first time handbuilding a wheel: what spec

GazK wrote on 08/07/2006 11:17 +0100:

Quoted message said:

First problems: I keep seeing recommendations for pretty and cheap
machine-built wheels such as Shimano 105s for £100 a pair. I am pretty
sure that building to a decent spec myself is a better option, but I
need reassurance before I spend £200 or so.

For your first project you could take the machine built wheels and hand
finish them. The usual problem is not enough tension and that is a
fairly simple task to correct compared with the (still not difficult)
building from scratch.

Quoted message said:

I want a solid wheelset that will last as long as the rims without being
heavy. I think I want to go traditional 36 spoke 3 cross. Is this sensible?

Yes

Quoted message said:

Hubs - Shimano, but is Ultegra worth the extra £5 per hub, and are there
any (excuse the pun) chain reaction issues, ie I have to buy an Ultegra
cassette, Ultegra chain, Ultegra garage to put it in?

Can't say if its worth the extra without knowing what is important to
you. No there are no knock on factors unless you want to mix with Campag.

Quoted message said:

Rims - the whole world seems to rate Mavic open pros, but are there any
alternatives I should consider, and why?

You hear different views but Mavic Open Pros are Sheldon Brown's
"favourite high performance road rims" and that's good enough for me.

Quoted message said:

Spokes - DT, but are there different types? And if so, which?

There are many different DT types and many other than DT. For DT spokes
go to www.roseversand.de They sell them for a fraction of the price you
pay in the UK

Quoted message said:

I am thinking of buying the front wheel bits first to spread the cost.
Will the front be easier or is there no difference?

Yes because its not dished which means the spokes are the same length
and the spoke tensions are the same on both sides (unless you have disk
brakes).

Quoted message said:

Lastly, where is the best bike shop to phone and order the bits, in
terms of getting a good price and the right length spokes?

www.roseversand.de to order spokes, nipples and hubs (rims are much the
same price as elsewhere) and Damon Rinard's spocalc to get the right
spoke length for your hub and rim combination.
http://damonrinard.com/spocalc.htm

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

in message <[email hidden]>, GazK

(') said:

First problems: I keep seeing recommendations for pretty and cheap
machine-built wheels such as Shimano 105s for £100 a pair. I am pretty
sure that building to a decent spec myself is a better option, but I
need reassurance before I spend £200 or so.

Riding on wheels you've built yourself is a very nice feeling, and it
isn't difficult to produce good wheels. But whether it's any longer
cost-effective against quality factory built wheels I'm not certain. You
can get a pair of Mavic Ksyrium Equipe - reasonably light, very strong,
very stylish, slightly stiff for some people's taste - for £200.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
;; languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their
;; pockets for new vocabulary -- James D. Nicoll

GazK said:

Its time for me to upgrade the wheels on my £350 flat bar road bike
from the no-marks which came with it. I want to try building them
myself. My riding is 1 - 2 hour stints of fastish (15mph and rising)
fitness
cycling over rolling Wiltshire country lanes of widely variable
quality.
I ride a Vittoria Randonneur 28 on front and a slick 23 on rear, but I
might consider dropping the front to a 23 or riding both at 28 in
winter.

First problems: I keep seeing recommendations for pretty and cheap
machine-built wheels such as Shimano 105s for £100 a pair. I am pretty
sure that building to a decent spec myself is a better option, but I
need reassurance before I spend £200 or so.

With your own handbuilts, you'll have exactly what you want and you'll
know the job has been done properly. Depending on the spec, they could be
stronger and more reliable, and replacement parts could be cheaper or
easier to get hold of.

Quoted message said:

I want a solid wheelset that will last as long as the rims without
being heavy. I think I want to go traditional 36 spoke 3 cross. Is
this sensible?

Yes, although you'd probably be absolutely fine with a 32 spoke front
wheel if you didn't mind getting odd hubs and rims and wanted a slight
weight & aero advantage. Anyway, when you have the choice, anything less
than 36 rear spokes is daft for anything other than racing, in my opinion.

Quoted message said:

Hubs - Shimano, but is Ultegra worth the extra £5 per hub,

I can't remember what the differences are. Weight? Different skewer?
Different bearings?

Quoted message said:

and are
there any (excuse the pun) chain reaction issues, ie I have to buy an
Ultegra cassette, Ultegra chain, Ultegra garage to put it in?

No, you could use a 105, Tiagra or MTB cassette and chain with an Ultegra
hub, so long as it's not a 10-speed version.

Quoted message said:

Rims - the whole world seems to rate Mavic open pros, but are there
any alternatives I should consider, and why?

I'm sure there must be (possibly including DT) but I don't know enough
about any to suggest one in particular. Open Pros would be good for your
application anyway, as would one of the CXP models if you didn't mind some
more weight.

Quoted message said:

Spokes - DT, but are there different types? And if so, which?

Yes. DT Competition double butted 2/1.8/2 mm would be a commonly
available and reasonably priced safe bet. For extra reliability, you
could have DT Alpine III on the rear drive side and DT Revolution on the
rear left. (There are potential problems with Alpine III though -- please
search Google Groups for more info).

Sapim is also a good brand. Sapim Race is similar in specification and
quality to DT Competition, and Sapim Laser to DT Revolution.

Quoted message said:

I am thinking of buying the front wheel bits first to spread the cost.
Will the front be easier or is there no difference?

It's no easier (it's no more difficult to center a rear wheel despite the
dish). It could be cheaper to buy pairs of parts together: hubs are often
sold in pairs; and it saves on postage when using dealers who charge
postage.

Quoted message said:

Lastly, where is the best bike shop to phone and order the bits, in
terms of getting a good price and the right length spokes?

Use a spoke calculator for working out the lengths.

Rims & hubs: Parker International, dotBike, eBay

Spokes: Parker International, pedalon.co.uk, St John Street Cycles,
Deeside Cycles, Edinburgh Bike.

~PB

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Spokes - DT, but are there different types? And if so, which?

Yes. DT Competition double butted 2/1.8/2 mm would be a commonly
available and reasonably priced safe bet. For extra reliability, you
could have DT Alpine III on the rear drive side and DT Revolution on the
rear left. (There are potential problems with Alpine III though -- please
search Google Groups for more info).

I'll second the DT competition recommendation. I wouldn't bother with fancy
spoking arrangements though.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am thinking of buying the front wheel bits first to spread the cost.
Will the front be easier or is there no difference?

It's no easier (it's no more difficult to center a rear wheel despite the
dish). It could be cheaper to buy pairs of parts together: hubs are often
sold in pairs; and it saves on postage when using dealers who charge
postage.

Erm - IME front is easier. One significant advantage is that the front wheel
takes rather less load, so even if you don't manage to build it properly, it
probably won't matter.

(and of course if you're using a bike as a truing stand like I do, fronts
are definitely easier.)

But yes, hubs seem to come in pairs (which is why I have spare front ones
knocking around...)

cheers,
clive

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, GazK

(') said:

First problems: I keep seeing recommendations for pretty and cheap
machine-built wheels such as Shimano 105s for £100 a pair. I am pretty
sure that building to a decent spec myself is a better option, but I
need reassurance before I spend £200 or so.

Riding on wheels you've built yourself is a very nice feeling, and it
isn't difficult to produce good wheels. But whether it's any longer
cost-effective against quality factory built wheels I'm not certain. You
can get a pair of Mavic Ksyrium Equipe - reasonably light, very strong,
very stylish, slightly stiff for some people's taste - for £200.

I'm on the fence on this one, I don't reckon you can beat factory built
for price, put quite simply buying the bits seperately loses the economy
of scale.

Otoh, you get exactly what you want, and also, experience. This last
point is imho worth the money. For instance, if you bend a rim you can
rebuild it with a new rim and existing spoke and hub saving a lot of
money. Same if a hub goes (see post up there --^).

Thanks to all for the advice to buy a new cone. 5 squids later, hub is
back together and seems fine, will lace the wheel tomorrow.

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Yes, although you'd probably be absolutely fine with a 32 spoke front
wheel if you didn't mind getting odd hubs and rims and wanted a slight
weight & aero advantage.  Anyway, when you have the choice, anything
less than 36 rear spokes is daft for anything other than racing, in my
opinion.

Why, Pete? I don't think I've /ever/ had a 36 spoke wheel on one of my
bikes - not since the seventies, anyway.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Windows 95:
You, you, you! You make a grown man cry...
M. Jagger/K. Richards

in message <[email hidden]>, Tosspot

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, GazK

(') said:

First problems: I keep seeing recommendations for pretty and cheap
machine-built wheels such as Shimano 105s for £100 a pair. I am pretty
sure that building to a decent spec myself is a better option, but I
need reassurance before I spend £200 or so.

Riding on wheels you've built yourself is a very nice feeling, and it
isn't difficult to produce good wheels. But whether it's any longer
cost-effective against quality factory built wheels I'm not certain.
You can get a pair of Mavic Ksyrium Equipe - reasonably light, very
strong, very stylish, slightly stiff for some people's taste - for
£200.

I'm on the fence on this one, I don't reckon you can beat factory built
for price, put quite simply buying the bits seperately loses the
economy of scale.

Otoh, you get exactly what you want, and also, experience. This last
point is imho worth the money. For instance, if you bend a rim you can
rebuild it with a new rim and existing spoke and hub saving a lot of
money. Same if a hub goes (see post up there --^).

Yup. A more significant point is that if you buy 'designer' wheels - like
the Ksyriums I just recommended - every part of them is non-standard, and
therefore more expensive to replace.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Diplomacy, American: see Intelligence, Military

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Yes, although you'd probably be absolutely fine with a 32 spoke front
wheel if you didn't mind getting odd hubs and rims and wanted a
slight weight & aero advantage. Anyway, when you have the choice,
anything less than 36 rear spokes is daft for anything other than
racing, in my opinion.

Why, Pete? I don't think I've /ever/ had a 36 spoke wheel on one of my
bikes - not since the seventies, anyway.

Because you get a significant amount of extra strength and durability for
the cost of just a quid, 20 to 25 grams and a miniscule amount of extra
aero drag. They're easier to true with a missing spoke as well.

I reckon I would have buckled more wheels if I'd been on 32 spokes. I
have buckled 36-spoke ones so I don't want even less strength. It's even
more sensible to have 36 rear spokes now than it was in the seventies
thanks to the extra dishing required for 8, 9 and 10-speed hubs. You're
practically almost riding on just half the rear spokes, so I think of it
as 18 versus 16 spokes.

Of course you can get away with 32 for decades, but still less luck is
required with 36. For the sake of 25 grams, why not? I think it's much
better than using a beefier rim instead, which could easily weigh more
than 25g extra (with more rotational weight as well), and be much more
expensive too.

I'd only argue for 36 so strongly when there's the staight choice, which
you do have when building your own wheels. High quality 36h hubs and rims
are dead easy to get hold of. There's more of an excuse for 32 if you can
get a good ready-built wheel on special offer, I suppose.

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Yes, although you'd probably be absolutely fine with a 32 spoke front
wheel if you didn't mind getting odd hubs and rims and wanted a
slight weight & aero advantage. Anyway, when you have the choice,
anything less than 36 rear spokes is daft for anything other than
racing, in my opinion.

Why, Pete? I don't think I've /ever/ had a 36 spoke wheel on one of my
bikes - not since the seventies, anyway.

Because you get a significant amount of extra strength and durability
for the cost of just a quid, 20 to 25 grams and a miniscule amount of
extra
aero drag. They're easier to true with a missing spoke as well.

I reckon I would have buckled more wheels if I'd been on 32 spokes. I
have buckled 36-spoke ones so I don't want even less strength.

H'mmmm... I've /never/ buckled a wheel, even in crashes. I've dented
rims, but never buckled one. And it's not 'the way I build them', since
I've only done about twenty or thirty thousand miles on home-built
wheels. The overwhelming majority of my riding has been on wheels built
by other people - these days, mostly Mavic.

What are you doing to buckle wheels? Heavily loaded touring?

Quoted message said:

It's
even more sensible to have 36 rear spokes now than it was in the
seventies
thanks to the extra dishing required for 8, 9 and 10-speed hubs.

True.

Quoted message said:

You're practically almost riding on just half the rear spokes, so I
think of it as 18 versus 16 spokes.

Of course you can get away with 32 for decades, but still less luck is
required with 36. For the sake of 25 grams, why not? I think it's
much better than using a beefier rim instead, which could easily weigh
more than 25g extra (with more rotational weight as well), and be much
more expensive too.

I'd only argue for 36 so strongly when there's the staight choice,
which you do have when building your own wheels. High quality 36h hubs
and rims are dead easy to get hold of. There's more of an excuse for
32 if you can get a good ready-built wheel on special offer, I suppose.

I'm currently riding 20 spoke on the back, 18 on the front. The front
wheel that took the full impact of my 46mph crash last autumn - dented
rim but true both side to side and in runout to within a fifth of a
millimetre - was 18 spoke. And the wheelset weighs 1.41Kg, 625g front
and 785g rear, which is lighter than anything I could hand build. Mind
you, the wheels currently on my road bike are also considerably more
expensive than any home built wheels that I might conceivably build. But
even if I was hand building I'd probably use 28 hole, these days.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; It's dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
;; Voltaire RIP Dr David Kelly 1945-2004

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

I reckon I would have buckled more wheels if I'd been on 32 spokes.
I have buckled 36-spoke ones so I don't want even less strength.

H'mmmm... I've /never/ buckled a wheel, even in crashes. I've dented
rims, but never buckled one. And it's not 'the way I build them',
since I've only done about twenty or thirty thousand miles on
home-built wheels. The overwhelming majority of my riding has been on
wheels built by other people - these days, mostly Mavic.

What are you doing to buckle wheels? Heavily loaded touring?

No, running into potholes and getting side-swiped by a motorcycle, are the
last ones I can remember. Of course no wheel is immune from those sort of
things if they're bad enough, but there's a point where the strength of
the wheel does makes a difference. Spokes are less likely to break
through fatigue when you have more of them, too (of the same guage).

I haven't buckled any wheels in the last three years or so, I think due to
a combination of more care and better wheels, but still there's the real
risk of me being too stupid or unlucky one day again, so I want wheels
that are over-built for normal gentle sensible use. It's very little
"over" in terms of weight and aerodynamics, though.

/snip

Quoted message said:

I'm currently riding 20 spoke on the back, 18 on the front. The front
wheel that took the full impact of my 46mph crash last autumn - dented
rim but true both side to side and in runout to within a fifth of a
millimetre - was 18 spoke. And the wheelset weighs 1.41Kg, 625g front
and 785g rear, which is lighter than anything I could hand build. Mind
you, the wheels currently on my road bike are also considerably more
expensive than any home built wheels that I might conceivably build.

I assume, to make up for the minimal number of spokes, they have stronger
rims and spokes than would be used in very light handbuilt wheels, so
we're not comparing apples with apples. In any case, it can't be denied
that when all else is equal, more spokes make a stronger wheel, and wheels
often could do with being stronger or more reliable. For every experience
like yours, there's one where the wheel has failed in some slightly/very
different incident.

Quoted message said:

But even if I was hand building I'd probably use 28 hole, these days.

I might use fewer spokes if I had someone standing by to rescue me at all
times, but I'll continue with 32 or 36 front and 36 rear for the time
being.

These are the actual weights of my relatively cheap Open Pro/Chorus wheels
(without skewers, for fair comparison with factory wheels that don't
include skewers either) :
Front 32h: 744g, Rear 36h: 946g. That's only half a bottle of
water heavier than your wheels in total. They could be lighter still with
skinnier spokes.

But this is getting away from the point: that 36 spoke wheels are stronger
than 32 spoke wheels, and there very little point in *not* having those
extra four rear spokes. I can't think of any other way to add so much
reliability to a bike for so little weight and cost. I /can/ think of
lots of ways of saving 25 grams that would have less effect on reliability
than doing without those four spokes. So I think it makes sense to to put
the idea to the bottom of the weight-weeny things-to-do list. Chop a bit
off the bottom of your seatpost first!

~PB

"GazK" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Its time for me to upgrade the wheels on my £350 flat bar road bike from
the no-marks which came with it. I want to try building them myself. My
riding is 1 - 2 hour stints of fastish (15mph and rising) fitness cycling
over rolling Wiltshire country lanes of widely variable quality. I ride a
Vittoria Randonneur 28 on front and a slick 23 on rear, but I might
consider dropping the front to a 23 or riding both at 28 in winter.

First problems: I keep seeing recommendations for pretty and cheap
machine-built wheels such as Shimano 105s for £100 a pair. I am pretty
sure that building to a decent spec myself is a better option, but I need
reassurance before I spend £200 or so.

I want a solid wheelset that will last as long as the rims without being
heavy. I think I want to go traditional 36 spoke 3 cross. Is this
sensible?

A friend of mine just bought a pair of these;

http://www.cyclebasket.com/products.php?plid=m9b0s582p1410

They are very nice wheels. I agree that's it's satisfying to build your own
wheels but at this price and for the quality you probably can't do better.

The guy who runs the shop never, ever, sells rubbish.

John

Quoted message said:

A friend of mine just bought a pair of these;

http://www.cyclebasket.com/products.php?plid=m9b0s582p1410

They are very nice wheels. I agree that's it's satisfying to build your own
wheels but at this price and for the quality you probably can't do better.

The guy who runs the shop never, ever, sells rubbish.

John

Yeah but these are pure road bike wheels. You should see some of the
roads I cycle on; they're barely roads. And thats not to mention the
towpaths. 16 spokes up front? I want em light but not so much that I'm
spending another £100 in a couple of years.

GazK said:

Quoted message said:

A friend of mine just bought a pair of these;

http://www.cyclebasket.com/products.php?plid=m9b0s582p1410

They are very nice wheels. I agree that's it's satisfying to build
your own wheels but at this price and for the quality you probably
can't do better.

The guy who runs the shop never, ever, sells rubbish.

Quoted message said:

Yeah but these are pure road bike wheels. You should see some of the
roads I cycle on; they're barely roads. And thats not to mention the
towpaths. 16 spokes up front? I want em light but not so much that I'm
spending another £100 in a couple of years.

They're not that light anyway. Heavier than my 32/36 spoke set.

~PB

Thanks for all the responses - they have confirmed that I am on the
right lines. A couple of extra questions:

1) I have just weighed my front wheel and I am disappointed that it
weighs about 950g. I say disappointed, because my open pro/ultegra 36
spoke front combo comes in at 817g, according to my calcs. Should I
would expect more of a difference, or is it increased reliability I am
buying?

2) I am also dismayed to discover that my rear fork is 140mm over
locknuts. How do I fit a standard 130mm hub on? Spacers presumably, but
where and what does it do to the dishing and stability of the wheel?

TIA

Gaz

GazK said:

Thanks for all the responses - they have confirmed that I am on the
right lines. A couple of extra questions:

1) I have just weighed my front wheel and I am disappointed that it
weighs about 950g. I say disappointed, because my open pro/ultegra 36
spoke front combo comes in at 817g, according to my calcs. Should I
would expect more of a difference, or is it increased reliability I am
buying?

That is the sort of weight difference I'd expect between a OP/Ultegra and
a "no mark" front wheel, as you described it. Welcome to the expensive
and somewhat disappointing world of Upgradeland. Seriously, that's not a
bad saving for a front wheel, considering it will be a sensible one.

It may well be more reliable, but then even basic cheapo machine-built
*front* wheels tend to be OK enough. It's the rears where there's more of
a difference in that department.

Quoted message said:

2) I am also dismayed to discover that my rear fork is 140mm over
locknuts.

Are you measuring inside the dropouts?

...... www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_sp-ss.html#spacing

Quoted message said:

How do I fit a standard 130mm hub on? Spacers presumably,
but where and what does it do to the dishing and stability of the
wheel?

I'm not sure about that, but wouldn't a 135mm hub be an option? Shimano
MTB hubs do take road cassettes.

~PB

Quoted message said:

Are you measuring inside the dropouts?

..... www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_sp-ss.html#spacing

Quoted message said:

How do I fit a standard 130mm hub on? Spacers presumably,
but where and what does it do to the dishing and stability of the
wheel?

I'm not sure about that, but wouldn't a 135mm hub be an option? Shimano
MTB hubs do take road cassettes.

~PB

Pete,

On closer inspection you are right, it looks like 135. I will have the
wheel off at the weekend to confirm it. This leaves me with a dilemma.
According to Sheldon, I could still fit a 130 road hub with a spacer and
an MTB-length skewer. So my options are:

2 x Ultegra - £59
2 x 105 - £38
105 front, Deore XT rear - £35
Ultegra front, Deore XT rear - £43
2 x Deore XT - £36

Argh! Too many choices. Trying to narrow it down, I would prefer to have
the same hub front and back. There is only 20g between 2 x XT and 2 x
105, so assuming there is no other significant difference, it comes down
to 2 x Ultegra vs 2 x XT.

Now, budgetary constraints and standardisation would both suggest XT is
the way to go. Thing is, I have always wanted a bit of bling, so... does
£25 extra justify Ultegra? Or will I rue road hubs in an MTB fork?

Garry

"GazK" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Argh! Too many choices. Trying to narrow it down, I would prefer to have
the same hub front and back. There is only 20g between 2 x XT and 2 x 105,
so assuming there is no other significant difference, it comes down to 2 x
Ultegra vs 2 x XT.

Now, budgetary constraints and standardisation would both suggest XT is
the way to go. Thing is, I have always wanted a bit of bling, so... does
£25 extra justify Ultegra? Or will I rue road hubs in an MTB fork?

XT is as bling as ultegra - both are second-from-top of the range. If you
want real bling, there's plenty of choice in the MTB world :-)

I would go for the hub which fits your frame - there's no point in faffing
around with spacers. XT is an annoyingly sensible choice. It might look
better in black.

cheers,
clive

in message <[email hidden]>, GazK

(') said:

2 x Ultegra - £59
2 x 105 - £38
105 front, Deore XT rear - £35
Ultegra front, Deore XT rear - £43
2 x Deore XT - £36

Or the good stuff:

Campagnolo:
2 x Record - £146 (28, 32 or 36 hole, Campag fit only)
all the way down to
2 x Xenon - £32 (32 or 36 hole, Campag fit only)

Hope:
2 x Mono Road - £120 (28, 32 or 36 hole, Shimano fit only)
Mono Road front, Bulb rear - £180 (32 or 36 hole, Shimano fit only,
rear not available in non-disk form)
Mono Road front, Mono MTB rear - £125 (28, 32 or 36 hole, Shimano fit
only)
Mono Road front, XC rear - £125 (28, 32 or 36 hole, Shimano fit only,
rear not available in non-disk form)

DT Swiss:
2 x Hugi System, road rear - £285 (28 or 32 hole, Campag or Shimano fit)
2 x Hugi System, MTB rear - £295 (28 or 32 hole, Shimano fit only,
rear not available in non-disk form)

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

---===***<<< This space to let! >>>***===---
Yes! You, too, can SPAM in the Famous Brooke Rotating .sig!
---===***<<< Only $300 per line >>>***===---

Simon Brooke said:

Or the good stuff:

Campagnolo:
2 x Record - £146 (28, 32 or 36 hole, Campag fit only)
all the way down to
2 x Xenon - £32 (32 or 36 hole, Campag fit only)

Rears are 130mm only, difficult or impossible to convert to 135mm

~PB