Power meters · Public discussion

Finding "correct" wattage for TT

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Power meters
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19 April 2011
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27 April 2011
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giannip
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  1. Personally I wouldn't dream of pacing the effort on a power number, it seems this second race of the day - and unless the OP has very good knowledge of how that race, and that recovery will have impacted his power then picking a number is more of a lottery on blowing up as just riding it on feel after getting some decent experience. Also as it's a time period that is rarely done, you probably don't have a whole lot of data, and it's potentially very sensitive to conditions - prologues are often point to point and the difference between a tail wind and a head wind could be over a minute difference to your time.

    For me - I went in to an 11 minute TT, with little idea of what I could do - 340w for 22minutes, 400w for 6 minutes were the only really testing sides. It was an undulating course and I paced it on RPE - hitting the uphills harder the downhills, my first 20seconds up a hill and to get up to speed were 700 watts, holding back to threshold there would've not helped my time I'm pretty sure, the next 3minutes on the flat was 380, 80 seconds at 420 up a hill. 2minutes at 310 downhill (some zero in here as I spun out the gear I had and just tucked) 1:50 at 400 uphill. 90 seconds at 310 downhill, and 80 seconds at 410 to finish on the flat. An overall 380 average. It was a good workout (didn't get me anywhere near the money though) But I spend very little time riding either to a power number - I had no idea 380 was achievable, and there's certainly no time to hold back in such a short event.

    I think the most important advice to the OP is to work on position and equipment, particularly if the stage race rules say road bikes only (as is common) as you can make big improvements on your normal comfortable road race set up for a 10 minute effort.

  2. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    Gotta disagree with you here Swampy. I've reviewed an awful lot of power files from TTs and the most classic mistake is hitting not just the opening minute but the opening five minutes way too hard and ending up with a low AP and slow speed as a result. In a longer TT I'd pace the first five to six minutes below FTP and then build but in something as short as Giannip is riding he shouldn't wait that long.

    Remember he blew up last year holding 345 for the first 4 minutes of a 6km TT. He's planning to roll out at 320 for the opening minutes and build from there. That's already pretty aggressive based on previous results but likely necessary for an event this short. The bottom line is that RPE can't catch up in 30 to 45 seconds and this isn't a kilo where everybody pedals squares around the final turns and hope to hang on to the finish. He'll likely be on course for nearly ten minutes(he'd need to sustain 50+ kph including start and turnaround to finish this in 8 minutes) which is too long to just gut it out on desire after an overly hard start.

    -Dave


    The course is an out leg only.

    Start with a 500m slight downhill, then you're doing 60km/hr+ on a steepish downhill, until you hit the first of 2 drags, finishing off with a short downhill, then a km straight & 300m drag to the finish.

    Winning time usually around the 7min 20s mark.

    Average speed of last year's winner 57km/hr av.

    The wind is typically from the back and slightly from the side. If you're in contention you're using either a 55 or 56.

    That's why I'm conservatively aiming for around 8min (7:40+ I'm really hoping for).

    I'm basing it on my current form and the results of team mates from last year's race.

    Unlike them though, I will be riding a road bike with TT bars only & not a full TT bike, so 8min might be more realistic.

    I'm basing my wattage on previous efforts so that I don't blow BUT my performance in training with my team mates suggest higher is possible.

    I was not going to bother too much with the TT until the guy who finished in 7min 40s last year suggested I "give it a go" due to my form.

    I'm quite confident I can hold 330+

    No, Old Guy, I don't assume anything. I look at my power files to make my decisions based on previous performance.

    I don't see the point in lying to myself or others about my power figures. I also believe that by asking people questions, I will always come away with some useful information.

    The 320 mark is the only RECENT, concrete evidence I have & therefore why I am using it as a starting point and asking these questions.

    These figures are form 1 year ago and since then I've dropped 4kg (65kg) and upped FTP.

    The last time I did that TT was in 2007 when I had just started using the PM. I had forgotten to zero it before the TT but the time was 9:14 AP 332 / NP 342, which is why I don't trust the power figures 100% & asking questions. Back then, my FTP was set to 250, 50+w lower than now.

    Apologies for not adding this latest info sooner but the non zero PT was causing me doubt :-)

  3. Quoted post said:

    Unlike them though, I will be riding a road bike with TT bars only & not a full TT bike, so 8min might be more realistic.


    I'd test the TT bars on your road bike to see if they really help - often you'll not see much aero improvement over what you can hold on a straight road bike, you gain comfort - but comfort doesn't matter on an 8 minute event, if will on a longer one. It depends on your position of course, and how low stack your bars and clip-ons are, but I think it's worth checking.

  4. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by JibberJim [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    I'd test the TT bars on your road bike to see if they really help - often you'll not see much aero improvement over what you can hold on a straight road bike, you gain comfort - but comfort doesn't matter on an 8 minute event, if will on a longer one. It depends on your position of course, and how low stack your bars and clip-ons are, but I think it's worth checking.


    Thanks Jim

    Tried them out yesterday ( [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG] ).

    Did my 40min Tempo + a few short / hard effortson them and felt fine and comfy. I didn't change my road bike setup at all, because as you say, it's only 8min.

    I'll be using them for the next 2 days on and off during spins but after yesterday I'm quite happy to use them.

  5. What I meant is are you sure you're actually faster with the tribars on? I know I'm not for such a short TT.

  6. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    I'm still of the belief that Andy has his own personal time machine and discombobulator that confuses timing officials :p

    I did once mistakenly get credited with a 50:18 on a course that actually took me 53 min and change to cover. It didn't really matter since I would have won regardless (or so the promoter argued when declining to correct the results once I learned of the error a couple of days later), but it certainly must have created quite the buzz at the awards ceremony (I had to leave before results were posted).

    Anyway, no secret to, or about, my CdA, which (to paraphrase Smith Barney) was "earned" the old-fashioned way, i.e., by combining good genes with a lot of hard work...

  7. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by JibberJim [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    What I meant is are you sure you're actually faster with the tribars on? I know I'm not for such a short TT.

    Yes, I believe so. It seemed as if I could generate the power easier. I'm not sure if that makes sense at all!

    Anyway, I'm actually looking forward to using them and that has to help in SOME way :-)

  8. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    If we keep this thread going for another day or two maybe we could achieve the highest number of assumptions ever in a TT thread. [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies//smile.gif[/IMG]...


    Yeah, I sure did my share of assumptions which I see were way off based on Giannip's recent post. So one way course, typically tailwinds and historical sub 8 minute finishing times. So guilty as charged on the Ass-U-Me charges and my estimates are too conservative.

    Bottom line, pace to finish strong but don't hold back too long at the start.

    Good luck Giannip,
    -Dave

  9. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    Yeah, I sure did my share of assumptions which I see were way off based on Giannip's recent post. So one way course, typically tailwinds and historical sub 8 minute finishing times. So guilty as charged on the Ass-U-Me charges and my estimates are too conservative.

    Bottom line, pace to finish strong but don't hold back too long at the start.

    Good luck Giannip,
    -Dave


    Thanks a million all. The more discussion the better and if there were any assumptions it was due to lack of info on my part... [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

    Thank you for the good wishes and will let you know how it went.

    Gianni

  10. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by giannip [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]


    It appears you know what you are are doing. I hope you do well.

  11. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    It appears you know what you are are doing. I hope you do well.

    Thanks

  12. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    It appears you know what you are are doing. I hope you do well.

    Thank you

  13. double post...sorry

  14. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by acoggan [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    I did once mistakenly get credited with a 50:18 on a course that actually took me 53 min and change to cover. It didn't really matter since I would have won regardless (or so the promoter argued when declining to correct the results once I learned of the error a couple of days later), but it certainly must have created quite the buzz at the awards ceremony (I had to leave before results were posted).

    Anyway, no secret to, or about, my CdA, which (to paraphrase Smith Barney) was "earned" the old-fashioned way, i.e., by combining good genes with a lot of hard work...

    Nothing wrong with the old-fashioned ways. It's good to hear what folks like yourself are doing to go so fast as efficiently as you do and nice to know that you don't need obscene amounts of power to produce great results. Inspiring really... makes me want to pull the ol' TT bike out even if it does have round steel tubes (for now).

    Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by giannip [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    Thanks Jim

    Tried them out yesterday ( [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG] ).

    Did my 40min Tempo + a few short / hard effortson them and felt fine and comfy. I didn't change my road bike setup at all, because as you say, it's only 8min.

    I'll be using them for the next 2 days on and off during spins but after yesterday I'm quite happy to use them.


    "It's only 8 minutes." Tell that to a prologue guy or a pursuiter - they'll tell you that's a lifetime. Gains that can be had can be significant.

    In addition to just riding around on them, you might want to check them out at 60+km/hr in gusty winds using the intended gear ratios. Trying to get 340watts down through the pedals via a Dinnerplate sized chainring x11 at speed could prove "interesting". You don't want to have to leave that aero tuck at speed but you do want a big enough gear to take full advantage of those hills.

  15. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    Nothing wrong with the old-fashioned ways. It's good to hear what folks like yourself are doing to go so fast as efficiently as you do and nice to know that you don't need obscene amounts of power to produce great results. Inspiring really... makes me want to pull the ol' TT bike out even if it does have round steel tubes (for now).

    "It's only 8 minutes." Tell that to a prologue guy or a pursuiter - they'll tell you that's a lifetime. Gains that can be had can be significant.

    In addition to just riding around on them, you might want to check them out at 60+km/hr in gusty winds using the intended gear ratios. Trying to get 340watts down through the pedals via a Dinnerplate sized chainring x11 at speed could prove "interesting". You don't want to have to leave that aero tuck at speed but you do want a big enough gear to take full advantage of those hills.


    Yep, I did some fast efforts on sweeping bends etc during training.

  16. So, after all that thinking and planning, things came unstuck half way through the 1st stage. Crashed and totaled my bike.........Cest la vie

  17. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by giannip [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    ... things came unstuck half way through the 1st stage. Crashed and totaled my bike......

    Bummer, I hope you came out of it in decent shape.

  18. Yep. I managed to get a lot of speed off, before falling. Just a small bit of road rash on the legs and back.

    I think someone must have landed on my frame as the seat tube is cracked all the way around... Riding the last 40km on a 1990s Cadex with wrong pedals was character building :-)

    Time for go back to a steel bike I think!

    p.s. Winning time for the TT was 7:06

    Training partners did it between 7:26 & 8:02

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