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Fat slicks for all-purpose riding

Started by Mike Mullen · · Last activity · 16 posts · 1,362 views

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Cycling Equipment
Published
9 September 2003
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11 September 2003
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Mike Mullen
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  1. This is my first post to this newsgroup and I thought I would share my experience over the last 10
    years with fat, treadless tires.

    I've spent a bit of time over the last couple of weeks looking for replacements for my Avocet
    FasGrip tires I have mounted on a Trek 7000 mountain bike. The tires are 16 x 1.9 front and rear and
    mounted on Matrix SingleTrak rims that measure 24mm at the widest portion. The tires are rated 40-85
    lbs. but I have run them as low as 35 lbs. without rim damage on tricky, loose trails and have run
    them on the road as high as 90 lbs. for extended distances on pavement. I weigh about 200 lbs.

    I wondered what has changed since I bought these tires over a decade ago. (Yes, it's true, I haven't
    been riding a lot in the last six years or so). So I've read a lot of old Usenet postings on the
    subject of slicks and that's what prompted me to write this post. I feel like a lot of people are
    prejudiced against slicks because it doesn't seem intuitive that they should work very well under a
    wide range of conditions. My experience is that a slick works amazingly well under all sorts of
    conditions (with a few limitations) but only if the tire is plenty wide. A lot of people try slicks
    in a 1.5" width and are not that happy with their performance on softer, slippery surfaces. I have
    found that the extra width of a 1.9" slick makes a world of difference. A wider tire can be run with
    lower pressures without fear of pinching or rim damage. These lower pressures make the tire perform
    like an even wider tire and gives plenty of "float" in softer surfaces.

    Even with lower pressures, a wide slick will pedal easier and faster than a knobby pumped up hard.
    To illustrate, try this experiment. Mount your knobby equipped bike in a work stand or turn it
    upside down. Now put the bike in high cruising gear and turn the pedals at a nice cadence. Notice
    the breeze created by those knobbies. Notice how much energy you need to continuously add to the
    pedals to maintain a constant speed. The knobby is essentially a big fan and not just the rear one
    but the front also. So double the pedal energy you feel to approximate both tires spinning. Remember
    the aerodyne by Schwinn? Now thy the same thing with a fat slick. Notice how little energy is
    required to maintain a constant speed? That, not rolling resistance, is the biggest difference in
    pedaling efficiency between a slick and a knobby. But the rolling resistance difference is
    significant also, even if the slick is run with less air pressure. So fat slicks can provide a
    smoother ride which is important to many people who ride for fun and don't have or want
    full-suspension as well as a faster ride.

    I have even found the slicks to outperform knobbies (of the same width) in certain loose conditions
    like deep or loose gravel and even certain types of sand, wet and dry. I believe this is because the
    knobbies tend displace individual stones, disrupting the surface, while the fat slick can compress
    some materials which can make for a more stable base. I have seen this many times climbing gravel
    with others who use knobbies. Dry fine sand can be a problem though. I have often wanted to try even
    wider slicks for certain conditions.

    For steeper, more technical rocky trials the slicks often give more consistent and predictable
    performance. I believe this is because a knobby can hook up on irregular edges of the rocks, roots
    or bark but give away suddenly and unexpectedly if the knobs slip off the surface irregularity. This
    may not be a big concern as the knobby will likely hook back up on something else soon. But the
    slick gives smoother, more predictable traction and performance which I really enjoy. In comparison,
    the fat slick is more predictable and smoother, if it does come off the edge of an embedded trail
    rock or root and slides a short ways down the face it will give predictable friction during the
    slide helping the rider to relax .

    On wet pavement nothing grips as well as a slick that is inflated to road pressures. Bicycles have a
    high enough loading per area of contact patch that hydro-planing is not a problem. The wider contact
    patch of a wide slick (compared to a narrow tire of any type) gives a smooth consistent traction at
    high lean angles that is not as likely to surprise the rider by slipping out due to the traction
    "averaging" of the larger contact patch. It's supremely fun to eat up fast pavement corners, wet or
    dry, with wide slicks with confidence and without scrubbing off a lot of speed as treaded tires will
    do. If traction is lost while leaned over in the wet (say an unexpected white vinyl pavement marking
    or a smooth metal manhole cover that is unavoidable) the slick is less likely to throw the rider in
    highside when it hooks back up because there are no knobbies to tuck under, bite temporarily and
    then release suddenly, just smooth predictable traction.

    The weak link of fat slicks is wet leaves, organic matter, mud and deep, dry, fine sand. If you are
    a weekend warrior who thrives on going and getting muddy and your favorite trails are high in wet
    organic slime and downhill speed is the name of the game, then knobbies are for you. If you
    primarily ride on firm surfaces, wet or dry pavement and rock, packed dirt, wet sand beaches, grass
    and gravel and you like to cover a lot of ground, appreciate a smoother, quieter more comfortable
    ride then you owe it to yourself to try fat slicks as a good all-around tire choice. You may never
    turn back. Pump them up for covering the distance and let them soft for more technical endeavors or
    to increase the ride comfort, the choice is yours.

    Mike Mullen

  2. Mike Mullen said:

    This is my first post to this newsgroup and I thought I would share my experience over the last 10
    years with fat, treadless tires.

    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    So I've read a lot of old Usenet postings on the subject of slicks and that's what prompted me to
    write this post. I feel like a lot of people are prejudiced against slicks because it doesn't seem
    intuitive that they should work very well under a wide range of conditions. My experience is that a
    slick works amazingly well under all sorts of conditions (with a few limitations) but only if the
    tire is plenty wide. A lot of people try slicks in a 1.5" width and are not that happy with their
    performance on softer, slippery surfaces. I have found that the extra width of a 1.9" slick makes a
    world of difference. A wider tire can be run with lower pressures without fear of pinching or rim
    damage. These lower pressures make the tire perform like an even wider tire and gives plenty of
    "float" in softer surfaces.

    I agree with you here. On my beater bike I use a 1.5" slick on the back and a 1.95" on the front. It
    allows me to go fast while still offering plenty of shock absorbtion felt at the handlebars.

    Quoted message said:

    Even with lower pressures, a wide slick will pedal easier and faster than a knobby pumped up hard.
    To illustrate, try this experiment. Mount your knobby equipped bike in a work stand or turn it
    upside down. Now put the bike in high cruising gear and turn the pedals at a nice cadence. Notice
    the breeze created by those knobbies. Notice how much energy you need to continuously add to the
    pedals to maintain a constant speed. The knobby is essentially a big fan and not just the rear one
    but the front also. So double the pedal energy you feel to approximate both tires spinning.
    Remember the aerodyne by Schwinn? Now thy the same thing with a fat slick. Notice how little energy
    is required to maintain a constant speed? That, not rolling resistance, is the biggest difference
    in pedaling efficiency between a slick and a knobby. But the rolling resistance difference is
    significant also, even if the slick is run with less air pressure. So fat slicks can provide a
    smoother ride which is important to many people who ride for fun and don't have or want
    full-suspension as well as a faster ride.

    Now this I don't believe. I can see that when the tire is not loaded then the air resistance will
    have a noticeable effect but that doesn't show how it compares with rolling resistance in terms of
    magnitude when you are riding along.

    Quoted message said:

    I have even found the slicks to outperform knobbies (of the same width) in certain loose conditions
    like deep or loose gravel and even certain types of sand, wet and dry. I believe this is because
    the knobbies tend displace individual stones, disrupting the surface, while the fat slick can
    compress some materials which can make for a more stable base. I have seen this many times climbing
    gravel with others who use knobbies. Dry fine sand can be a problem though. I have often wanted to
    try even wider slicks for certain conditions.

    Schwalbe makes a 26x2.35 tire that is close to slick called the Big Apple. I bought a set of these
    to put on my cross-country bike but they are a very loose fit on the rims I have now, so I'll wait
    until next year when I build up another set of wheels.

    <http://schwalbetires.com/on_tour.php?Nickname=BIG%20APPLE&Image=TireImages/big_apple.gif>

    Maxxis was also supposed to start making a 26.2.35 based on one of their 20" BMX tires but I don't
    know whether they ever got around to
    it..

    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    The weak link of fat slicks is wet leaves, organic matter, mud and deep, dry, fine sand.

    Like wet pavement, with things like wet leaves and wet personhole covers having knobby tires will
    not help, only hurt. In the case of leaves, often the problem is the top leaf slipping on the leaves
    underneath. I prefer not to ride when the trails are muddy so this wouldn't affect me too much;
    that's why I decided to try the Schwalbes so I can definitely relate to your point of view.

    --
    Chris Bird

  3. Mike Mullen said:

    This is my first post to this newsgroup and I thought I would share my experience over the last 10
    years with fat, treadless tires.

    That's a bad start. Warning readers that ten years of tire trouble is going to be recounted here, on
    a page, that at the outset, is full of text looks more like a reading assignment in a text on tread
    compounds.

    There must be a more concise way of presenting this. I for one skipped to the next issue.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

  4. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This is my first post to this newsgroup and I thought I would share my experience over the last
    10 years with fat, treadless tires.

    That's a bad start. Warning readers that ten years of tire trouble is going to be recounted here,
    on a page, that at the outset, is full of text looks more like a reading assignment in a text on
    tread compounds.

    I read it. It was informative and full of information gained from experience. Nowhere was any
    trouble mentioned, he seemed to have the perfect experience with his tires.

    Quoted message said:

    There must be a more concise way of presenting this. I for one skipped to the next issue.

    Okay, long story short:

    WARNING: My memory of SOMEBODY ELSE'S OPINIONS follows. These are somebody else's ideas, even though
    they are my words. I, personally, have not had experience with these things. I really have no reason
    to write this message, and am a glutton for punishment. Please flame me now.

    -Fat slicks (very fat), are suprisingly good tires for almost all types of riding. This
    includes off road.

    -Wet leaves, mud, and deep, fine, dry sand were listed as the terrain you won't do so well with.

    -Dirt, wet sand, wet or dry road, rocks, pulverized-size rocks, babyheads, and so forth are all
    handled superiorly by such tires, with a wide range of pressure adjustments used.

    -These tires are very predictable and consistant, and won't suprise you; a front-wheel skid is more
    recoverable and less likely to highside.

    WARNING: That was my memory of SOMEBODY ELSE'S OPINIONS. These are somebody else's ideas, even
    though they are my words. I, personally, have not had experience with these things. I really have no
    reason to write this message, and am a glutton for punishment. Please flame me now.

    --------INSERT FLAME HERE----------

    --------END OF INSERT FLAME----------

    Thank you all, and have a nice day.

    Quoted message said:

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]


    --
    Rick Onanian

  5. Quoted message said:

    That's a bad start. Warning readers that ten years of tire trouble is going to be recounted here,
    on a page, that at the outset, is full of text looks more like a reading assignment in a text on
    tread compounds.

    There must be a more concise way of presenting this. I for one skipped to the next issue.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

    Jobst, that may have been a bad start but I never claimed to be writing a well organized essay, it's
    just a Usenet post summarizing my mostly positive experiences with slicks under a wide variety of
    conditions. Personally, I think it is bad form to criticize without even taking the time to read the
    body of the post. I actually respect the knowledge that you have shared on this subject over the
    last few years and am mostly in agreement with your findings and opinions.

    Mike Mullen

  6. Quoted message said:

    I read it. It was informative and full of information gained from experience. Nowhere was any
    trouble mentioned, he seemed to have the perfect experience with his tires.

    Rick, thanks for pointing that out.

    Quoted message said:

    WARNING: My memory of SOMEBODY ELSE'S OPINIONS follows. These are somebody else's ideas, even
    though they are my words. I, personally, have not had experience with these things. I really have
    no reason to write this message, and am a glutton for punishment. Please flame me now.

    I'm not going to flame you, your reading comprehension and memory seems remarkably good. In
    reading your summary I noticed that I may have come across as overly positive on slicks in a
    couple of areas:

    Quoted message said:

    -Dirt, wet sand, wet or dry road, rocks, pulverized-size rocks, babyheads, and so forth are all
    handled superiorly by such tires, with a wide range of pressure adjustments used.

    I should point out that only a few types of loose materials are handled in a superior manner with
    slicks. Most loose materials are handled well enough but not as well as knobbies. A racer would find
    knobies superior in almost all types of loose material as time is of the essence and the power is
    available to blast through. As a recreational rider I find the slicks can be an advantage as they
    can navigate some of these materials with less sinking and less energy expended due to the fact that
    the knobbies have a tendency to displace the loose material (traction surface) more than a slick of
    the same width but a knobby would probably be able to maintain control at a higher speed.

    Quoted message said:


    -These tires are very predictable and consistant, and won't suprise you; a front-wheel skid is
    more recoverable and less likely to highside.

    The last comment was in the context of wet pavement, hitting a slick spot (like a vinyl stripe)
    followed by a return to wet pavement. In dirt a knobby will generally make a nicer recovery becouse
    of it's superior traction. For racing a knobby is generally superior. But recreational riders, those
    who like to cover a lot of ground, negotiate some tricky rocky spots, wet sand beaches, pavement
    etc., fat slicks shouldn't be overlooked as they perform much better than intuition would indicate.

    There are other advantages I forgot to mention. In the rain knobbies make nice sprinklers with water
    spraying everywhere. Fat slicks are far superior. The surface tension holds the water to the skin of
    the tire until centripital force causes it to spin off the very center of the tire. It's surprising
    how much drier you will stay as most of the water hits the down tube and seat tube. I use a standard
    rack with a piece of plastic to block the water from my back, fenders aren't all that necessary
    unless you demand an even drier ride.

    Thanks for your quite accurate summary, I guess I should learn to be more concise.

    Mike Mullen

  7. Quoted message said:

    Now this I don't believe. I can see that when the tire is not loaded then the air resistance will
    have a noticeable effect but that doesn't show how it compares with rolling resistance in terms of
    magnitude when you are riding along.

    I was comparing slicks and knobbies of the same width. At the same pressure, a slick will have lower
    rolling resistance and also less "fan effect" or air resistance. Therefore, by reducing the pressure
    slightly, one can obtain a ride that is at least slightly softer while still having lower overall
    effort. The only question is how much less pressure could be run and still maintain lower effort. I
    can't answer that absolutely, only subjectively from personal experience. Since I like to cover
    ground and not lolly-gag about too much I'm generally riding at speeds where the "fan effect" of a
    knobby would be considerable. Therefore, I find the fan effect to be significant somewhere in the
    neighborhood of the rolling resistance difference between the two types of tires, I would guess more
    significant than the lower rolling resistance, but I can't say with certainty. It may depend upon
    the particular surfaces and tires being compared.

    Quoted message said:

    Schwalbe makes a 26x2.35 tire that is close to slick called the Big Apple. I bought a set of these
    to put on my cross-country bike but they are a very loose fit on the rims I have now, so I'll wait
    until next year when I build up another set of wheels.


    <schwalbetires.comon tour.php big_apple.gif>

    Those are promising looking. I do notice the 2.35 widths are only rated to 55 lbs. while the 2.00
    widths are rated to 70 lbs. I don't know how much this would affect the speed on pavement, probably
    not too much. I find the
    1.90 width slick I've been running (really only measures 1.78) worked better on a lot of softer
    surfaces when I only weighed 185 lbs. compared to my current 200-210 lbs. I understand the newer
    Avocet's actually measure out to the full 1.90 inches so I'm hoping this will help compensate for
    my 40 year old laziness. I've never tried wider tires, undoubtably they would perform better in
    the soft stuff at the slight expense of pavement performance.

    I recall reading a very counter intuitive concept somewhere recently. Maybe someone can comment on
    the accuracy of it. It was stated that with two tires identical in all respects except one being
    wider than the other, with the same pressure, the wider one will have less rolling resistance. I
    know, it sounds bass-ackwards to me too but that's the claim. I had to read it four times and I'm
    not convinced it's right.

    Quoted message said:


    Like wet pavement, with things like wet leaves and wet personhole covers having knobby tires will
    not help, only hurt. In the case of leaves, often the problem is the top leaf slipping on the
    leaves underneath. I prefer not to ride when the trails are muddy so this wouldn't affect me too
    much; that's why I decided to try the Schwalbes so I can definitely relate to your point of view.

    Now I'll argue the other side of the coin. A knobby will almost always help in this situation
    because the higher psi of the contact patch (since a knobby has a smaller one) has a better chance
    of "mashing" through the leaves and finding some purchase.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

    Mike Mullen

  8. Mike Mullen said:
    Quoted message said:

    Schwalbe makes a 26x2.35 tire that is close to slick called the Big Apple. I bought a set of
    these to put on my cross-country bike but they are a very loose fit on the rims I have now, so
    I'll wait until next year when I build up another set of wheels.


    <schwalbetires.comon tour.php big_apple.gif>

    Those are promising looking. I do notice the 2.35 widths are only rated to 55 lbs. while the 2.00
    widths are rated to 70 lbs.

    That's strange since the 2.35" tire I have here indicates a minimum of 30 psi and a maximum of 65.
    Since I run my 1.95" tire at 65 psi, I will probably end up trying about 50 psi when I use the
    Schwalbes. I imagine only a really heavy load would necessitate running them at 65+
    psi.

    If you haven't already, take a look at Sheldon Brown's page on tires:

    sheldonbrown.comtires.html

    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    I recall reading a very counter intuitive concept somewhere recently. Maybe someone can comment on
    the accuracy of it. It was stated that with two tires identical in all respects except one being
    wider than the other, with the same pressure, the wider one will have less rolling resistance. I
    know, it sounds bass-ackwards to me too but that's the claim. I had to read it four times and I'm
    not convinced it's right.

    The idea is that because the smaller tire deforms less and most of the energy loss is from
    deformation of the tire. As Sheldon points out, isn't of much practical value since a larger tire
    should be inflated to a lower pressure for it to be of benefit.

    draco.acs.uci.edu8b.14.html

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Like wet pavement, with things like wet leaves and wet personhole covers having knobby tires will
    not help, only hurt. In the case of leaves, often the problem is the top leaf slipping on the
    leaves underneath. I prefer not to ride when the trails are muddy so this wouldn't affect me too
    much; that's why I decided to try the Schwalbes so I can definitely relate to your point of view.

    Now I'll argue the other side of the coin. A knobby will almost always help in this situation
    because the higher psi of the contact patch (since a knobby has a smaller one) has a better chance
    of "mashing" through the leaves and finding some purchase.

    That seems reasonable too. Either way, larger tires at lower pressures will help immensely.

    --
    Chris Bird

  9. Mike Mullen said:
    Quoted message said:

    That's a bad start. Warning readers that ten years of tire trouble is going to be recounted here,
    on a page, that at the outset, is full of text looks more like a reading assignment in a text on
    tread compounds.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    There must be a more concise way of presenting this. I for one skipped to the next issue.

    Quoted message said:

    Jobst, that may have been a bad start but I never claimed to be writing a well organized essay,
    it's just a Usenet post summarizing my mostly positive experiences with slicks under a wide
    variety of conditions. Personally, I think it is bad form to criticize without even taking the
    time to read the body of the post. I actually respect the knowledge that you have shared on this
    subject over the last few years and am mostly in agreement with your findings and opinions.

    You're right and I'm sorry for jumping on it. I think I had just read too much of the old gripes
    that "the Bicyclke Wheel" has it all wrong and came away with a negative attitude.

    Yes the battle for larger slick tires is a long haul. People didn't invent miniature automobile
    treads for nothing. All the early tires were slick and when cars went to patterned tread, the
    bicycle folks followed suit. Until we had bicycle races on mud, there wasn't any need for knobby
    tires either.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

  10. I said:

    The idea is that because the smaller tire deforms less

    Sorry, the smaller tire deforms more.

    --
    Chris Bird

  11. Chris B. [email protected] said:

    Maxxis was also supposed to start making a 26.2.35 based on one of their 20" BMX tires but I don't
    know whether they ever got around to
    it..

    That's the Maxxis Hookworm 26 x 2.5", also available in 24". It's actually the same width when
    inflated as the Schwalbe Big Apple 2.35" (I have both), but it is a very different tire.

    The Hookworm is built on a "downhill" MTB tire casing, so it has a stiff, thick (and heavy) carcass.
    It has tread all the way to the beads of the tire. And it has a tight, tight, tight fit on the rim,
    because downhill morons like to keep riding after they flat. I can change almost any tire without
    tools, but the Hookworm requires several levers to remove. It's rated for 65 psi but feels like it
    could take 200.

    Chalo Colina

  12. Mike Mullen said:

    Thanks for your quite accurate summary, I guess I should learn to be more concise.

    Your verbosity provided useful information. It's the formatting that would have made the difference.

    You could do like I do, with the short paragraphs or the bulleted points. Or, you could put a
    summary at the top and verbose details later.

    Some sort of different formatting would have helped; at least some blank lines, as whitespace makes
    a long post look less daunting, unless overdone (I sometimes overdo it).

    Quoted message said:

    Mike Mullen


    --
    Rick Onanian

  13. (Chalo) said:
    Chris B. [email protected] said:

    Maxxis was also supposed to start making a 26.2.35 based on one of their 20" BMX tires but I
    don't know whether they ever got around to
    it..

    That's the Maxxis Hookworm 26 x 2.5", also available in 24". It's actually the same width when
    inflated as the Schwalbe Big Apple 2.35" (I have both), but it is a very different tire.

    The Hookworm is built on a "downhill" MTB tire casing, so it has a stiff, thick (and heavy)
    carcass. It has tread all the way to the beads of the tire. And it has a tight, tight, tight fit on
    the rim, because downhill morons like to keep riding after they flat. I can change almost any tire
    without tools, but the Hookworm requires several levers to remove. It's rated for 65 psi but feels
    like it could take 200.

    Thanks Chalo, I was hoping you'd come along and shed some light on the situation <g>. It sounds like
    I made the right choice by buying the Schwalbes. I'm curious, do you find the Big Apple to be a
    relatively loose fitting tire? I had already noticed that the rims I installed them on are unusual
    in that it is very easy to get any tire on and off but when I put the Big Apples on, I was surprised
    at just how loose a fit they were (the rims are too narrow to use with them anyway, but of course I
    wanted to get an idea of the tire's profile when I got them home). I'm hoping that they are a
    slightly loose fit as I intend to build up a set of wheels with Rhyno Lite XL rims and based on my
    previous experience with Sun rims, I figure they will match nicely.

    Still, I would be interested to hear any of your findings.

    --
    Chris Bird

  14. Chris B. [email protected] said:

    I'm curious, do you find the Big Apple to be a relatively loose fitting tire?

    Not especially. Because of its thin, floppy sidewalls, it's very easy to mount and dismount, though.

    Quoted message said:

    (the rims are too narrow to use with them anyway, but of course I wanted to get an idea of the
    tire's profile when I got them home).

    In my experience fat tires can work nicely with narrow rims (and give the most cushioned ride that
    way) as long as you keep plenty of air pressure in them to prevent casing rollover.

    Chalo Colina

  15. Another wide slick for normal mountain bikes is the Ritchey Moby Slick. 2.1" width listed on the
    tire. Available from Colorado Cyclist and Nashbar for $20 I believe.

  16. [email hidden] (Russell Seaton) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Another wide slick for normal mountain bikes is the Ritchey Moby Slick. 2.1" width listed on the
    tire. Available from Colorado Cyclist and Nashbar for $20 I believe.

    Corrections. $23 for the Ritchey Moby Bite from Nashbar. Colorado Cyclist does not carry it anymore.

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