Facing head tubes and local bike shop

Quoted message said:

I guess the Trek, Giant, Specialized, Cannondale, Litespeed, and Colnago bikes they sell all come
with faced head tubes, and bottom bracket shells, and honed seat tubes.

If i recall right Colnago's don't come with faced tubes, very odd that a Colnago dealer hasn't got
the rigth tools.

"Russell Seaton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just a story.

I have a new aluminum frame. And carbon fork. And headset. So after reading all the stories on
this forum about making sure the frame head tube is parallel, I decided to take the frame to my
local bike shop and have the head tube faced. And the headset race pounded onto the carbon fork.
And the headset cups installed.

I went down to my favorite bike shop in my metro area of about 400,000 people. There are about 10
or so bike shops in town. But I've always perceived this one as the higher end of all the shops.
This one sells Trek and Giant and Specialized and Litespeed and Colnago. And used to carry
Cannondale. They have two shops in town. I've dealt with them before and they always seemed to
know what they were doing.

I went to the counter guy and asked if they could "face the head tube". He lead me over to the
mechanic area and told the mechanic what I had said. The mechanic then explained to the counter
guy what I meant when I said "face the head tube". The mechanic said they did not do that at their
store, or their other store. He said there is a buy in town they refer this kind of business to. I
asked if this was the "local frame builder guy". And they said yes. So they took my name and
number down and said they would pass it on to the "local frame builder guy".

I guess I could try all of the other local bike shops until I find one that has the tools for
facing the head tube. And bottom bracket shell. But I'm curious to meet the local frame builder
guy so I'll do it this way. I did not even bother asking if the bike shop could flex hone the
inside of the seat tube. I'll ask the local frame builder guy for this service.

The local bike shop did pound the headset race onto the fork for free. And I asked if they would
sell me a seat tube/seatpost clamp in
31.8mm. But they said they did not have this and would have to special order it. I didn't bother
telling them it is a very common item and Nashbar has it for $3.99. I'll ask the local
frame builder guy if he has one in stock.

I still like this local bike shop. But I'm just surprised they did not offer a seemingly common
service like facing the head tube. Or have the tools to do it. I guess the Trek, Giant,
Specialized, Cannondale, Litespeed, and Colnago bikes they sell all come with faced head tubes,
and bottom bracket shells, and honed seat tubes. And I guess all of the bike shops which advertise
on this rec tech forum and say they do simple things like facing the head tube on frames must be
part of 1% of 1% of bike shops which offer full services.

russel-<< This one sells Trek and Giant and Specialized and Litespeed and Colnago. >><BR><BR> << He
lead me over to the mechanic area and told the mechanic what I had said. The mechanic then explained
to the counter guy what I meant when I said "face the head tube". The mechanic said they did not do
that at their store, or their other store >><BR><BR>

Too bad because the framesets mentioned really need to be prepped...

I cannot believe a decent bike shop cannot dop this. But then again, there are only two or three
shops in Boulder that do this and that can build wheels...

Russell<< And I asked if they would sell me a seat tube/seatpost clamp in
31.8mm. But they said they did not have this and would have to special order it. I didn't bother
telling them it is a very common item and Nashbar has it for $3.99. >><BR><BR>

Bike shops don't go out of business, they commit suicide. They are often populated by lazy and
inept sales people and lazy and inept mechanics. We hear about this all the time, see shoddy work
all the time.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(32)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

ronald-<< If i recall right Colnago's don't come with faced tubes, very odd that a Colnago dealer
hasn't got the rigth tools. >><BR><BR>

And ya GOTTA prep these puppys, particularly the C-40.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[email hidden] (Russell Seaton) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Just a story.

I have a new aluminum frame. And carbon fork. And headset. So after reading all the stories on
this forum about making sure the frame head tube is parallel, I decided to take the frame to my
local bike shop and have the head tube faced. And the headset race pounded onto the carbon fork.
And the headset cups installed.

I went down to my favorite bike shop in my metro area of about 400,000 people. There are about 10
or so bike shops in town. But I've always perceived this one as the higher end of all the shops.

<snip>

"Higher end" is not, in my opinion, a reliable indicator of competence. There's a very high end shop
in Brooklyn, for instance, that I go into just to view the latest gewgaws. From what I've seen and
heard, their floorroom sales people and mechanics are shockingly ignorant.

Quoted message said:

I still like this local bike shop. But I'm just surprised they did not offer a seemingly common
service like facing the head tube. Or have the tools to do it. I guess the Trek, Giant,
Specialized, Cannondale, Litespeed, and Colnago bikes they sell all come with faced head tubes,
and bottom bracket shells, and honed seat tubes. And I guess all of the bike shops which advertise
on this rec tech forum and say they do simple things like facing the head tube on frames must be
part of 1% of 1% of bike shops which offer full services.

Rarely does a domestic Trek require headtube facing, but rarely is different from saying never.
Imported high-end bikes *often* require facing, especially those with really fancy paint jobs (the
ones where facing is likely to chip away paint... funny how that works).

In general, it's preferable to have the shop that sold you the frame do the facing, so you don't
have finger pointing if something's not quite right. Especially since it's the facing work that
could possibly damage paint in the headtube area. There are also issues dealing with weld intrusions
on the inside of the head tube... sometimes you see really ugly stuff that shouldn't have left the
factory that way.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

I hear ya, man. Looks like I also won't be getting any facing done locally.

I recently started the thread asking about when it is necessary to have re-facing done. The
consensus answer was that I should have the faces on my frame checked (since I just acquired it),
but, after that, I wouldn't have to worry about it. Went back to the LBS to request this, and they
flat out refused.

They said they've been in business for 31 years selling both low and high-end frames and they
haven't touched their facing tool in over 10 years (unless they were purposely shortening the bb).
Said they've never seen a frame yet that wasn't good enough to just install the parts, and that no
legitimate bike maker out there (big or small) sends stuff out that isn't high precision.

Since they wouldn't check the facing, I inquired about a check for general integrity and
alignment. He asked me if I had ridden it, I said yes, about 100 miles since I got it (used, it's
an '89 Bridgestone) in June. He asked me if there were any problems and I said none that I could
detect, but I don't have that much experience, so I might not know (I've ridden thousands of miles
in the last 10 years, but only on two different bikes). He said I'd definitely know it if
something was wrong, so if it rode OK, just send it out to be re-finished, install the group, and
quit worrying about it.

So, basically, he's telling me that there is no point to ANY frame prep. Bear in mind, here, I
wasn't asking for any feebies. I was willing to pay. When I told him about all that I've read about
frame prep in this group and that a number of experts say that frame prep is important and that many
brand new frames do require prep at the shop, he said "well, that's what you get when you get your
info on an internet news group-- a big bunch of bs."

Since his snippy tone was making it very clear that I was wasting his time, I left.

Just before all this, I called Spectrum about powdercoating, and they said they did not do frame
prep at all, even after finishing. They said they mask and plug everything and said there is
absolutely no need to do anything after finishing. All the faces will be clean, all threads will be
clear and ready to go. Just put the group on it and ride.

So, my LBS and a major bike finisher are saying in no uncertain terms that prep is NOT necessary. On
the other hand, a number of experts here say it IS necessary.

I have no vested interest in frame prep and I'm not rich, so I don't want to pay for anything I
don't really need. But if I go to the trouble and expense of a re-finish, I don't want to chince out
on it and get poor results. I just want to do what's right, but there does not seem to be a clear
consensus on what "right" is (at least among the people I have interacted with so far).

Jim Rogers

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

russel-<< This one sells Trek and Giant and Specialized and Litespeed and Colnago. >><BR><BR> <<
He lead me over to the mechanic area and told the mechanic what I had said. The mechanic then
explained to the counter guy what I meant when I said "face the head tube". The mechanic said they
did not do that at their store, or their other store >><BR><BR>

Too bad because the framesets mentioned really need to be prepped...

I cannot believe a decent bike shop cannot dop this. But then again, there are only two or three
shops in Boulder that do this and that can build wheels...

I can't believe it either, but what I really can't believe is that frames costing over $1000 come
this way (unfinished) from the factory. That's outrageous...

Quoted message said:

Russell<< And I asked if they would sell me a seat tube/seatpost clamp in
31.8mm. But they said they did not have this and would have to special order it. I didn't bother
telling them it is a very common item and Nashbar has it for $3.99. >><BR><BR>

Bike shops don't go out of business, they commit suicide. They are often populated by lazy and
inept sales people and lazy and inept mechanics. We hear about this all the time, see shoddy work
all the time.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the norm. However, bike shops are not unique in this. It's like auto
repair -- we hear all kinds of stories about dishonest mechanics, when in fact most of them are just
flailing around -- incompetent.

Matt O.

Follow up. I called another shop in town. The one I perceive to be the next highest quality shop in
town. This bike shop sells Schwinn, Raleigh, and Cannondale bikes. I asked if they providded the
service of facing the head tube on a frame. The person said they did not have these tools. I asked
if he knew of any shops in town which did this service. He said there were two guys in town they
referred this kind of business to. Then he mentioned two "local frame builder guys". One of the
names was the same as the other shop had mentioned. I'm somewhat anxious to meet these legendary
local frame builder guys. They must be mighty busy prepping all of the frames sold in a metro area
of about 400,000 people.

irene-<< They said they've been in business for 31 years selling both low and high-end frames and
they haven't touched their facing tool in over 10 years (unless they were purposely shortening the
bb). Said they've never seen a frame yet that wasn't good enough to just install the parts, and that
no legitimate bike maker out there (big or small) sends stuff out that isn't high precision.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

They are idiots and should not see year 32...

irene-<< When I told him about all that I've read about frame prep in this group and that a number
of experts say that frame prep is important and that many brand new frames do require prep at the
shop, he said "well, that's what you get when you get your info on an internet news group-- a big
bunch of bs." >><BR><BR>

See my previous post about lazy and inept. This kind of [censored] does not serve the cycling public well.
It does not put people on reliable bicycles and keep them there.

irene-<< So, my LBS and a major bike finisher are saying in no uncertain terms that prep is NOT
necessary. On the other hand, a number of experts here say it IS necessary. >><BR><BR>

Making the surfaces that have components against them, that use ball bearings(headsets and bottom
brakets) is basic..

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

<< They said they've been in business for 31 years selling both low and high-end frames and they
haven't touched their facing tool in over 10 years (unless they were purposely shortening the bb).
Said they've never seen a frame yet that wasn't good enough to just install the parts, and that no
legitimate bike maker out there (big or small) sends stuff out that isn't high precision. >>

I have learned the hard way that even a "high-end" new frame supposedly "prepped at the factory"
should be faced before installing the headset. It sounds like your LBS is run by a bunch of arrogant
a-holes (not uncommon in this or any other business). It seems to me that a bike shop should be
willing to run a facing tool on any frame if the customer requests it and PAYS them to do so,
whether they think it needs it or not. That's called customer service. Look for a new LBS.

[email hidden] (Gary Young) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Russell Seaton) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Just a story.

I have a new aluminum frame. And carbon fork. And headset. So after reading all the stories on
this forum about making sure the frame head tube is parallel, I decided to take the frame to my
local bike shop and have the head tube faced. And the headset race pounded onto the carbon fork.
And the headset cups installed.

I went down to my favorite bike shop in my metro area of about 400,000 people. There are about
10 or so bike shops in town. But I've always perceived this one as the higher end of all the
shops.

<snip>

"Higher end" is not, in my opinion, a reliable indicator of competence. There's a very high end
shop in Brooklyn, for instance, that I go into just to view the latest gewgaws. From what I've
seen and heard, their floorroom sales people and mechanics are shockingly ignorant.

*Definitely* not. For many years (and still, for all I know) one of the 2 or 3 best mechanics in
Portland, Oregon worked at a local shop that sold almost no race kit or fancy MTB stuff. They cater
to the neighborhood and to commuters. And if you wanted a frame prepped properly or a custom bit of
machining, you'd go to Coventry Cycles and they'd do it and charge a fair price. In fact, generally
less than would really be fair. I miss having 'em nearby, but at least I've finally found a "local"
(less than an hour's drive) shop here in NH that exhibits similar competence (Peter White's shop).

In contrast I've seen a nubmer of supposedly high-zoot shops with lots of expensive racing bikes on
their floor that I woluldn't let near my grocery bike. Of course most of the people who buy those
bikes don't know any more than the mechanics or sales staff in the shops that sell them.

Alex Merz

Quoted message said:

I have learned the hard way that even a "high-end" new frame supposedly "prepped at the factory"
should be faced before installing the headset. It sounds like your LBS is run by a bunch of
arrogant a-holes (not uncommon in this or any other business). It seems to me that a bike shop
should be willing to run a facing tool on any frame if the customer requests it and PAYS them to
do so, whether they think it needs it or not. That's called customer service. Look for a new LBS.

But my problem is finding a local bike shop that even has the facing tools and offers the service. I
haven't been able to get to the point of asking how much the service costs because no bike shop in
town has the tools to perform the service. I just called my third shop in town, the Bianchi dealer,
and he does not have facing tools either. I'm in a metro area of about 400,000 people with about 10
different bike shops.

More disappointment. I thought I had found a shop to face the head tube. I even left the frame
with them overnight. But apparently they don't have the right tool to face an aluminum frame's 1
inch head tube. So I'm still looking for a shop in my area to face the head tube. They also did
not have a 31.8 mm clamp for the seat tube. They did have the tools to hone the inside of the seat
tube though.

I'm beginning to wonder if its really worth the aggravation of finding a shop to face the head tube
or if its best just to build the frame up and ride it. And order the seat tube clamp from Nashbar
for $3.99 plus $5 shipping. Might be a whole lot cheaper and faster than trying to find it at a
local bike shop.

[email hidden] (Mike Krueger) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

<< ...no bike shop in town has the tools to perform the service. I just called my third shop in
town, the Bianchi dealer, and he does not have facing tools either. I'm in a metro area of about
400,000 people with about 10 different bike shops. >>

I find that astonishing. I live in a small NJ community of about 20,000 people, and even my LBS
who sells kiddie tricycles for a living has a full set of Campy frame tools. If you post the name
of the city where you live, perhaps someone else in the newsgroup can recommend a decent shop.

The trails and tribulations of trying to get a bike shop to actually DO something
mechanical-something as simple as a headtube and BB face-job. AGAIN, I apologize for the horrible
state of bike shops in this country. It seems that all one needs nowadays is a big check-book to buy
a lot of expensive road bikes, pay the bills on occassion, and suddenly its a "Pro-Shop". My
thoughts are that this approach makes for a good RETAILER, but a lousy service center. As far as I'm
concerned, a pro shop must, at a minimum, build quaity wheels, be able to do a complete machining of
a frame, alignment, basic frame modifications like add a simple braze-on, replace a dropout
etc...The best shops I found were not the greatest retail merchandisers because the space that could
have had a waterfall display of Pearl Izumi clothing had an alignment table and a Campy tool kit
installed, nobody could eat at the counter because there was a beat-up truing stand with a
half-finished wheel on it, the walls are covered in racing paraphenalia and the drawers are
overloaded with every kind of widget know. The lighting is probabally sub-optimal, the isles crowded
and the bikes are hanging anyplace physically large enough. The carpets aren't dirty because there
probabally aren't any. The best pro-shops have passion and character and most likely the biggest
character is att he workbench, not the cash register. When you find a shop like this, say AMEN and
do everything you can to help him stay in business because the bike companies would much rather have
fancy retailers sell the bikes than the old pro-shop.