Flip chain: double life

Wayne Pein <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life."

If that is true, you can probably increase chain life even more by regularly flipping your chain
over. People who clean their chain by removing it and soaking it (and reinstalling it randomly one
way or the other) have been doing this for years.

"Wayne Pein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

from velonews.com

Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

Any credence to this crud?

Flipping it doesn't change the pitch, and that's the only important thing.

Quoted message said:

Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

I don't understand this. We've long-ago determined that chains don't stretch as in the metal
elongating; rather, the internal parts of the chain wear, producing slack that elongates the chain
as a whole. What is it about this wear that would be changed by flipping the chain?

At its simplest, a chain displays its wear when you lay it out on a table and measure its length.
Obviously, it doesn't matter which side you lay it on, the length is the same. So if flipping a
chain over improves chain life, there's an implication that an elongated chain is not the only thing
affecting performance.

There's also a logical problem in Wayne's statement, since flipping a chain over, half-way through
its wear cycle, should at best allow it to go 1.5 times normal life (since in its flipped-over
state, you can't do better than it would starting from new, unless flipping it somehow rejuvenates
it into something better than new!).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

"Wayne Pein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

from velonews.com

Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

Any credence to this crud?

Wayne

Wayne Pein said:

from velonews.com

Quoted message said:

Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

Wayne Stetina said that??!! Shimano engineers discovered this by accident? Wow! I guess April 1st is
closer than I thought!

Art Harris

What threw me in Wayne's statement, besides "double your chain life" is: " In other words, your
chain will now be turned inside out."??? -tom

"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't understand this. We've long-ago determined that chains don't stretch as in the metal
elongating; rather, the internal parts of the

chain

Quoted message said:

wear, producing slack that elongates the chain as a whole. What is it

about

Quoted message said:

this wear that would be changed by flipping the chain?

At its simplest, a chain displays its wear when you lay it out on a table and measure its length.
Obviously, it doesn't matter which side you lay

it

Quoted message said:

on, the length is the same. So if flipping a chain over improves chain life, there's an
implication that an elongated chain is not the only thing affecting performance.

There's also a logical problem in Wayne's statement, since flipping a

chain

Quoted message said:

over, half-way through its wear cycle, should at best allow it to go 1.5 times normal life (since
in its flipped-over state, you can't do better

than

Quoted message said:

it would starting from new, unless flipping it somehow rejuvenates it into something better
than new!).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

"Wayne Pein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

from velonews.com

Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway
worn out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your
chain will now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears,
and the derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says
that Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

Any credence to this crud?

Wayne

"Wayne Pein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

from velonews.com

Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

Any credence to this crud?

Wayne

Good example why one should not believe all that is in print. My chain rollers turn. My derailleur
"laterally bends the chain the opposite direction" already, since I shift through the gears in both
directions. Chains don't "stretch" anyway. They elongate due to wear on the rivets mostly.

Turning the chain around and allowing the non-worn side of the rivets to wear will double the
service life. (see below)

Gotcha! It won't really.

Cal

"Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wayne Pein said:

from velonews.com

Quoted message said:

Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway
worn out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your
chain will now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears,
and the derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says
that Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

Wayne Stetina said that??!! Shimano engineers discovered this by accident? Wow! I guess April 1st
is closer than I thought!

Art Harris

Party-pooper.

Cal

"Wayne Pein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

from velonews.com

Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

Any credence to this crud?

Wayne

I was skeptical and about to post some worthless, joking [censored] like I always do but then I began to
think about it and it does make sense. See, the wear really occurs as the chain bends over the top
of the cassette cog and then over the top of the chainring. THis is where all the stress is. If you
flip your chain over, these same two spots are using the reverse side of the chain. They would share
some of the worn area but for the most part fresh chain is being used. Yes, I believe Wayne @
Shimano has a valid point, Wayne.

Hmm, I guess this means that I've tossed several perfectly good chains.

Dave

Wayne Pein said:

from velonews.com

Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

That is 100.0% correct about the rollers, and the same principle applies to tires. Unless you ride
backwards frequently, as on a unicycle, you're only wearing out the fronts of your tires.

I flip my front wheel around when the tire appears to be halfway worn out, and I am able to ride
twice as long.

I would flip the rear as well but hey I'm not stupid - I would need to move the drivetrain to the
left side and that of course is not possible.

-T.Borek, BSME

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Wayne Pein
from velonews.com

Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

Any credence to this crud?

Wayne

Dear Wayne,

Oh, what a fool I've been!

By heavens, next time that I measure my
chain to see if it's worn out, I'll try measuring
it from the other end.

Carl Fogel

"carlfogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wayne Pein said:

from velonews.com Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it
is only halfway worn out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In
other words, your chain will now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now
contact the gears, and the derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the

opposite

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

direction. Stetina says that Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.
Any credence to this crud? Wayne

Dear Wayne,

Oh, what a fool I've been!

By heavens, next time that I measure my chain to see if it's worn out, I'll try measuring it from
the other end.

Carl Fogel

It would be interesting to see if the chain measures different lengths by seeing how far each side
wrap around a cylinder.

Dave

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Onefred
"carlfogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wayne Pein said:

from velonews.com Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it
is only halfway worn out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In
other words, your chain will now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now
contact the gears, and the derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the

opposite

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

direction. Stetina says that Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.
Any credence to this crud? Wayne

Dear Wayne,

Oh, what a fool I've been!

By heavens, next time that I measure my chain to see if it's worn out, I'll try measuring it from
the other end.

Carl Fogel

It would be interesting to see if the chain measures different lengths by seeing how far each side
wrap around a cylinder.

Dave

Dear Dave,

I could measure no difference when I looped
my handy badly worn chain (about 1.4%)
both ways around the base of a 36-inch
circumference cable drum on a flat surface.

The marks made opposite the center of the
start and finish pins still matched as closely
as I could align them.

This is unsurprising. Rollers presumably roll.

It seems unlikely that any difference in length
could be observed by wrapping the chain around
gears, since the gear teeth remain an inch apart,
even during wear.

Carl Fogel

carlfogel said:

"This is unsurprising. Rollers presumably roll."

Maybe with an poorly oiled chain they don't roll.
Anyone got a neglected chain they can measure both ways?

The pins don't roll, so one would expect more wear on one side.
Since the pins are made of harder materials though, it would seem the chain has long since passed its useful life before measurable differences appear.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by meb
carlfogel said:

"This is unsurprising. Rollers presumably roll."

Maybe with an poorly oiled chain they don't roll.
Anyone got a neglected chain they can measure both ways?

The pins don't roll, so one would expect more wear on one side.
Since the pins are made of harder materials though, it would seem the chain has long since passed its useful life before measurable differences appear.

Dear Meb,

A chain with any rollers that fail to roll under the
urging of your finger-tip is presumably a chain
that needs to be replaced.

Worn rollers roll more easily, not less--indeed,
they rattle.

It would seem hopeless to try to extend the life
of a chain whose rollers are rusted solid by flipping
it, reversing it, cleaning it, or praying to strange gods.

Carl Fogel

Carl Fogel said:

"A chain with any rollers that fail to roll under the
urging of your finger-tip is presumably a chain
that needs to be replaced."

Definitely-but rusty chains exist on rideable bikes.

"Worn rollers roll more easily, not less"

Not necessarily under tension, and particularly if rusty or dirty.

"--indeed, they rattle." Yep.

"It would seem hopeless to try to extend the life
of a chain whose rollers are rusted solid by flipping
it, reversing it, cleaning it, or praying to strange gods."

The OP's chain guru seems to differ on all counts.

Since we've exhausted practical scenarios, let's see if there is a grain of validity in some scenario of dubious practicallity before we dismiss the hypothesis as bunk.
😉

24 Feb 2004 19:16:41 GMT Wayne Pein said:

from velonews.com

Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

Sounds pretty unlikely to me. The wear in a bike chain does not occur where the sprocket teeth
contact it.

It occurs between the rivets and the bushings inside, as a result of the tension in the chainwhile
the chain is bending. While the bending would be in different directions, leading to slight offset
in the wear patch, I would expect the difference to be slight, and certainly not a factor of 2.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden] Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

I agree. I suspect if you flip the chain, the non-worn side of the rivets will, in effect, "tighten"
the chain back to new length (12 inches rivet to rivet).

--
--------------------------
Andre Charlebois BPE, MCSE4.0, CNA, A+ webmaster for Triathlon New Brunswick www.TriNB.com "onefred"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"carlfogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wayne Pein said:

from velonews.com Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when
it is only halfway worn out and flip it over," he says, "you

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

double your chain life." In other words, your chain will now be

turned

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the

gears,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and the derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the

opposite

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

direction. Stetina says that Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.
Any credence to this crud? Wayne

Dear Wayne,

Oh, what a fool I've been!

By heavens, next time that I measure my chain to see if it's worn out, I'll try measuring it
from the other end.

Carl Fogel

It would be interesting to see if the chain measures different lengths by seeing how far each side
wrap around a cylinder.

Dave

MikeJ-<< There's also a logical problem in Wayne's statement.

Careful or you won't get a Xmas card from shimano USA next year. >><BR><BR>

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"carlfogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Onefred said:

"carlfogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:XUS_-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden]:[email hidden]-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

etserver.com...

Quoted message said:

Wayne Pein wrote:
> from velonews.com Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says,

"If

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn out and flip

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other

words,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> your chain will now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact
> the gears, and the derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the

opposite

Quoted message said:

> direction. Stetina says that Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by
> accident. Any credence to this crud? Wayne

Dear Wayne,

Oh, what a fool I've been!

By heavens, next time that I measure my chain to see if it's worn

out,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'll try measuring it from the other end.

Carl Fogel

It would be interesting to see if the chain measures different lengths by seeing how far each
side wrap around a cylinder. Dave

Dear Dave,

I could measure no difference when I looped my handy badly worn chain (about 1.4%) both ways
around the base of a 36-inch circumference cable drum on a flat surface.

The marks made opposite the center of the start and finish pins still matched as closely as I
could align them.

This is unsurprising. Rollers presumably roll.

It seems unlikely that any difference in length could be observed by wrapping the chain around
gears, since the gear teeth remain an inch apart, even during wear.

Carl Fogel

But Carl, Wayne never said to use a badly worn chain, only one that's "halfway" worn. To me this
means a slightly worn chain that is still quite useable. Using a badly worn chain I don't doubt
your findings.

Dave