Food safety

Anthony said:

There is a constant drumbeat of warnings about food to avoid, for
example raw eggs and oysters, meat which has not been cooked to near
destruction, fish which may contain mercury and so on. Yet the odd
thing is that nowhere have I found a warning against pre-ground meat
although in the stories one reads it often seems to be ecoli infected
hamburger which is being recalled.

I've looked (not too diligently, I admit) for stats on the subject but
they seem rather thin on the ground and often are agenda driven, for
example linking an increase in genetically modified foods to an
increase in the incidence of food poisoning. But overall the problem
seems to be quite minor, with about 5,000 deaths annually in the US,
compared to about 40,000 road deaths (with presumably an even larger
number of serious injuries).

So I've decided to maintain the practices of a lifetime and continue to
eat eggs, beef and seafood all the way from raw to well done, but to
continue to cook chicken and pork to the recommended minimum
temperatures. And to be sure to fasten my seat belt.

I'm with you on every point except the pork part. You don't have to
cook pork to death these days. Now, I don't like it rare, but medium
to medium well can be nice. The concern used to be trichinosis, but I
don't think that's an issue anymore. I've eaten raw beef 1000+ times,
and have never noticed ill effects. I nearly always make eggs lightly
basted. The goal is getting the white 100% hard, while leaving the
yolk as runny as possible. Using jumbo size eggs helps.

--Bryan

"Andy" <q> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Well, that would be one way of dealing with it. I wonder, though, if
some people would be incapable of understanding how much equipment
cleanup would be needed, and end up creating more risk than if they'd
just bought a box of frozen hamburger patties.

Who buys frozen hamburger patties, or fresh, without understanding the
bacteria risk of each if undercooked? Don't worry about other people being
incapable, they're not your concern. If you caa clean a frying pan, you
can
certainly clean a meat grinder (counter top or mixer attachment) just as
easily.

That was the dumbest post I've read in ages.

Andy

You apparently have a very limited realm of experience with different types
of people. Let's address your comments into pieces, to help you.

1) Who doesn't understand the risk? People who seem to live in caves, and
are pathetically unaware of what you and I have seen a million times in the
news. Do you ever wonder how there could be anyone in this country who opens
mysterious e-mail attachments?

2) I can imagine almost any mechanical device. I should've been an inventor.
But, try as I might, I can't imagine a meat grinder whose parts are as
easily accessible as the two sides of a frying pan.

Quoted message said:

You make the argument for grinding your own meat.

Grinding your own has some big advantages over store bought ground meats,
but that in itself will not guarantee safety if cooked rare. The center
under cooked (rare) portion of a patty, can only be as germ free as the
uncooked outsides of the piece of meat is before grinding. And when you buy
a piece of meat to be ground, you are again trusting in the butcher/merchant
to handle it properly. Also, such meat is easily contaminated if you are not
careful with it in your kitchen.

All that said, I eat um rare all the time. Also eat lots of oysters, and I
love a good Caesar salad made the original way, with a raw egg. Living on
the wild side eh?

Larry TO

"LT" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You make the argument for grinding your own meat.

Grinding your own has some big advantages over store bought ground meats,
but that in itself will not guarantee safety if cooked rare. The center
under cooked (rare) portion of a patty, can only be as germ free as the
uncooked outsides of the piece of meat is before grinding. And when you
buy
a piece of meat to be ground, you are again trusting in the
butcher/merchant
to handle it properly. Also, such meat is easily contaminated if you are
not
careful with it in your kitchen.

All that said, I eat um rare all the time. Also eat lots of oysters, and I
love a good Caesar salad made the original way, with a raw egg. Living on
the wild side eh?

Larry TO

It also depends on your age and your health in general. Salmonella doesn't
usually kill healthy people, but sometimes....ya know. So, you weigh the
risks based on your situation. If it turns out you were wrong, you sue the
store that sold you the meat grinder. :-)

Default User said:

Anthony said:

There is a constant drumbeat of warnings about food to avoid, for
example raw eggs and oysters, meat which has not been cooked to near
destruction, fish which may contain mercury and so on. Yet the odd
thing is that nowhere have I found a warning against pre-ground meat
although in the stories one reads it often seems to be ecoli infected
hamburger which is being recalled.

Where have you been? All I hear about is ground beef. Lots of
restaurants won't serve hamburgers less done than medium.

I wouldn't patronize such restaurants.

Quoted message said:

Brian

--Bryan

In article <[email hidden]>,

JoeSpareBedroom said:

"Anthony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There is a constant drumbeat of warnings about food to avoid, for
example raw eggs and oysters, meat which has not been cooked to near
destruction, fish which may contain mercury and so on. Yet the odd
thing is that nowhere have I found a warning against pre-ground meat
although in the stories one reads it often seems to be ecoli infected
hamburger which is being recalled.

I've looked (not too diligently, I admit) for stats on the subject but
they seem rather thin on the ground and often are agenda driven, for
example linking an increase in genetically modified foods to an
increase in the incidence of food poisoning. But overall the problem
seems to be quite minor, with about 5,000 deaths annually in the US,
compared to about 40,000 road deaths (with presumably an even larger
number of serious injuries).

So I've decided to maintain the practices of a lifetime and continue to
eat eggs, beef and seafood all the way from raw to well done, but to
continue to cook chicken and pork to the recommended minimum
temperatures. And to be sure to fasten my seat belt.

Stats will tell you how often it happens, but they don't tell you why.
Common sense (and news stories) will explain it. With ground meat, there's
more surface area exposed to contaminants. The germs are usually present on
processing & packing machinery. As the meat is ground, the germs are
thoroughly mixed in. If you don't cook your burgers completely, they won't
heat up enough inside to kill all the germs. The same germs won't penetrate
a steak or a pork chop, unless it's been sitting around so long that
appearance or smell would hopefully alert you to the fact that it's not
worth eating.

Many grocery stores do not grind their own meat anymore. Much of it
comes pre-ground from large meat processing plants. Body parts from
hundreds of animals may be represented in one package of hamburger. If
parts from one or two animals were contaminated, the germs get mixed
into the whole batch. The real shame in this is that the skankiest
ground meat will be formed and frozen for sale to institutions like
schools. None of this lets the cook off the hook. If a facility or a
home cook does not handle food properly, the bacteria will feel free to
be fruitful and multiply.

When I was teaching intro nutrition for two years, I made a big deal
about food safety. A large number of students of traditional age are
utterly clueless about the topic. The food safety classes nicely
dovetailed with the chapter in Fast Food Nation (a required text at the
community college) about the Jack in the Box E coli 0157:H7 outbreak.

Cindy

--
C.J. Fuller

Delete the obvious to email me

JoeSpareBedroom said:

"Andy" <q> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Well, that would be one way of dealing with it. I wonder, though, if
some people would be incapable of understanding how much equipment
cleanup would be needed, and end up creating more risk than if they'd
just bought a box of frozen hamburger patties.

Who buys frozen hamburger patties, or fresh, without understanding the
bacteria risk of each if undercooked? Don't worry about other people being
incapable, they're not your concern. If you caa clean a frying pan, you
can
certainly clean a meat grinder (counter top or mixer attachment) just as
easily.

That was the dumbest post I've read in ages.

Andy

You apparently have a very limited realm of experience with different types
of people. Let's address your comments into pieces, to help you.

1) Who doesn't understand the risk? People who seem to live in caves, and
are pathetically unaware of what you and I have seen a million times in the
news. Do you ever wonder how there could be anyone in this country who opens
mysterious e-mail attachments?

2) I can imagine almost any mechanical device. I should've been an inventor.
But, try as I might, I can't imagine a meat grinder whose parts are as
easily accessible as the two sides of a frying pan.

Try imagining two large knives. The classic way of mincing meat is to
put it on a board and whack it with two knives, like playing drums.

Christine

"Old Mother Ashby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

JoeSpareBedroom said:

"Andy" <q> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

>Well, that would be one way of dealing with it. I wonder, though, if
>some people would be incapable of understanding how much equipment
>cleanup would be needed, and end up creating more risk than if they'd
>just bought a box of frozen hamburger patties.
>
Who buys frozen hamburger patties, or fresh, without understanding the
bacteria risk of each if undercooked? Don't worry about other people
being
incapable, they're not your concern. If you caa clean a frying pan, you
can
certainly clean a meat grinder (counter top or mixer attachment) just as
easily.

That was the dumbest post I've read in ages.

Andy

You apparently have a very limited realm of experience with different
types of people. Let's address your comments into pieces, to help you.

1) Who doesn't understand the risk? People who seem to live in caves, and
are pathetically unaware of what you and I have seen a million times in
the news. Do you ever wonder how there could be anyone in this country who
opens mysterious e-mail attachments?

2) I can imagine almost any mechanical device. I should've been an
inventor. But, try as I might, I can't imagine a meat grinder whose parts
are as easily accessible as the two sides of a frying pan.

Try imagining two large knives. The classic way of mincing meat is to put
it on a board and whack it with two knives, like playing drums.

Christine

That's nice, but Andy said "meat grinder", not two large knives.

"Cindy Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Many grocery stores do not grind their own meat anymore. Much of it
comes pre-ground from large meat processing plants. Body parts from
hundreds of animals may be represented in one package of hamburger. If
parts from one or two animals were contaminated, the germs get mixed
into the whole batch. The real shame in this is that the skankiest
ground meat will be formed and frozen for sale to institutions like
schools. None of this lets the cook off the hook. If a facility or a
home cook does not handle food properly, the bacteria will feel free to
be fruitful and multiply.

When I was teaching intro nutrition for two years, I made a big deal
about food safety. A large number of students of traditional age are
utterly clueless about the topic. The food safety classes nicely
dovetailed with the chapter in Fast Food Nation (a required text at the
community college) about the Jack in the Box E coli 0157:H7 outbreak.

Food safety is one thing, paranoia is another. Somewhere between the
clueless and the paranoid are the people who use reasonable safety without
living in either squalor or a hermetically sealed bubble. Restaurants and
other institutions need to enforce stricter policies because a mistake can
sicken a whole lot more people. And if the regs for those institutions are
set high enough, a small mistake won't actually sicken anyone. And they have
to assume there will be mistakes considering the skills of the employees at
many of these places.

I don't know a whole lot of people who follow restaurant health codes at
home.

By the way, what age is "traditional age"?

Donna

"D.Currie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Food safety is one thing, paranoia is another. Somewhere between the
clueless and the paranoid are the people who use reasonable safety without
living in either squalor or a hermetically sealed bubble. Restaurants and
other institutions need to enforce stricter policies because a mistake can
sicken a whole lot more people. And if the regs for those institutions are
set high enough, a small mistake won't actually sicken anyone. And they
have to assume there will be mistakes considering the skills of the
employees at many of these places.

I don't know a whole lot of people who follow restaurant health codes at
home.

By the way, what age is "traditional age"?

Donna

If you lived here, I'd bring you flowers. Common sense is intensely sexy.

On 15 May 2006 11:56:10 -0700, "Food Snob" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Where have you been? All I hear about is ground beef. Lots of
restaurants won't serve hamburgers less done than medium.

I wouldn't patronize such restaurants.

He doesn't really mean 'restaurants'. McDonalds, for example, is not
a 'restaurant'.

--
Craig

Food Snob said:

Anthony said:

There is a constant drumbeat of warnings about food to avoid, for
example raw eggs and oysters, meat which has not been cooked to near
destruction, fish which may contain mercury and so on. Yet the odd
thing is that nowhere have I found a warning against pre-ground meat
although in the stories one reads it often seems to be ecoli infected
hamburger which is being recalled.

I've looked (not too diligently, I admit) for stats on the subject but
they seem rather thin on the ground and often are agenda driven, for
example linking an increase in genetically modified foods to an
increase in the incidence of food poisoning. But overall the problem
seems to be quite minor, with about 5,000 deaths annually in the US,
compared to about 40,000 road deaths (with presumably an even larger
number of serious injuries).

So I've decided to maintain the practices of a lifetime and continue to
eat eggs, beef and seafood all the way from raw to well done, but to
continue to cook chicken and pork to the recommended minimum
temperatures. And to be sure to fasten my seat belt.

I'm with you on every point except the pork part. You don't have to
cook pork to death these days. Now, I don't like it rare, but medium
to medium well can be nice. The concern used to be trichinosis, but I
don't think that's an issue anymore. I've eaten raw beef 1000+ times,
and have never noticed ill effects. I nearly always make eggs lightly
basted. The goal is getting the white 100% hard, while leaving the
yolk as runny as possible. Using jumbo size eggs helps.

--Bryan

The raw egg thing is pretty much overblown too. The United Egg
Producers estimate that about 1 in 20,000 eggs sold in the US are
contaminated by salmonella. I haven't done the math, but I think I
would have to eat an awful lot of eggs to have a likelyhood of
encountering two such eggs in my lifetime. In any event, it sounds like
pretty good odds.

BTW, I think I cook my eggs the same way. As soon as the white is done,
I'll flip the egg just to "seal" the top side and serve. Oh...I flip
'em hard so the yolk breaks in the pan. And nothing but jumbos. Three
jumbos and a pork belly is a balanced breakfast.

b.

Craig Welch said:

On 15 May 2006 11:56:10 -0700, "Food Snob" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Where have you been? All I hear about is ground beef. Lots of
restaurants won't serve hamburgers less done than medium.

I wouldn't patronize such restaurants.

He doesn't really mean 'restaurants'. McDonalds, for example, is not
a 'restaurant'.

This place http://www.ocharleys.com/ purports to be a "restaurant."
I imagine some of the trash cooks who post here would like the place.

Quoted message said:

--
Craig

--Bryan

"Food Snob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Craig Welch said:

On 15 May 2006 11:56:10 -0700, "Food Snob" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

> Where have you been? All I hear about is ground beef. Lots of
> restaurants won't serve hamburgers less done than medium.
>
I wouldn't patronize such restaurants.

He doesn't really mean 'restaurants'. McDonalds, for example, is not
a 'restaurant'.

This place http://www.ocharleys.com/ purports to be a "restaurant."
I imagine some of the trash cooks who post here would like the place.

Quoted message said:

--
Craig

--Bryan

Looks like Appleby's, repackaged.

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"D.Currie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Food safety is one thing, paranoia is another. Somewhere between the
clueless and the paranoid are the people who use reasonable safety
without living in either squalor or a hermetically sealed bubble.
Restaurants and other institutions need to enforce stricter policies
because a mistake can sicken a whole lot more people. And if the regs for
those institutions are set high enough, a small mistake won't actually
sicken anyone. And they have to assume there will be mistakes considering
the skills of the employees at many of these places.

I don't know a whole lot of people who follow restaurant health codes at
home.

By the way, what age is "traditional age"?

Donna

If you lived here, I'd bring you flowers. Common sense is intensely sexy.

aw, shucks <blushing>

Donna

Quoted message said:

Food Snob said:

Anthony said:

There is a constant drumbeat of warnings about food to avoid, for
example raw eggs and oysters, meat which has not been cooked to near
destruction, fish which may contain mercury and so on. Yet the odd
thing is that nowhere have I found a warning against pre-ground meat
although in the stories one reads it often seems to be ecoli infected
hamburger which is being recalled.

I've looked (not too diligently, I admit) for stats on the subject but
they seem rather thin on the ground and often are agenda driven, for
example linking an increase in genetically modified foods to an
increase in the incidence of food poisoning. But overall the problem
seems to be quite minor, with about 5,000 deaths annually in the US,
compared to about 40,000 road deaths (with presumably an even larger
number of serious injuries).

So I've decided to maintain the practices of a lifetime and continue to
eat eggs, beef and seafood all the way from raw to well done, but to
continue to cook chicken and pork to the recommended minimum
temperatures. And to be sure to fasten my seat belt.

I'm with you on every point except the pork part. You don't have to
cook pork to death these days. Now, I don't like it rare, but medium
to medium well can be nice. The concern used to be trichinosis, but I
don't think that's an issue anymore. I've eaten raw beef 1000+ times,
and have never noticed ill effects. I nearly always make eggs lightly
basted. The goal is getting the white 100% hard, while leaving the
yolk as runny as possible. Using jumbo size eggs helps.

--Bryan

The raw egg thing is pretty much overblown too. The United Egg
Producers estimate that about 1 in 20,000 eggs sold in the US are
contaminated by salmonella. I haven't done the math, but I think I
would have to eat an awful lot of eggs to have a likelyhood of
encountering two such eggs in my lifetime. In any event, it sounds like
pretty good odds.

I never fear raw egg, but like many, I find unhardened albumens really
icky. My 4 YO does too, and I never coached him in that regard. If
there is any runny white, he rejects the eggs as undercooked, or as he
puts it, "Not done enough."

Quoted message said:

BTW, I think I cook my eggs the same way. As soon as the white is done,
I'll flip the egg just to "seal" the top side and serve. Oh...I flip
'em hard so the yolk breaks in the pan. And nothing but jumbos. Three
jumbos and a pork belly is a balanced breakfast.

A low/controlled carber, eh? I agree, but not about breaking the
yolks. The "goal" I mentioned. I'm not great at achieving it,
therefore I'm barely even a good cook, certainly not a great one,
because I so often fail the egg test.

Quoted message said:

b.

--Bryan

D.Currie said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"D.Currie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Food safety is one thing, paranoia is another. Somewhere between the
clueless and the paranoid are the people who use reasonable safety
without living in either squalor or a hermetically sealed bubble.
Restaurants and other institutions need to enforce stricter policies
because a mistake can sicken a whole lot more people. And if the regs for
those institutions are set high enough, a small mistake won't actually
sicken anyone. And they have to assume there will be mistakes considering
the skills of the employees at many of these places.

I don't know a whole lot of people who follow restaurant health codes at
home.

By the way, what age is "traditional age"?

I think he means 18-24, the college age of those who attend straight
out of high school..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Donna

If you lived here, I'd bring you flowers. Common sense is intensely sexy.

Smart in all its forms is sexy.

Quoted message said:

aw, shucks <blushing>

He was admiring the intelligence behind your post. Feeling
complimented is a nice sensation. I agree, except I only bring flowers
to my wife 🙂

Quoted message said:

Donna

--Bryan

"Food Snob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

D.Currie said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"D.Currie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

> Food safety is one thing, paranoia is another. Somewhere between the
> clueless and the paranoid are the people who use reasonable safety
> without living in either squalor or a hermetically sealed bubble.
> Restaurants and other institutions need to enforce stricter policies
> because a mistake can sicken a whole lot more people. And if the regs
> for
> those institutions are set high enough, a small mistake won't actually
> sicken anyone. And they have to assume there will be mistakes
> considering
> the skills of the employees at many of these places.
>
> I don't know a whole lot of people who follow restaurant health codes
> at
> home.
>
> By the way, what age is "traditional age"?

I think he means 18-24, the college age of those who attend straight
out of high school..

Ah. People of that age are clueless about a lot of things relating to
everyday life. In high school, parents generally take care of most needs,
and college isn't exactly "real life."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> Donna
>

If you lived here, I'd bring you flowers. Common sense is intensely
sexy.

Smart in all its forms is sexy.

Quoted message said:

aw, shucks <blushing>

He was admiring the intelligence behind your post. Feeling
complimented is a nice sensation. I agree, except I only bring flowers
to my wife 🙂

Nice that you bring flowers. I'll just take the compliments and save them up
for when I do something stupid.

Donna

Quoted message said:

The raw egg thing is pretty much overblown too. The United Egg
Producers estimate that about 1 in 20,000 eggs sold in the US are
contaminated by salmonella. I haven't done the math, but I think I
would have to eat an awful lot of eggs to have a likelyhood of
encountering two such eggs in my lifetime. In any event, it sounds like
pretty good odds.

BTW, I think I cook my eggs the same way. As soon as the white is done,
I'll flip the egg just to "seal" the top side and serve. Oh...I flip
'em hard so the yolk breaks in the pan. And nothing but jumbos. Three
jumbos and a pork belly is a balanced breakfast.

b.

I agree, I have an egg over easy for breakfast (unbroken yolk) but with
smoked salmon. Omega 3 whatnots doncha know.