire universe (all
ages, both sexes, both lightweight (under 75 kg) and heavyweight (over
75 kg).

Or you can do it by age group (for international competitions, the
masters/veterans cutoffs are 40-44, 45-49, 50-54, etc.), and by gender,
and by weight category.

You'll note that there are people from all over the world (including
quite a few from Norway). Many have both profiles and pictures posted
(so you get to know the competition).

You can find me easily by searching 55-59 lightweight men and scrolling
down to my time (7:29.2).

I tied with Doug Smith (no relation) at 53rd in the 55-59 men heavyweight.

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

P.S. (quoting Martin)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is an excellent cardio workout,

but it doesn't feel like it will help swimming. <<

Consider trying something for 6 weeks (while you are waiting for the
arrival of Spring) ...

You've posted before that you are also working on your weight. So, for
one month, substitute erg workouts for half of your swimming workouts.
Take before and after measurements: weight, AM resting heart rate,
maximum heart rate, time to recovery from maximum. Plus do some sort
of "test set" in swimming (you've already got your test set for
rowing...your sterling 7:26).

Then maybe let us know...I'm predicting you'll be pleasantly surprised.

I have developed an inflamation in one heel, so I have to give up
aerobics classes for awhile. I plan to add more swimming, but I will add
rowing, too. The problem is there is only one machine at one club, and
I think the machines at the other club are a different brand. That's ok,
I guess, but the data won't be the same.