few questions...

ZioNemo said:

Hi,
I'm relatively new to low-carb (6 weeks, after my physician advise) and
I'm trying to learn about it.
I read some books (including a couple of Lyle McDonald's book that are
frequently cited here) and I still have a few questions I didn't find
answered:

The FAQ for the group is here.

http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~agross/asdlc/

Quoted message said:

1) no answer

Quoted message said:

2) I understand that insulin spikes are considered "very evil" by almost
everyone (including my physician).
Lyle says something about the problem (fiber & fats slow the adsorption
of glucides "flattening" the spike), but I would like to have some
better insight on ways to eliminate (reduce?) the problem.
I do not think I will want to stay in low-carb for life and, being
Italian, I *will* have pasta at least a few times a week! 🙂
I would like to avoid huge spikes when I will do so (about 10Kg/20pounds
from now).

The addition of fats or protein or complex carbohydrates are all
supposed to "dilute" or otherwise modify the rate of digestion of the
pasta carbs, and then to diminish and spread out in time the peak of the
insulin.

Quoted message said:

3) Lyle advises for "reward meals" and also advises to take them in the
evening.
While I understand the psychological reasons given I also understand
having a "heavy" supper is the best way to convert whatever in fat (you
will not be burning what you ate).
How do those mix? Is this relevant?

There are current dietary experts who claim that this OLD advice is just
old advice..... based on old thinking. The conversion of calories to
fat isn't exactly done on a 12 hour or 24 hour accounting cycle.

It used to be believed that the Sun revolved around the earth. This is
OLD science too.

Quoted message said:

4) no answer

5) By the way: Is it Ok to get Ephedrine pills and Caffeine through
"normal" coffee drinking?

no answer

Quoted message said:

Thanks in Advance
I have some more questions, but this is already long enough 🙂
ZioNemo

--
1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplemental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

ZioNemo said:

Hi,
I'm relatively new to low-carb (6 weeks, after my physician advise)
and I'm trying to learn about it.
I read some books (including a couple of Lyle McDonald's book that are
frequently cited here) and I still have a few questions I didn't find
answered:

I highly recommend this newsgroup's FAQ to you, which covers your
quesitons and quite a bit more.

Quoted message said:

1) I understand the depletion phase will empty the reservoirs of
glycogen in both liver and muscle tissue.
I also understand a lot (3 times the weight of the glycogen) will go
with it.
This accounts for some of the weight lost at the very beginning of the
diet and it is supposed to be restored when you go on maintenance.
Now the question:
What is the amount of glycogen we normally carry around?
Alternatively:
How many kilograms (or pounds) did I lose for this effect (possibly as
a function of the lean mass) and this I must expect to regain when I
get out of the strict diet?

The amount of glycogen & water weight varies person to person. You'll
figure this out for you. When you go off low-carb at some point,
you'll gain X. And then in a couple days, you'll drop X. Then you'll
know.

Quoted message said:

2) I understand that insulin spikes are considered "very evil" by
almost everyone (including my physician).
Lyle says something about the problem (fiber & fats slow the
adsorption of glucides "flattening" the spike), but I would like to
have some better insight on ways to eliminate (reduce?) the problem.
I do not think I will want to stay in low-carb for life and, being
Italian, I *will* have pasta at least a few times a week! 🙂
I would like to avoid huge spikes when I will do so (about
10Kg/20pounds from now).

I don't know. I think there is no way to avoid them entirely if you
don't do low-carb for life. Note, this does not mean being in ketosis
for life, but it does mean a gradual increase in carb level until you
achieve a maintainenance level. It doesn't mean going back to what you
did before unless you want the same results as you had before.

I'm half Italian. My father's side of the family is pretty much fat
and diabetic. That's what regularly eating pasta in large amount does.
As it happens, there's little flavor in the pasta anyways and most of
the sauces are quite low-carb. So... you may feel differently about
the need for pasta over time.

Quoted message said:

3) Lyle advises for "reward meals" and also advises to take them in
the evening.
While I understand the psychological reasons given I also understand
having a "heavy" supper is the best way to convert whatever in fat
(you will not be burning what you ate).
How do those mix? Is this relevant?

I'm diabetic, so disagree with the whole concept of reward meals. I
low-carb to keep my bg stable. Rewarding myself by spiking it doesn't
make any sense to me at all.

Quoted message said:

4) For various reasons I suspect I have a very efficient regulation of
my base metabolism.
After an initial weight drop (~5Kg) I'm inching down very slowly
(<1Kg/w) in spite of being on a rather strict low-carb diet (last two
weeks I have been told to eat some carbs once a week; I had pasta and
I didn't even go out of ketosis! it just went to a lighter level for
one day).
I'm considering adding some ECA stack to diet (actually I should say:
"add EA: I already take the prescribed quantity of C via my coffee
intake).
What are alternatives?

Patience. A kilogram a week is a pretty good loss rate. We have
people here who'd kill for that kind of weight loss!

As you get closer to goal, you can expect it to slow down considerably.

And btw, that 5 kg loss *might* be the answer to your first question.
If your normal loss rate is running around 1 kg/week, I'd expect the 5
kg/loss consisted of 4 kg of water & glycogen. But I'd not count on it
being that much until I'd been through the cycle a few times - that's
just an estimate. 4 kg is a very large water lsos, so unless you are
very, very large, I'd not expect it to be quite that much.

By the way, you shouldn't eat some carbs once a week, but daily. And
not pasta! Eat veggies. Lotsa low-carb veggies.

It's been a long time since I read Lyle's stuff, but I don't recall
this much silliness in the plan - eating pasta weekly. I know he has
carb-ups, but that obviously wasn't what you were doing if you didn't
even eat enough carb to come out of ketosis.

Quoted message said:

5) By the way: Is it Ok to get Ephedrine pills and Caffeine through
"normal" coffee drinking?

Ephedra is potentially dangerous. Whether you decide to stack or not
is up to you, of course. But your loss rate is pretty high, so I don't
see the point, myself.

ZioNemo wrote:
:: Hi,
:: I'm relatively new to low-carb (6 weeks, after my physician advise)
:: and I'm trying to learn about it.

:: I read some books (including a couple of Lyle McDonald's book that
:: are frequently cited here) and I still have a few questions I didn't
:: find answered:

Which books? Lyle has a forum so you can ask questions there, BTW.

::
:: 1) I understand the depletion phase will empty the reservoirs of
:: glycogen in both liver and muscle tissue.

What are you referring to here? One of Lyle's diets (he uses that term in
his PSMF book)? Or, are you just referring to the beginning of a typical LC
plan? Do you plan to be doing a weight lifting routine?

:: I also understand a lot (3 times the weight of the glycogen) will go
:: with it.
:: This accounts for some of the weight lost at the very beginning of
:: the diet and it is supposed to be restored when you go on
:: maintenance. Now the question:
:: What is the amount of glycogen we normally carry around?

Seems as if I have read that some people can carry the equvilent of about
2000 kcals as glycogen.

:: Alternatively:
:: How many kilograms (or pounds) did I lose for this effect (possibly
:: as a function of the lean mass) and this I must expect to regain
:: when I get out of the strict diet?

How much you lose really depends on you....how heavy you are, how much
muscle mass you have, your frame size, whether you're male or female.
Likely, I'd get 8 to 15 lbs is typical for a guy.

::
:: 2) I understand that insulin spikes are considered "very evil" by
:: almost everyone (including my physician).

Are you a diabetic or someone who is IR? If so, spikes will do harm to your
body. They aren't much of a concern for others, assuming you're not on the
road to becoming diabetic (something you need to determine, if you haven't)

:: Lyle says something about the problem (fiber & fats slow the
:: adsorption of glucides "flattening" the spike), but I would like to
:: have some better insight on ways to eliminate (reduce?) the problem.

Insights? A low carb diet eliminates the problem just fine for most people.
If you're diabetic, I highly recommend you study up and get on plan.

:: I do not think I will want to stay in low-carb for life and, being
:: Italian, I *will* have pasta at least a few times a week! 🙂

Okay.....

:: I would like to avoid huge spikes when I will do so (about
:: 10Kg/20pounds from now).

Well, fat & fiber help lessen the spikes. A good exercise program that
reduces or eliminates IR is good too.
Exercsie before/after carb intake is good.

::
:: 3) Lyle advises for "reward meals" and also advises to take them in
:: the evening.

Which reward meals? That also depends on the diet. A reward meal could
mean just relaxing a bit, and not having a carbrest. For example, if you've
been doing a 1200 kcal/day PSMF, then a reward meal might just be eating
more food that you like...

:: While I understand the psychological reasons given I also understand
:: having a "heavy" supper is the best way to convert whatever in fat
:: (you will not be burning what you ate).
:: How do those mix? Is this relevant?

In my experience, it matters not. You have calories in vs calories out.
Balancing the two is what mostly determines weight loss/gain. Given that,
Supper is best for a carby meal as you're better able to resume plan the
next day, after not eating overnight. Having your carby meal in the am will
likely mean you end up eating more food as those BG swings will drive your
hunger. hence, you end up eating more and thus slowing the rate of your
weight loss even more.

::
:: 4) For various reasons I suspect I have a very efficient regulation
:: of my base metabolism.
:: After an initial weight drop (~5Kg) I'm inching down very slowly
:: (<1Kg/w) in spite of being on a rather strict low-carb diet (last two
:: weeks I have been told to eat some carbs once a week; I had pasta and
:: I didn't even go out of ketosis! it just went to a lighter level for
:: one day).

Eating pasta for carbs is certainly one thing to do....especially if you're
lifting. There are potentially better options from a health standpoint.

:: I'm considering adding some ECA stack to diet (actually I should say:
:: "add EA: I already take the prescribed quantity of C via my coffee
:: intake).
:: What are alternatives?

Why don't you go ask Lyle? He writes about this BS in his books. Why do
you need a short cut?

::
:: 5) By the way: Is it Ok to get Ephedrine pills and Caffeine through
:: "normal" coffee drinking?

Okay? Are you looking for permission? The fact is, you don't need this
stuff to lose weight. Eat less exercise more comes to mind. Start a good
exercise plan built around weight lifting and cardio, and use low carb as
the means to eat less.

Quoted message said:

1) I understand the depletion phase will empty the reservoirs of
glycogen in both liver and muscle tissue.
I also understand a lot (3 times the weight of the glycogen) will go
with it.
This accounts for some of the weight lost at the very beginning of the
diet and it is supposed to be restored when you go on maintenance.

It's restored if "maintenance" means
a carb level that's the same as before
you started limiting carbs. To me
that looks a lot like what's called
a "yo-yo diet."

Quoted message said:

Now the question:
What is the amount of glycogen we normally carry around?

It varies and is based on a number of factors.
Further it's part of the science, but from a
perspective of practicality it's irrelevant.

Quoted message said:

Alternatively:
How many kilograms (or pounds) did I lose for this effect (possibly as a
function of the lean mass) and this I must expect to regain when I get
out of the strict diet?

Experience will answer that. Part of the
weight that you lost quickly at first is
what you will regain. How much of it will
depend on how out of control you allow
yourself to become.

Quoted message said:

2) I understand that insulin spikes are considered "very evil" by almost
everyone (including my physician).

High blood glucose, high insulin, and
spikes (can also be considered reactive
hypoglycemia) never lead to anything
good.

Quoted message said:

Lyle says something about the problem (fiber & fats slow the adsorption
of glucides "flattening" the spike), but I would like to have some
better insight on ways to eliminate (reduce?) the problem.

How about getting a glucometer and putting
a limit on blood glucose. For example,
never let it rise more than 20 mg/dL above
the pre-meal level.

Quoted message said:

I do not think I will want to stay in low-carb for life and, being
Italian, I *will* have pasta at least a few times a week! 🙂
I would like to avoid huge spikes when I will do so (about 10Kg/20pounds
from now).

See the last response. With enough testing
you'll figure out what you can eat and how
much of it you can eat.

Quoted message said:

3) Lyle advises for "reward meals" and also advises to take them in the
evening.

I advise that if you're going to play that
game that breakfast be the "reward" (aka
cheat or high carb) meal. That way the
days activities can burn some of it off.
The evening meal (the last meal before the
sleep cycle) should be the most low-carb
of all. The typical evening meal is meat
and low-carb vegetables.

Quoted message said:

While I understand the psychological reasons given I also understand
having a "heavy" supper is the best way to convert whatever in fat (you
will not be burning what you ate).
How do those mix?

It may be splitting hairs, and again experience
will be your ultimate guide. My experience
tells me that I do better if the evening meal
is early, light (calorically) and low-carb.
Making the first meal after the sleep cycle
the main meal is a big adjustment.

Quoted message said:

Is this relevant?

I think so. It's these kinds of changes that
maximize your results. Water consumption is
another noteworthy factor. 3 liters a day is
common.

Quoted message said:

4) For various reasons I suspect I have a very efficient regulation of
my base metabolism.

That's vague.

Quoted message said:

After an initial weight drop (~5Kg)

Some of the initial weight drop is what you
can expect to regain when you increase your
daily carb quantity.

Quoted message said:

I'm inching down very slowly
(<1Kg/w) in spite of being on a rather strict low-carb diet (last two
weeks I have been told to eat some carbs once a week;

You are getting some carbohydrate every day.
Keep a journal and adjust it.

Quoted message said:

I had pasta and I
didn't even go out of ketosis! it just went to a lighter level for one
day).

Sounds like you're treating this as if it
were a crash diet. The cyclical ketogenic
diets that Lyle explains are radical
bodybuilder programs. The focus here is
more on long term changes to produce lasting
weight and health improvements. What is it
that you're after? What's the big hurry?
If you have good natural blood sugar control,
a moderately low carb diet will be fine.
That means up to 100 grams of carbs per day
is acceptable.

Quoted message said:

I'm considering adding some ECA stack to diet (actually I should say:
"add EA: I already take the prescribed quantity of C via my coffee intake).
What are alternatives?

Dropping the C and seeing if that improves
your loss. Make it up (and then some) with
water. Again, what's the big hurry? It
appears that your goal is 10 more kilos away.
.5 kilo per week will get you there in a
reasonable amount of time--and you'll learn
a lot about what your body responds to along
the way. Use this time to experiment and
figure out a way of eating for the rest of
your life. To lose weight you have to create
a negative caloric balance one way or another.
How you proportion the macronutrients is more
about finding what you can stick with over the
long term. Low carb works in that regard
because of the anorectic (appetite suppressing)
effect of ketosis. In other words, with low
carb you're not as likely to be hungry all the
time even during a severe caloric restriction.

Quoted message said:

5) By the way: Is it Ok to get Ephedrine pills and Caffeine through
"normal" coffee drinking?

Sure. You can take the drug thing as far as
you are willing.

Quoted message said:

Thanks in Advance

You're welcome.

Quoted message said:

I have some more questions, but this is already long enough 🙂

Take your time and keep reading everything about
low carb and diabetes control that you can get
your hands on.
--

Roger Zoul said:

Do you plan to be doing a weight lifting routine?

I strength train.

Mu wrote:
:: On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 12:31:51 -0400, Roger Zoul wrote:
::
::: Do you plan to be doing a weight lifting routine?
::
:: I strength train.

Who are you?

ZioNemo said:

1) I understand the depletion phase will empty the reservoirs of
glycogen in both liver and muscle tissue.
I also understand a lot (3 times the weight of the glycogen) will go
with it.
This accounts for some of the weight lost at the very beginning of the
diet and it is supposed to be restored when you go on maintenance.
Now the question:
What is the amount of glycogen we normally carry around?

There's no good way to find out. You know how much you lost
in the first two weeks and you know that some of it was fat.
Ignore the standard pause during weeks 3+4, then use your
loss rates in weeks 5-9. Subtract half of your loss in weeks
5-9 from your loss in weeks 1-2 and that's as good a guess as
you'll be able to come up with.

Quoted message said:

Alternatively:
How many kilograms (or pounds) did I lose for this effect (possibly as
a function of the lean mass) and this I must expect to regain when I
get out of the strict diet?

Major mistake in meaning: Maintenance and strict diet. Do not
think that there is no middle ground. Do not think that maintenance
is automatically strict or not strict. Most diet plans become less
strict over time and if yours doesn't you should reevaluate it.
Most maintenance plans should not cause your water regain
either.

If you go back to eating like you did before you started, your
water and glycogen will recharge. If you stay reasonably low
in carbs your water and glycogen probably will not.

Quoted message said:

2) I understand that insulin spikes are considered "very evil" by
almost everyone (including my physician).
Lyle says something about the problem (fiber & fats slow the
adsorption of glucides "flattening" the spike), but I would like to
have some better insight on ways to eliminate (reduce?) the problem.
I do not think I will want to stay in low-carb for life and, being
Italian, I *will* have pasta at least a few times a week! 🙂
I would like to avoid huge spikes when I will do so (about
10Kg/20pounds from now).

Consider - If you go off low carb whatever health problems that
you had that put you on the plan will come back. Mix that into
your attitude about that pasta which put you into those health
problems in the first place. maybe a couple of times per month
will be a better idea than a few times per week?

Quoted message said:

3) Lyle advises for "reward meals" and also advises to take them in
the evening.
While I understand the psychological reasons given I also understand
having a "heavy" supper is the best way to convert whatever in fat
(you will not be burning what you ate).
How do those mix? Is this relevant?

The heavy meal theory is based on low fat not low carb so it
does not work as well on low carb. On low carb your total
calories per day continue to matter, but how you eat them in
meals matters much less.

Quoted message said:

4) For various reasons I suspect I have a very efficient regulation of
my base metabolism.
After an initial weight drop (~5Kg) I'm inching down very slowly
(<1Kg/w) in spite of being on a rather strict low-carb diet

Reality check - On the Atkins plan a stall is defined as 4+
weeks without a new low. This definition isn't arbitrary. It
is to show newbies that the initial fast losses tend to give
newbies unrealistic expectations. As long as you are seeing
new lows monthly you are doing fine. The fact that you now
think losing a pound a week is slow doesn't mean your
feelings on the topic are realistic. They aren't. About 2 KG
per month is an ideal loss rate to keep it off. NOT slow and
no way it implies very efficient regulation.

Quoted message said:

I'm considering adding some ECA stack to diet (actually I should say:
"add EA: I already take the prescribed quantity of C via my coffee
intake).
What are alternatives?

The real alternative is to correct your false impression that
you are losing slowly. Do that, realise you are doing great,
and maybe you won't feel the need for an extreme and
unjustified overreaction.