Favorite WheelSets

Johnny Sunset said:

Quoted message said:

So if you had vast funds and were in a competitive endeavour on the
bike for which you cared about, you'd use those wheels instead of a
pair of Zipps?

Bizarre.

If I had vast funds, I would be overcompensated relative to my
contribution to society.

Does Zipp make an ISO 305-mm rim that is wide enough for a 35-mm tire,
and can be spoked to a 36-hole, single-sided, Phil Wood disc brake
hub?

If I want to be more aerodynamic, I could just make some wheel covers.
With the small diameter wheels, crosswind effects would not be nearly
the issue as they would be on ISO 571-mm and ISO 622-mm wheels.

You'd use those tires in a competive event -- like a triathlon or bike
race - on normal roads?

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JT
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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Johnny Sunset said:

Quoted message said:

So if you had vast funds and were in a competitive endeavour on the
bike for which you cared about, you'd use those wheels instead of a
pair of Zipps?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bizarre.

Quoted message said:

If I had vast funds, I would be overcompensated relative to my
contribution to society.

Quoted message said:

Does Zipp make an ISO 305-mm rim that is wide enough for a 35-mm tire,
and can be spoked to a 36-hole, single-sided, Phil Wood disc brake
hub?

Quoted message said:

If I want to be more aerodynamic, I could just make some wheel covers.
With the small diameter wheels, crosswind effects would not be nearly
the issue as they would be on ISO 571-mm and ISO 622-mm wheels.

You'd use those tires in a competive event -- like a triathlon or bike
race - on normal roads?

The fast tire is the 35-305 Primo Comet, which is about as narrow and
fragile a tire I would put on a bike that will easily exceed 40-mph on
a moderate downhill. For all-around use, the 53-305 Schwalbe City Jet
is a good tire, while the 53-305 Maxxis Hookworm would be the choice
for greatest damage/puncture resistance and durability.

As a general rule, smaller diameter wheels require wider tires.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

On Jun 18, 6:03 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:15:21 -0700, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

I, of course, wouldn't
have recommended Zipps 440s but a lot of the pros ride them at
ironmans.

Why not?

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JT
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I think that they are on the very expensive side and I don't think
that she would notice a significant performance difference. But, maybe
I am mistaken. She may do much better, and even be happier.

I have decided that I won't give people advise on what to buy cycling
wise anymore. I'll refer them to the local bike shop. They are the
experts. I hope that the bike shop doesn't advise people in my
profession.

Andres

Johnny Sunset said:

The fast tire is the 35-305 Primo Comet, which is about as narrow and
fragile a tire I would put on a bike that will easily exceed 40-mph on
a moderate downhill.

I'll ask again, would you use those tires in a competitive event, such
as a road race or triathlon, on normal roads, assuming you had vast
funds to ride whatever is available?

If you want to say "I'll never participate in such an event" that's a
valid answer.

--
JT
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email hidden said:

I think that they are on the very expensive side and I don't think
that she would notice a significant performance difference. But, maybe
I am mistaken. She may do much better, and even be happier.

That's the thing. An honest, informed bit of advice to that person
would be "Those wheels will cost $1,200 more, and probably will make
you 15 or 30 seconds faster over an hour or two of racing. They're
probably a little less durable than the 28/32 Velocity alternative
from that shop, so you should reserve them for special events. If you
ride them all the time they might cause trouble. Is that worth it to
you? Perhaps there are other ways to get speed for the same or less
money."

Inform her on the reality and let her see the tradeoffs.

Not the anti-trick end BS (sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is BS)
you've laid out.
--
JT
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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Johnny Sunset said:

The fast tire is the 35-305 Primo Comet, which is about as narrow and
fragile a tire I would put on a bike that will easily exceed 40-mph on
a moderate downhill.

I'll ask again, would you use those tires in a competitive event, such
as a road race or triathlon, on normal roads, assuming you had vast
funds to ride whatever is available?

If (big if) they allowed me to ride said bicycle in a road race, I
would use the 35-305 Primo Comet tire on the front.

If I were riding a bicycle in a race with ISO 571-mm or ISO 622-mm
wheels, I would choose a 23-mm wide tire, as testing appears to
indicate the aerodynamic gain from narrower tires is outweighed by
increased rolling resistance (at normal inflation pressures), unless
it was a very smooth surface such as a velodrome that allowed for very
high inflation pressures.

If I were to enter an event on an upright with small wheels (e.g. Bike
Friday), I would use a 28-mm wide tire.

Quoted message said:

If you want to say "I'll never participate in such an event" that's a
valid answer.

I will do a triathlon when they eliminate the swimming and running
portions. 😉

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

On Jun 19, 1:57 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 19:40:49 -0700, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

I think that they are on the very expensive side and I don't think
that she would notice a significant performance difference. But, maybe
I am mistaken. She may do much better, and even be happier.

That's the thing. An honest, informed bit of advice to that person
would be "Those wheels will cost $1,200 more, and probably will make
you 15 or 30 seconds faster over an hour or two of racing. They're
probably a little less durable than the 28/32 Velocity alternative
from that shop, so you should reserve them for special events. If you
ride them all the time they might cause trouble. Is that worth it to
you? Perhaps there are other ways to get speed for the same or less
money."

Inform her on the reality and let her see the tradeoffs.

Not the anti-trick end BS (sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is BS)
you've laid out.
--
JT
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I never laid pro or anti-trick BS. A friend of mine asked me about
buying some new wheels for herself. I suggested that she talked to
Peter at Vecchios. She ended up talking to Sean and got the velocities
w record hubs. I thought that this was a good set of wheels. It turned
out she wanted something that looked flashier like 440s. I wouldn't
have recommended that, but I never told her anything.

As I said, maybe she would have been happier with 440s. It has become
obvious to me that equipment that looks flashier and "faster" does, in
fact, make people feel that they are much faster. I ride with them one
weekend and they are riding a certain component, frame, etc. The next
weekend, they have a new ultra trick bike. They ride proportionally as
fast as the previous weekend. Yet, the feel that the bike performs so
much faster. So, I feel happy for them and do not say anything. I am
happy with their acquisition and let them live happily. I just
wouldn't necessary recommend that they acquire whet they did. That's
it.

On ocassion, their trades really hurt me. A while back there was a
fellow cyclist who would ride a really nice lugged Serotta frame.
Eventually he traded it in for a lightspeed with curved seatstays.
That hurt my personal aesthetic sense. I really liked the Serotta, but
that's me.

On the other hand, I am really happy for the bike shops. They are
doing very well, They are growing, making more money, and there are
more bike shops in the city than ever. In the late 90s, the few bike
shops were all but dying and rode biking was all but disappearing.

Andres

email hidden said:

They ride proportionally as
fast as the previous weekend.

I'm amazed you feel you can see speed. Or do you have some more
precise source of info?

--
JT
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On Jun 19, 1:57 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

That's the thing. An honest, informed bit of advice to that person
would be "Those wheels will cost $1,200 more, and probably will make
you 15 or 30 seconds faster over an hour or two of racing. They're
probably a little less durable than the 28/32 Velocity alternative
from that shop, so you should reserve them for special events. If you
ride them all the time they might cause trouble. Is that worth it to
you? Perhaps there are other ways to get speed for the same or less
money."

That's a pretty good way to put it. Sometimes it is difficult to find
out what a person really *wants* (they often aren't sure themselves),
and it is also difficult not to influence them with my own prejudices.
But in the end you want them to be happy with whatever they get, so it
is worth the trouble to ask them a lot of questions and let them take
their time. It isn't unusual for someone to say that they want their
new wheels to last "forever"... but they also want aluminum clinchers
that weigh under 1400g. Invariably, the 1400g is more important to
them than longevity... even if you tell them exactly how much faster
they will be able to climb by saving 200g.

BTW, the 404s would probably be ~2% faster than the 28/32 round spoke
Deep Vs, or ~1 minute per hour.

On Jun 19, 6:27 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 05:12:37 -0700, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

They ride proportionally as
fast as the previous weekend.

I'm amazed you feel you can see speed. Or do you have some more
precise source of info?

Well, no, it is an approximation. I use myself and othe cyclists as a
gauge. I ride within a performance range based on my abilities. I know
the people in my group that ride faster, that ride slower and that
ride about the same. Some get drop on the hills, some drop everyone
else, some take longer pulls, some suck more wheel, etc. I am sure
that you know the capabilities of your riding partners pretty well
from riding with them regularly.

If, the guy who gets dropped and is always in the back on every ride,
shows up with a new bike and starts taking all the pulls and drops
everyone on the next hill, and the only variable is the new bike, then
I would pay homage to the equipment.

OTOH, if the person invests a gazillion dolars in the newst gadget and
cannot ride any faster, then I will assume that the equipment does not
offer a really performance advantage.

Now, there are subtle advantages, like a few seconds in a TT or more
confort over the long run which may result in less muscle fatigue,
less calories burned, etc. However, if the performance of a person
within a group doesn't increase or decrease notizably by the
equipment, I would make the unprecise hypothesis that within a range,
equipment does not improve performance in a significant way.

Andres

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:08:35 -0700, Ron Ruff <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Sometimes it is difficult to find
out what a person really *wants* (they often aren't sure themselves),
and it is also difficult not to influence them with my own prejudices.
But in the end you want them to be happy with whatever they get, so it
is worth the trouble to ask them a lot of questions and let them take
their time. It isn't unusual for someone to say that they want their
new wheels to last "forever"... but they also want aluminum clinchers
that weigh under 1400g. Invariably, the 1400g is more important to
them than longevity... even if you tell them exactly how much faster
they will be able to climb by saving 200g.

BTW, the 404s would probably be ~2% faster than the 28/32 round spoke
Deep Vs, or ~1 minute per hour.

That's more than I'd thought -- cool.

--
JT
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email hidden said:

Now, there are subtle advantages, like a few seconds in a TT or more
confort over the long run which may result in less muscle fatigue,
less calories burned, etc. However, if the performance of a person
within a group doesn't increase or decrease notizably by the
equipment, I would make the unprecise hypothesis that within a range,
equipment does not improve performance in a significant way.

A hypothesis like that can be very wrong. Here's the thing -- there
are so many factors involved in the speed on the bike in a group
situtation. To see if something makes the rider faster, it has to be
tested in isolation. And there are things that have been tested in
isolation, like the effect of weight and aerodynamics. The effects
will be small, but real. And just because someone else is going
better or worse on any given day, it still means that part would
enable the rider to go a little faster than they would w/o it.
--
JT
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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:08:35 -0700, Ron Ruff <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

BTW, the 404s would probably be ~2% faster than the 28/32 round spoke
Deep Vs, or ~1 minute per hour.

That's more than I'd thought -- cool.

Excuse me, I meant thanks for the info, but it's a little disturbing
to hear the difference is that much.
--
JT
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On Jun 19, 6:37 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Excuse me, I meant thanks for the info, but it's a little disturbing
to hear the difference is that much.

The 404s and their clones have been wind tunnel tested many times, but
I have to guess on the Deep Vs. The 30mm rim is ok, but so many round
spokes (28f, 32r) will hurt things. Based on all of Tour Mag's tests
I'd guess a total CdA difference of ~.015m^2 between those two
wheelsets, which is roughly 6% of the total drag (.25m^2) in a decent
but not great TT setup. The speed difference would be then be ~1.8% on
the flat (26.21 vs 25.74mph for a 165lb rider at 300W). If the Deep Vs
had say 18f, 24r CX-Rays I'd expect the drag difference to be ~.
005m^2, and the speed differential only 0.6%. You can make fairly aero
wheels with aluminum rims, but you have to go to deep carbon if you
want that extra fraction of a percent.