Factory/machine built wheels

John Sergeant said:

How much of a "factory" or "machine-built" wheel is made by a machine, how is this done and how
much is touched by human hands?

Think of it as you would a sewing machine that requires human interaction while the sewing is done
entirely by the machine, the fabric being guided by hand. The same is essentially what a wheel
lacing machine does. There are two machines, a spoke lacing machine and a tensioning and truing
machine. The latter operates without human intervention.

The tensioning and truing machine is the culprit in the so-called machine built wheels. The
tighter the spokes are made the dumber the machine gets, as adjustments begins to enter spoke
twist magnitude. Ultimately the machine turns spoke nipples with no thread motion at all, only
spoke twist. To avoid arriving at this time wasting tension, the process is often stopped at
lower tension.

I have talked to the Dutch companies BMD and Holland Mechanics, the major manufacturers of wheel
building machines. Neither was willing to discuss a solution to this and stress relieving
problems because they can't imagine anyone understanding anything that they don't know about
wheel truing machines.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have talked to the Dutch companies BMD and Holland

Mechanics, the

Quoted message said:

major manufacturers of wheel building machines. Neither

was willing

Quoted message said:

to discuss a solution to this and stress relieving

problems because

Quoted message said:

they can't imagine anyone understanding anything that they

don't know

Quoted message said:

about wheel truing machines.

Did you really expect to be greeted with open arms? That would be like admitting they'd been doing
it wrong all these years. I'd expect to be stonewalled too.

Matt O.

Quoted message said:

Just out of curiosity...

How much of a "factory" or "machine-built" wheel is made by a machine, how is this done and how
much is touched by human hands?

Either Cycle Sport or ProCycling (can't remember which) had an article in a recent issue about
Mavic's wheelbuilding operation, complete with pictures. I meant to write up a summary and ask some
questions here based on that article, but never got around to it.

The article might be of interest to those engaged in the cartridge vs. cup-and-cone debate:
Mavic favors cartridge bearings because they cut down on manufacturing time. A cone has to be
threaded onto the axle and then adjusted. Mavic's cartridge bearings are pressed into the hub in
a single step.

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just out of curiosity...

How much of a "factory" or "machine-built" wheel is made by a machine, how is this done and how
much is touched by human hands?

In the common setup, the hub is loaded with spokes by hand, an operator feeds each spoke to the rim
and the nipple is automatically fed and threaded onto it. The built wheel is tensioned and trued on
an automatic fixture and usually finished by hand. There's no reason these wheels could not be every
bit as good as mine but for the lack of lubrication, time and attention and the lack of stress
relief and to some extent deficient materials. None of those are inherent to a machine-trued wheel,
as a human operator is already doing a lot of the work. Time literally is money, however, and since
these wheels are saleable without any care there's no impetus to change.

There are only a few of manufacturers of automated wheelbuilding equipment in the world, Holland
Mechanics being well known here.

Interestingly, when I was young, mass-produced bicycle wheels were frequently built by the blind ( I
grew up near a school for the blind). Since much better opportunities are available to the blind
today, this job is now given over to the mentally deficient. In the local case, the operator is paid
to take care of the laborers for the day! Any work they produce is just gravy on top of that!

And just to put all that in perspective, the typical wheel they produce sells to distributors for
about $9 in steel, $13 in aluminum. The sort of thing r.b.t. readers ride (OK, exceptions, you know
who you are) is so small as to be nearly unnoticeable in the prebuilt-wheel market which is geared
to a high-volume low quality product.

--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

Better manufacturers may build the wheel on a machine, to save time over the more tedious hand
lacing, but they will always tension, true and stress the wheels by hand.

May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have talked to the Dutch companies BMD and Holland Mechanics, the major manufacturers of wheel
building machines. Neither was willing to discuss a solution to this and stress relieving problems
because they can't imagine anyone understanding anything that they don't know about wheel truing
machines.

If I was a well known company that was the leader in the industry, I wouldn't want to talk to anyone
about _technical_ matters - regardless of who they were. I would make an exception, though, if the
person I was talking to had signed a confidentiality waiver.

The benefit/risk ratio is diminishingly small for the company involved to be discussing these issues
with anyone (I imagine this is why Jobst sees so much "resistance" from the industry). From the mfr
perspective, I see the potential for a lawsuit - and the (US) courts have indeed seen them.

I wouldn't look at it as being snubbed by a bunch of "idiots" - I would look at this situation as a
company looking out (rightly so) for its best business interests. Next time you would like to
discuss something technical with them, Jobst, I would suggest mentioning that you would be willing
to sign a confidentiality waiver.

If you were to sign that document, I imagine you might be treated differently.

The company that I work for strictly forbids technically related/"idea" discussions with anyone
until the confidentiality waiver/NDA's (if it proceeds that far) are taken care of.

--
==================
Kraig Willett www.biketechreview.com
==================

Kraig Willett said:

Quoted message said:

I have talked to the Dutch companies BMD and Holland Mechanics, the major manufacturers of wheel
building machines. Neither was willing to discuss a solution to this and stress relieving
problems because they can't imagine anyone understanding anything that they don't know about
wheel truing machines.

Quoted message said:

If I was a well known company that was the leader in the industry, I wouldn't want to talk to
anyone about _technical_ matters - regardless of who they were. I would make an exception, though,
if the person I was talking to had signed a confidentiality waiver.

Quoted message said:

The benefit/risk ratio is diminishingly small for the company involved to be discussing these
issues with anyone (I imagine this is why Jobst sees so much "resistance" from the industry).
From the mfr perspective, I see the potential for a lawsuit - and the (US) courts have indeed
seen them.

That is a scenario I have met with when talking to Shimano whose response was different than that of
the spoking machine people who, even though they claim to have read my book, did not understand
stress relieving and therefore did not understand how to incorporate it into their tensioning
machine. It's not that they didn't talk about it but rather that their lack of understanding became
apparent. Spoke twist, their main enemy, is easily solved but talking about it brought out such a
strong defense of the superiority of their machine that the concept went right by them.

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't look at it as being snubbed by a bunch of "idiots" - I would look at this situation as
a company looking out (rightly so) for its best business interests. Next time you would like to
discuss something technical with them, Jobst, I would suggest mentioning that you would be willing
to sign a confidentiality waiver.

The tone makes the melody and the tome was not intelligent discussion.

Quoted message said:

If you were to sign that document, I imagine you might be treated differently.

That was not their concern. The owner and chief engineer of BMD, who came from Holland Mechanics,
did not seem even slightly interested in having me sign a non-disclosure agreement (NDA). He didn't
want to know because it was something he didn't understand.

Quoted message said:

The company that I work for strictly forbids technically related/"idea" discussions with anyone
until the confidentiality waiver/NDA's (if it proceeds that far) are taken care of.

So do they all. It is the same at Hewlett Packard and after first contact with a purveyor of an
interesting technical concept, it is evaluated and an NDA is signed. I have been in on these
many times.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

Thanks for the clarification, Jobst.

The additional details of the conversation help to put it in context.

--
==================
Kraig Willett www.biketechreview.com
==================

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Kraig Willett said:

Quoted message said:

I have talked to the Dutch companies BMD and Holland Mechanics, the major manufacturers of
wheel building machines. Neither was willing to discuss a solution to this and stress relieving
problems because they can't imagine anyone understanding anything that they don't know about
wheel truing machines.

Quoted message said:

If I was a well known company that was the leader in the industry, I wouldn't want to talk to
anyone about _technical_ matters - regardless of who they were. I would make an exception,
though, if the person I was talking to had signed a confidentiality waiver.

Quoted message said:

The benefit/risk ratio is diminishingly small for the company involved to be discussing these
issues with anyone (I imagine this is why Jobst sees so much "resistance" from the industry).
From the mfr perspective, I see the potential for a lawsuit - and the (US) courts have indeed
seen them.

That is a scenario I have met with when talking to Shimano whose response was different than that
of the spoking machine people who, even though they claim to have read my book, did not understand
stress relieving and therefore did not understand how to incorporate it into their tensioning
machine. It's not that they didn't talk about it but rather that their lack of understanding
became apparent. Spoke twist, their main enemy, is easily solved but talking about it brought out
such a strong defense of the superiority of their machine that the concept went right by them.

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't look at it as being snubbed by a bunch of "idiots" - I would look at this situation
as a company looking out (rightly so) for its best business interests. Next time you would like
to discuss something technical with them, Jobst, I would suggest mentioning that you would be
willing to sign a confidentiality waiver.

The tone makes the melody and the tome was not intelligent discussion.

Quoted message said:

If you were to sign that document, I imagine you might be treated differently.

That was not their concern. The owner and chief engineer of BMD, who came from Holland Mechanics,
did not seem even slightly interested in having me sign a non-disclosure agreement (NDA). He
didn't want to know because it was something he didn't understand.

Quoted message said:

The company that I work for strictly forbids technically related/"idea" discussions with anyone
until the confidentiality waiver/NDA's (if it proceeds that far) are taken care of.

So do they all. It is the same at Hewlett Packard and after first contact with a purveyor of an
interesting technical concept, it is evaluated and an NDA is signed. I have been in on these
many times.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

The need for stress relief is largly a myth no matter who wrote the book. "In the book" doesn't
make it true.

John-<< How much of a "factory" or "machine-built" wheel is made by a machine, how is this done and
how much is touched by human hands?

The only time a human touches most machine built wheels is to put them in the box.

But machine built wheels can be good wheels if a good wheelbuilder tensions, trues, rounds, dishes
and stress relieves them.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Michael

Pearlman) said:

The need for stress relief is largly a myth no matter who wrote the book. "In the book" doesn't
make it true.

Ah, yes. You're welcome to keep replacing broken spokes- no need for you to stress relieve your
wheels. I see that you remain an unrepenitant idiot, fresh off your triumphal bleating about how
badly you were done over by a mail order company who shall remain nameless.

Personally, though, I follow the stress relieving procedures and haven't replaced a spoke in tens of
thousands of miles. I'd rather ride my bike than fix it.

(Qui si parla Campagnolo) said:

But machine built wheels can be good wheels if a good wheelbuilder tensions, trues, rounds, dishes
and stress relieves them.

Wouldn't that same good wheelbuilder spend at best an extra 20 or 25% more time if he did them from
scratch, especially with a form of electric screwdriver to get the nipples to approximately right?

Jasper

Quoted message said:

(Qui si parla Campagnolo) said:

But machine built wheels can be good wheels if a good wheelbuilder

tensions,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trues, rounds, dishes and stress relieves them.

"Jasper Janssen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wouldn't that same good wheelbuilder spend at best an extra 20 or 25% more time if he did them
from scratch, especially with a form of electric screwdriver to get the nipples to
approximately right?

I can just imagine a factory manager wrangling with that problem - should I get 25% more output from
the same resources . . . or not?

You've got to be kidding

--
Andrew Muzi yellowjersey.orgyellowjersey.orgOpen ↗ Open every day since 1 April 1971

Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Michael

Pearlman) said:

The need for stress relief is largly a myth no matter who wrote the book. "In the book" doesn't
make it true.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Personally, though, I follow the stress relieving procedures and haven't replaced a spoke in tens
of thousands of miles. I'd rather ride my bike than fix it.

Same here. I've built my own wheels for many years. Before I started using the methods detailed in
Jobst's book, I broke many spokes. After, I think I've broken one spoke in ten years. I've also
rebuilt wheels, reusing the same spokes per his instructions without issue.

Jeff

A Muzi said:

"Jasper Janssen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wouldn't that same good wheelbuilder spend at best an extra 20 or 25% more time if he did them
from scratch, especially with a form of electric screwdriver to get the nipples to
approximately right?

I can just imagine a factory manager wrangling with that problem - should I get 25% more output
from the same resources . . . or not?

Those machiens aren't exactly un-resources..

Jasper

A Muzi said:

Interestingly, when I was young, mass-produced bicycle wheels were frequently built by the blind (
I grew up near a school for the blind). Since much better opportunities are available to the blind
today, this job is now given over to the mentally deficient. In the local case, the operator is
paid to take care of the laborers for the day! Any work they produce is just gravy on top of that!

When I was teenager I had a part time job lacing wheels at home, I used to do 50 a week and get paid
20p per wheel, used to be able to lace 5 or 6 n hour.

Thats was a decent wage for a teen ager back then.

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

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