first time handbuilding a wheel: what spec

[Pete Biggs]

GazK wrote:
> On closer inspection you are right, it looks like 135. I will have the
> wheel off at the weekend to confirm it. This leaves me with a dilemma.
> According to Sheldon, I could still fit a 130 road hub with a spacer
> and an MTB-length skewer.

I think you'll have a stronger wheel with 135: flanges further apart, more
supported axle.

~PB

 

[GazK]

Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, GazK
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>> 2 x Ultegra - £59
>> 2 x 105 - £38
>> 105 front, Deore XT rear - £35
>> Ultegra front, Deore XT rear - £43
>> 2 x Deore XT - £36
>
> Or the good stuff:
>
> Campagnolo:
> 2 x Record - £146 (28, 32 or 36 hole, Campag fit only)
> all the way down to
> 2 x Xenon - £32 (32 or 36 hole, Campag fit only)
>
> Hope:
> 2 x Mono Road - £120 (28, 32 or 36 hole, Shimano fit only)
> Mono Road front, Bulb rear - £180 (32 or 36 hole, Shimano fit only,
> rear not available in non-disk form)
> Mono Road front, Mono MTB rear - £125 (28, 32 or 36 hole, Shimano fit
> only)
> Mono Road front, XC rear - £125 (28, 32 or 36 hole, Shimano fit only,
> rear not available in non-disk form)
>
> DT Swiss:
> 2 x Hugi System, road rear - £285 (28 or 32 hole, Campag or Shimano fit)
> 2 x Hugi System, MTB rear - £295 (28 or 32 hole, Shimano fit only,
> rear not available in non-disk form)
>

Simon,

Sounds good. Or perhaps those platinum hubs hand-rolled by Chilean
peasants in the Andes. You offering to pay? ;-)

 

[GazK]

Pete Biggs wrote:
> GazK wrote:
>> On closer inspection you are right, it looks like 135. I will have the
>> wheel off at the weekend to confirm it. This leaves me with a dilemma.
>> According to Sheldon, I could still fit a 130 road hub with a spacer
>> and an MTB-length skewer.
>
> I think you'll have a stronger wheel with 135: flanges further apart, more
> supported axle.
>
> ~PB
>
>

Are the flanges further apart though? Compare

http://tinyurl.com/oxsx5

with

http://tinyurl.com/nj8zl

is the black spacer on the left of the XT hub not taking up the extra 5mm?

Having said that, I think your advice is sound and it just happens to
save me £30, so I will go with XT. Now, silver or black on an all-black
bike? I think silver would look cool, and seems easier to get (at least
on roseversand.de).

 

[Pete Biggs]

GazK wrote:

> Are the flanges further apart though? Compare
>
> http://tinyurl.com/oxsx5
>
> with
>
> http://tinyurl.com/nj8zl
>
> is the black spacer on the left of the XT hub not taking up the extra
> 5mm?

I can't tell from the pictures, the different angles don't help. The
Ultegra looks like it has a fair amount of spacers as well.

"Flange distance - left" is the same according to
www.dtswiss.com/spokescalc/Calculator.aspx , but "flange distance - right"
of the 135mm is 2mm less.

I think that's the distance from centre of rim to right-hand flange.

So does that mean there's 3mm of difference with the spacers to left of
hub, and the flanges are 2mm further apart? (Every little helps). Or
perhaps really 2.5mm of both?

The black thing is a rubber seal, by the way. One little extra advantage
the MTB hubs have.

~PB

 

[Clive George]

"Pete Biggs" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...

> The black thing is a rubber seal, by the way. One little extra advantage
> the MTB hubs have.

Can be a disadvantage - it will add a tiny amount more drag. If I were
racing at a high level I'd consider that a factor.

But for the OP I suspect the advantages (better sealing, hub actually fits
bike) will outweigh the disadvantages - he wouldn't notice the drag (heck, I
don't notice if my SON dynamo is on or not )

cheers,
clive

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, GazK
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>> in message <[email protected]>, GazK
>> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>>
>>> 2 x Ultegra - £59
>>> 2 x 105 - £38
>>> 105 front, Deore XT rear - £35
>>> Ultegra front, Deore XT rear - £43
>>> 2 x Deore XT - £36
>>
>> Or the good stuff:
>>
>> Campagnolo:
>> 2 x Record - £146 (28, 32 or 36 hole, Campag fit only)
>> all the way down to
>> 2 x Xenon - £32 (32 or 36 hole, Campag fit only)
>>
>> Hope:
>> 2 x Mono Road - £120 (28, 32 or 36 hole, Shimano fit only)
>> Mono Road front, Bulb rear - £180 (32 or 36 hole, Shimano fit only,
>> rear not available in non-disk form)
>> Mono Road front, Mono MTB rear - £125 (28, 32 or 36 hole, Shimano fit
>> only)
>> Mono Road front, XC rear - £125 (28, 32 or 36 hole, Shimano fit only,
>> rear not available in non-disk form)
>>
>> DT Swiss:
>> 2 x Hugi System, road rear - £285 (28 or 32 hole, Campag or Shimano
>> fit) 2 x Hugi System, MTB rear - £295 (28 or 32 hole, Shimano fit
>> only,
>> rear not available in non-disk form)
>
> Sounds good. Or perhaps those platinum hubs hand-rolled by Chilean
> peasants in the Andes. You offering to pay? ;-)

Just exploring the options for you...

If I make myself a set of new wheels this winter, the front hub will be
one of these
http://www.kinetics.org.uk/html/son_hub_dynamo.shtml
and the rear will probably be one of these:
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/Default.aspx?ProdID=5360007752

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

The Conservative Party now has the support of a smaller proportion of
the electorate in Scotland than Sinn Fein have in Northern Ireland.

 

[GazK]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> Just exploring the options for you...
>
> If I make myself a set of new wheels this winter, the front hub will be
> one of these
> http://www.kinetics.org.uk/html/son_hub_dynamo.shtml
> and the rear will probably be one of these:
> http://www.wiggle.co.uk/Default.aspx?ProdID=5360007752
>

Simon,

Thats lovely kit, esp the camag. But I couldnt justify that kind of
money on a £350 Ral**** bike, even if I didnt have my wife to answer to.

 

[GazK]

Pete Biggs wrote:
> GazK wrote:
>
>> Are the flanges further apart though? Compare
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/oxsx5
>>
>> with
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/nj8zl
>>
>> is the black spacer on the left of the XT hub not taking up the extra
>> 5mm?
>
> I can't tell from the pictures, the different angles don't help. The
> Ultegra looks like it has a fair amount of spacers as well.
>
> "Flange distance - left" is the same according to
> www.dtswiss.com/spokescalc/Calculator.aspx , but "flange distance - right"
> of the 135mm is 2mm less.
>
> I think that's the distance from centre of rim to right-hand flange.
>
> So does that mean there's 3mm of difference with the spacers to left of
> hub, and the flanges are 2mm further apart? (Every little helps). Or
> perhaps really 2.5mm of both?
>
> The black thing is a rubber seal, by the way. One little extra advantage
> the MTB hubs have.
>
> ~PB
>
>

Just took my wheel off, and discovered that;

- the hub is 135 over locknuts;

- the dropouts are 130 without the wheel in.

Is this wise on an ally frame? It doesn't feel especially hard to get
the wheel back in, but you definitely have to pull the dropouts out a
little. Should I stick with my new 135 hub? I would be concerned about
chainline on my triple if I moved to 130.

 

[Jim Price]

GazK wrote:

> Just took my wheel off, and discovered that;
>
> - the hub is 135 over locknuts;
>
> - the dropouts are 130 without the wheel in.

D'oh!

> Is this wise on an ally frame? It doesn't feel especially hard to get
> the wheel back in, but you definitely have to pull the dropouts out a
> little. Should I stick with my new 135 hub? I would be concerned about
> chainline on my triple if I moved to 130.

The manufacturer is going to say no because they simply won't want to
warranty it when used with a hub it wasn't designed for. In practice, it
probably just reduces the life of the frame a bit if the rear triangle
fails first. Being aluminium you are not going to know what size that
bit is going to be. What frame is it? Does it have welded cross pieces
in between the dropouts and seat tube? How long and why have you been
riding it with a 135 hub? How much and what sort of riding do you do?
How much does the frame weigh?
The answers to these questions would give some indication as to whether
continuing to ride it like that is a reasonable idea, but you are going
to have to look for cracks regularly. The good news is that a road frame
with cross pieces in the rear triangle is unlikely to have a
particularly dangerous failure mode at the back end if you don't miss
any cracks when they first form. Not for those of a nervous disposition
I suppose.

--

JimP

" " - John Cage

 

[Pete Biggs]

GazK wrote:

> Just took my wheel off, and discovered that;
>
> - the hub is 135 over locknuts;
>
> - the dropouts are 130 without the wheel in.
>
> Is this wise on an ally frame? It doesn't feel especially hard to get
> the wheel back in, but you definitely have to pull the dropouts out a
> little. Should I stick with my new 135 hub?

I would look into what hub the frame is designed for, and how much
difference is common with ally frames. Sorry I don't know the answers to
these questions (although 5mm doesn't sound right to me).

> I would be concerned about
> chainline on my triple if I moved to 130.

Modern road triple chainsets & bottom brackets are designed for 130mm
hubs, so it should be no big problem if you can fit the default BB the
chainset is designed to work with.

But if you're not happy with the chainline, there might be clearance for a
shorter BB, and to help a tiny bit more, a slim spacer* could be put
behind the cassette if there's clearance in the frame for a fatter
cassette -- make from 0.5mm Marchisio shim(s).

Choose the chainrings and sprockets with the chainline in mind. The
cassette being futher in isn't bad if you'll be using the middle chainring
+ smaller rear sprockets most of the time, for example.

~PB

 

[GazK]

Jim Price wrote:
> GazK wrote:
>
>> Just took my wheel off, and discovered that;
>>
>> - the hub is 135 over locknuts;
>>
>> - the dropouts are 130 without the wheel in.
>
> D'oh!
>
>> Is this wise on an ally frame? It doesn't feel especially hard to get
>> the wheel back in, but you definitely have to pull the dropouts out a
>> little. Should I stick with my new 135 hub? I would be concerned about
>> chainline on my triple if I moved to 130.
>
> The manufacturer is going to say no because they simply won't want to
> warranty it when used with a hub it wasn't designed for.

Hub is stock item sold with the bike. So your warranty argument does not
apply.

In practice, it
> probably just reduces the life of the frame a bit if the rear triangle
> fails first. Being aluminium you are not going to know what size that
> bit is going to be. What frame is it?

Raleigh - http://www.raleighbikes.com/cyclesproductdetails.aspx?ID=7

Does it have welded cross pieces
> in between the dropouts and seat tube?

No, the seat stays are formed of two triangular sections welded back-to
back until just above the wheel, where they split and continue down the
wheel, becoming circular section as they do so.

How long and why have you been
> riding it with a 135 hub?

3 months, hub was stock item on the bike as purchased.

How much and what sort of riding do you do?
> How much does the frame weigh?

God knows. Medium for that type of bike I suppose.

> The answers to these questions would give some indication as to whether
> continuing to ride it like that is a reasonable idea, but you are going
> to have to look for cracks regularly.

If it cracks, I will have it replaced under the lifetime frame warranty.
The bike was sold with a 135 hub.

The good news is that a road frame
> with cross pieces in the rear triangle is unlikely to have a
> particularly dangerous failure mode at the back end if you don't miss
> any cracks when they first form. Not for those of a nervous disposition
> I suppose.
>

 

[Pete Biggs]

I scribbled:

> Choose the chainrings and sprockets with the chainline in mind. The
> cassette being futher in isn't bad if you'll be using the middle
> chainring + smaller rear sprockets most of the time, for example.

Last time I mentioned this, a point was made about smaller sprockets
wearing out faster than larger ones. That's true, but putting it into
perspective, the "smaller" sprockets won't be all that small if the top
one is 13t.

~PB

 

[Jim Price]

GazK wrote:
> Jim Price wrote:
>> The manufacturer is going to say no because they simply won't want to
>> warranty it when used with a hub it wasn't designed for.
>
> Hub is stock item sold with the bike. So your warranty argument does not
> apply.

Um, that'll be their warranty argument, not mine.

> If it cracks, I will have it replaced under the lifetime frame warranty.
> The bike was sold with a 135 hub.

In that case take it back now and get it replaced with one which wasn't
made on a Friday afternoon or specced with the wrong hubs. 2mm out is
just about acceptable. 5mm out is a lemon.

Good luck with the wheelbuilding.
--

JimP

" " - John Cage

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, GazK
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Is this wise on an ally frame?

It's a widely accepted belief that this is very unwise with an aluminium
frame. Allegedly, aluminium is liable to crack when forced in this way
for a long time. However, as I've always believed that, I haven't tried
it, and TBH I've never seen a frame that had failed for this reason.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Do not sail on uphill water.
- Bill Lee

 

[GazK]

Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, GazK
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>> Is this wise on an ally frame?
>
> It's a widely accepted belief that this is very unwise with an aluminium
> frame. Allegedly, aluminium is liable to crack when forced in this way
> for a long time. However, as I've always believed that, I haven't tried
> it, and TBH I've never seen a frame that had failed for this reason.
>

Email just sent to Raleigh:

"I bought an M-Trax X3 in March 2006. Other than having different tyres
fitted, the bike was to your standard specification. While I have
generally been happy with it, I have recently been considering replacing
the wheels with custom-made ones. Knowing that distances between
dropouts vary, I removed the rear wheel to check the Over Locknut (OLN)
distance.

It turns out that the OLN distance of the wheel is 135mm, but when I
measured the dropout separation it is 130mm. This is backed up by the
fact the I have to pull the dropouts apart slightly to refit the wheel.

Everything I have read about Aluminium frames says that, unlike steel,
they should not be forced in this way, and the metal will fatigue and
crack over a long period of use.

I would like reassurance on your use of MTB (135) hubs in an aluminium
road (130) frame. I am concerned that the frame may fail some way down
the line, and while I know you provide a lifetime warranty on the frame,
I would prefer not to have to use it."

I will keep you posted on any reply.