Finish chute designs

I ran the finish at a 10k and we had colored duct tape line (the actual
finish line), the digital clock to the right and even with the line. The
delineators (orange plastic tubes about 3 feet tall) were about 10' apart at
the line, and we had two long 3' chutes starting a few feet after the
finish. I made sure that no places changed after crossing the finish line,
and that we shifted to the alternate chute when the first one filled up.
There were about 600 runners.

I saw the national XC race some years ago when it was outside of LA, and the
delineators were 10-12 feet apart, and several shallow chutes started just a
few feet beyond. The runners were quickly shunted into the next parallel
chute as one filled up.

I thought that was madness, since these guys were going incredibly fast at
the finish and had to come to a dead stop really quickly, but it worked
without a hitch. I would have had a couple of long (50'😉 chutes rather than
4 or 5 short ones.

"D Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I ran the finish at a 10k and we had colored duct tape line (the actual
finish line), the digital clock to the right and even with the line.

Agree, the clock is the official finish line and nothing appears before
the clock. There can be a line on the ground but most people looking up
at the clock. In some of our races the clock is mounted above the line
but takes a support structure

Quoted message said:

The delineators (orange plastic tubes about 3 feet tall) were about
10' apart at the line, and we had two long 3' chutes starting a few
feet after the finish. I made sure that no places changed after
crossing the finish line, and that we shifted to the alternate chute
when the first one filled up. There were about 600 runners.

And the chute usually tapers (narrower) at the end to help keep the
people single file so no one tries to gain a position. There should be
race officials in or near the chute to make sure that people hold their
positions and keep them moving so runners don't back up where the
runners are sprinting to the finish. Either use multiple chutes as Dan
speaks of or one, but make it long enough.

I can remember working the finish line of race(pre chips) with 1000
runners using multiple chutes and tear off tags. The tag strings had to
be numbered and the tear off put on rings in the same direction. You
really needed experienced finish line people especially if there was
money involved.

Most of the road races with 400 or more runners in my area use chips but
the chutes are still necessary to insure you recover ALL the chips. In
fact you need a "guard" posted for those forgetful/sick people. For
small races, 200 or less, I'm still a fan of index cards and filling in
your names and age. This raises penmanship issues but it takes only a
few minutes to do the results.

Parker and I were the chute at the Escarpment Race but we only had 200
with at most 4 finishing at one time. I can't speak for west coast races
but there are no chutes for trail races.

-Doug

D Stumpus said:

I ran the finish at a 10k and we had colored duct tape line (the actual
finish line), the digital clock to the right and even with the line. The
delineators (orange plastic tubes about 3 feet tall) were about 10' apart at
the line, and we had two long 3' chutes starting a few feet after the
finish. I made sure that no places changed after crossing the finish line,
and that we shifted to the alternate chute when the first one filled up.
There were about 600 runners.

I saw the national XC race some years ago when it was outside of LA, and the
delineators were 10-12 feet apart, and several shallow chutes started just a
few feet beyond. The runners were quickly shunted into the next parallel
chute as one filled up.

I thought that was madness, since these guys were going incredibly fast at
the finish and had to come to a dead stop really quickly, but it worked
without a hitch. I would have had a couple of long (50'😉 chutes rather than
4 or 5 short ones.

Thanks, interesting. One of the items that google turned up was the
theory behind designing the length of chutes based on peak arrival of
runners, etc. The idea was to be able to process them while they walked,
but should never come to a complete stop. They also had the parallel
chutes in there. (regressing back to my math lifetime and stopped
reading😉 )

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Doug Freese said:

"D Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I ran the finish at a 10k and we had colored duct tape line (the actual
finish line), the digital clock to the right and even with the line.

Agree, the clock is the official finish line and nothing appears before
the clock. There can be a line on the ground but most people looking up
at the clock. In some of our races the clock is mounted above the line
but takes a support structure

Duh, you have clocks that people can see at the finish? (serious
question) Other than the orienteering event I did (start whenever you're
ready, but record start and stop by official clock) and last year's Lost
Lake, I've never done a race like that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The delineators (orange plastic tubes about 3 feet tall) were about
10' apart at the line, and we had two long 3' chutes starting a few
feet after the finish. I made sure that no places changed after
crossing the finish line, and that we shifted to the alternate chute
when the first one filled up. There were about 600 runners.

And the chute usually tapers (narrower) at the end to help keep the
people single file so no one tries to gain a position. There should be
race officials in or near the chute to make sure that people hold their
positions and keep them moving so runners don't back up where the
runners are sprinting to the finish. Either use multiple chutes as Dan
speaks of or one, but make it long enough.

Ok. If I understand you and Dan, the entire area before the finish line
should be raceable (word?), and the narrow part of chute is for the
timing mgmt - tearing tags, etc., which is what I was thinking. I think
that's what I remember from the couple races I did that did have chutes.
I'll have to admit, after I got thinking about it, there's only been a
few - and most of that was to keep "crowds" out of the runners' way.
"Crowds" may be just the runners who were finished. Most just have line
or stakes on both sides or colored pylons if they need to attract your
attention (finish in a resort with outdoor hotsprings may need some
directional control).

Quoted message said:

I can remember working the finish line of race(pre chips) with 1000
runners using multiple chutes and tear off tags. The tag strings had to
be numbered and the tear off put on rings in the same direction. You
really needed experienced finish line people especially if there was
money involved.

Locally, we have a few people that typically work the finish lines (or
running segment of tri). In winter, they may work the electronic timer
by the actual finish, and they'll have backup observers doing manual
entry in a car. That's as close as I've been.

Quoted message said:

Most of the road races with 400 or more runners in my area use chips but
the chutes are still necessary to insure you recover ALL the chips. In
fact you need a "guard" posted for those forgetful/sick people. For
small races, 200 or less, I'm still a fan of index cards and filling in
your names and age. This raises penmanship issues but it takes only a
few minutes to do the results.

It's interesting the only race I've done that screwed up times - was the
only chipped time one. I went with the 2-hr early start, and they forgot
to add the 2 hrs (actually, more like 1:55, I think) to our times - and
I've never been able to get them to fix that in their results.

But the Tues night race series gets it right (or very close) for same
number of runners in shorter time span (1-1.2 hr, usually vs 2-5 hrs)
and not using chips or bibs. They just hand out numbered strips of paper
at the finish, which corresponds to the electronic timing, we fill them
in, and put them in the right container for our league (lightning,
farm). I honestly can't remember a chute, but there may have been a few
orange pylons to separate those coming in from those finished and just
hanging out. They do it every Tues night for 9 nights in the fall - just
too much work to make a production out of it, except for the race itself.

Quoted message said:

Parker and I were the chute at the Escarpment Race but we only had 200
with at most 4 finishing at one time.

That sounds about peak rate for any of our finishes.

Quoted message said:

I can't speak for west coast races
but there are no chutes for trail races.

That brings up something else that I'd asked about a number of years ago
- the difference between xc and trail races. At least where we are, xc
races tend to be the groomed ski trails - wide, "sanitized" (no or few
roots, rocks), spaghetti-o loops - and the few trail races are in the
state parks on trails with rocks, roots and that may go places. There
might be some trail improvements like bridges, gravel, etc, but not
sanitized like they do ski trails or some mtn bike trails (some trails
are left with rocks/roots, etc as features for the bikers that want them
- know thy trail and clients before doing any maintenance).

In that context, this local race and the Tues night xc series would be
considered xc races, but I think most of the races would be more trail
like. But we tend to lump them with "trail" vs "road".

The folks that are the key helpers for many local races used to coach
the hs xc teams for years (decades) so their setup may reflect a lot of
that. Apparently they have finish lines with major productions - PA
system, banners suspended between scaffolding, etc. When I've questioned
how much some of this stuff is needed (if you're raising money for
charity, I'd like to see the money go there), I was told that for their
money, runners have the right to expect a measured course, timing, and a
bunch of other things that I thought were expectations of road races,
since I'd never heard any trail runners expecting that. (Admittedly, for
snowshoe racers, we dearly love the Eagle River Nature Center - with its
heated nature center and rest rooms at the start / finish. Finish is at
top of trail where it meets patio.)

I'm sure I don't know all about what the RP50/100 RD does, but I do know
she can put on a 50/100 mi race with fewer volunteers on race day (maybe
5 or 6) than this 5/10k. OTOH, it's easier to stay on a national
recreation trail than to follow spaghetti loop trails. For some of us, a
line in the sane works for start / finish. And having run this local one
a couple times (when it was in Oct), I really don't feel anything is
added by all this other stuff. For the kids (1k size), it might do
something for them to hear their name as they come across the finish line.

BTW, as a side note, one thing that was neat yesterday was watching the
first 10k runner come back through 5k turnaround point (about 3/4 into
10k, fairly flat at that moment) - beautiful form, controlled pace,etc.
Duh, that's what running is supposed to look like.😉 I'm used to seeing
people on steep hills, near ends of ultras, etc. He is one of the faster
runners and national class sprint xc skier and literally grew up on
these trails.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks, interesting. One of the items that google turned up was the
theory behind designing the length of chutes based on peak arrival of
runners, etc. The idea was to be able to process them while they
walked, but should never come to a complete stop. They also had the
parallel chutes in there. (regressing back to my math lifetime and
stopped reading😉 )

Speaking if math lifetime but in more to programming, I took a course
in college(way back) called simulation and model building using a
language expressly for this type of event. This was what retail stores
used at that time to compute how many check-out lines to keep open or
toll boths etc, etc.. Of course the correct number to cover the max wave
was always more than they wanted to pay, so you always had to wait
anyway. I think they used a customer-[censored]-off coefficient. Anyway, I
never used it for races but it didn't take too much forethought to know
the chute had to be long or many shorter.

-Doug

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Duh, you have clocks that people can see at the finish? (serious
question) Other than the orienteering event I did (start whenever
you're ready, but record start and stop by official clock) and last
year's Lost Lake, I've never done a race like that.

Our club has a clock and we rent it out for races. In general there is a
clock at most road race finish lines.

Quoted message said:

Ok. If I understand you and Dan, the entire area before the finish
line should be raceable (word?), and the narrow part of chute is for
the timing mgmt - tearing tags, etc., which is what I was thinking.

Correct

Quoted message said:

I think that's what I remember from the couple races I did that did
have chutes. I'll have to admit, after I got thinking about it,
there's only been a few - and most of that was to keep "crowds" out of
the runners' way.

I big races with tight quarters it's also important to herd the
finishers away from already congested finish line with additional people
or barriers.

Quoted message said:

It's interesting the only race I've done that screwed up times - was
the only chipped time one. I went with the 2-hr early start, and they
forgot to add the 2 hrs (actually, more like 1:55, I think) to our
times - and I've never been able to get them to fix that in their
results.

Chip timing and some of the people that offer the service can be good or
a shoestring event. two years ago at a reletrivly large race the timing
outfit got greedy and did two races in two differerent towns. Only
backlash was they did not have enough matts for the finish line. We
didn't know until after it was too late tat about 50 times were not
recorded until it was too late. We did not use that outfit again and
made sure we got the word out to the other clubs. This year thge timing
was close to flawless, less the people that did not secure the chips
properly to their shoes. That falls into the [censored]-happens category.

Quoted message said:

That brings up something else that I'd asked about a number of years
ago - the difference between xc and trail races. At least where we
are, xc races tend to be the groomed ski trails - wide, "sanitized"
(no or few roots, rocks), spaghetti-o loops - and the few trail races
are in the state parks on trails with rocks, roots and that may go
places. There might be some trail improvements like bridges, gravel,
etc, but not sanitized like they do ski trails or some mtn bike trails
(some trails are left with rocks/roots, etc as features for the bikers
that want them - know thy trail and clients before doing any
maintenance).

In that context, this local race and the Tues night xc series would be
considered xc races, but I think most of the races would be more trail
like. But we tend to lump them with "trail" vs "road".

The only ones that tend to honor the truer definition of XC is the high
schools. Therafter XC and cross-country kind of get rolled into one.
Most of the entry forms try to spell it out.

Quoted message said:

The folks that are the key helpers for many local races used to coach
the hs xc teams for years (decades) so their setup may reflect a lot
of that. Apparently they have finish lines with major productions - PA
system, banners suspended between scaffolding, etc. When I've
questioned how much some of this stuff is needed (if you're raising
money for charity, I'd like to see the money go there), I was told
that for their money, runners have the right to expect a measured
course, timing, and a bunch of other things that I thought were
expectations of road races, since I'd never heard any trail runners
expecting that.

At best there is a clock at a trail race. The VT100 with 250-300 runners
never had a clock. You had to trust your watch or ask the guy at the
laptop about your time. As for accurate distance in trail race, well,
stick to the roads it ain't gonna happen and we don't really care as
long as it not off by a huge amount.

Quoted message said:

BTW, as a side note, one thing that was neat yesterday was watching
the first 10k runner come back through 5k turnaround point (about 3/4
into 10k, fairly flat at that moment) - beautiful form, controlled
pace,etc. Duh, that's what running is supposed to look like.😉

I went to the track the other day, first time since maybe last year, and
I had the form of a one legged wounded buffalo. We will try to get a few
more weeks. Did a series of 200/400/200's without a watch. Simply
working on form but both of us knowing full well how much we need the
workout. It took about 4 200's before I even loosened up. An old hill
climber on a track - oil and water. I may get my stride length from 3 to
4 inches. 🙂

We laughed our butts off reminiscing how we used to do routinely do a
dozen 1:20 400's or 8 2:5n.800's. Dem was days. 😉

-Doug

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 20:55:37 -0400, "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Parker and I were the chute at the Escarpment Race but we only had 200
with at most 4 finishing at one time. I can't speak for west coast races
but there are no chutes for trail races.

-Doug

[Speaking from my personal very limited Northern California West Coast
experience . . . ]

The Pacific Coast Trail Runs people do have a chute of sorts. There
is a big finish line banner overhead and a bunch of bright traffic
cones and plastic barrier tape to funnel runners past the race
officials. Yesterday there was a digital clock, but I don't remember
seeing that at #2 son's other trail races. Really, I think the trail
run "chute" is mostly so that when you come down off the trail to the
picnic area of the park you have *something* to orient on and aim for,
not so that they can sort out finishing-places as a huge pack of
runners all come in at once. Sunday was a large event for PC Trial
Runs -- sold out with 400 total runners for the 10K, 20K, 40K, and 50K
combined.
--
Daniel ( [email hidden] )

Doug Freese said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ok. If I understand you and Dan, the entire area before the finish
line should be raceable (word?), and the narrow part of chute is for
the timing mgmt - tearing tags, etc., which is what I was thinking.

Correct

ok, thanks.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I went to the track the other day, first time since maybe last year, and
I had the form of a one legged wounded buffalo. We will try to get a few
more weeks. Did a series of 200/400/200's without a watch. Simply
working on form but both of us knowing full well how much we need the
workout. It took about 4 200's before I even loosened up. An old hill
climber on a track - oil and water. I may get my stride length from 3 to
4 inches. 🙂

I can think of so many ways to get decent workouts without going to a
track.😉

My feet have enough problems with flat, that I've been really gun shy
about using anything flatter than my flat trail. I did 2 laps of hs
track about 5 yrs ago (about when feet were worst so was just running
straights, walking curves, iirc) while waiting for pool to open (same
parking area), got bored, went on the surrounding xc trail for a couple
laps, and have never quite made it back. I had intended to go down to
local soccer field (also near a trailhead) and do a little barefoot
jogging (sans all the curves needed in my small yard) during recovery,
but never made it. Actually, even the barefoot walking in my yard was
suggesting my legs were probably more fatigued than they seemed - very
little DOMS, but just effect of toes in grass rippling up shins, etc. I
had scoped out one area last summer - the side away from all the
spectator stands - and it appeared to be glass free so was going to
check it out this year and never made it.

I'll tend to just use well-defined sections of trails and use splits for
those - generally in the 2.5-16 min range when snow free (about 1/4 mi
to 1 mi, flat to 180 ft hill, straight to some twists), depending on
section. I've considered toying around with some shorter stuff, but I
usually end up hill bounding - power / acceleration being the main goal
as opposed to training at efforts above LT.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Daniel said:

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 20:55:37 -0400, "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Parker and I were the chute at the Escarpment Race but we only had 200
with at most 4 finishing at one time. I can't speak for west coast races
but there are no chutes for trail races.

-Doug

[Speaking from my personal very limited Northern California West Coast
experience . . . ]

The Pacific Coast Trail Runs people do have a chute of sorts. There
is a big finish line banner overhead and a bunch of bright traffic
cones and plastic barrier tape to funnel runners past the race
officials. Yesterday there was a digital clock, but I don't remember
seeing that at #2 son's other trail races. Really, I think the trail
run "chute" is mostly so that when you come down off the trail to the
picnic area of the park you have *something* to orient on and aim for,
not so that they can sort out finishing-places as a huge pack of
runners all come in at once. Sunday was a large event for PC Trial
Runs -- sold out with 400 total runners for the 10K, 20K, 40K, and 50K
combined.
--
Daniel ( [email hidden] )

Thanks. I think PCTR puts on some well-respected events. They are
runners themselves and Sarah posts on another running group. I think
something like the traffic cones and barrier tape is a good idea and
faster than the setup we use with wood lathe supporting colored pennants
(like used car dealer). If the club put on more events, it would make
sense to get some. And this particular weekend is opening day of State
Fair and the local xc running teams were at an invitational meet on the
Kenai, so many things were in short supply locally - like a tarp for
registration. ("State Fair weather" usually means rain.)

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope