forefoot vs heel strike

Dave said:

I've read differing opinions on whether heel striking is
necessary.

If you were to run or walk barefoot, how would you land? See
if your doctors would land heel first while running barefoot
on a hard surface.

FWIW, my PT tried to switch me from mid-foot back to heel
landing, thinking it was a symptom of some biomechanics
issues I had. I finally convinced him why I switched from
heel to mid-foot. Once he understood why I had switched
and that it wasn't a symptom, he didn't try to get me to
change back.

I

Quoted message said:

REALLY want to be able to run again - it's maddening to
not be able to run half-marathons, etc... Can anyone tell
me whether the mid-forefoot striking is a huge problem?

No, it's a quite common running style.

I think it'd be easy to

Quoted message said:

revert to my old running style - heel strike still doesn't
feel natural.

Thanks for all your advice - any articles on this would be
a huge help!

Google the group for any of the keywords associated with it
(heel, forefoot, mid-foot, cadence), and you'll find several
threads - about 3 or so per year - dealing with it. I
mention cadence because a lot of times that's how people
switch from heel to mid-, fore-foot striking - by striving
to get a 180 footfalls / min, which is usually faster than
their previous cadence.

Good luck with your return to running.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

In article said:

I have a tough question, hope someone can help. Sorry
in advance for the long post - but there's background
to cover.

Your footstrike is very unlikely to be the cause of the
problem, it's probably a red herring. The most likely causes
of shin splints are training too quickly, too much speed
work, too much too soon, and inappropriate footwear in about
that order.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Try running in flats, you can't help but be a mid foot/front
foolt striker.

I, too was a forefoot runner who converted to heel for a
year or so. After all, Runners World said heel running
was better...

I discovered in a race that I could run noticably faster on
my toes, especially on downhills; end of heel running.

Your problems are probably just adaptation problems. Try
soft surfaces (trail/grass), and cushy shoes. I had shin
splint problems at first, too.

Take it real easy and slow for a while to let everything
remold and adapt.

--Dan

Given your comments about shin splints, I would guess that
your problem is tightness in your achilles tendon, calf, and
the back of your upper legs.

As others have mentioned in this thread, I think the heel
strike thing is a red herring. If you can get your tightness
thing worked out, that would be a lot more help, and I think
then you will WANT to mid food strike and not heel strike.

First, I would suggest shedding the extra 15 lbs (easier
said than done :-). Next, I would suggest some good
stretches for your achilles, calves, and legs. Note that
these should be done either after a run or at an alternative
time of day, NOT before a run.

A couple of good stretches that works for me:

Calf stretch: Stand in front of a wall. Place one foot back
behind you so that you are in a forward "lunge" position.
Place your hands on the wall, and keep your back heel on the
ground. Your front calf should be approximately vertical
and. Ease down until you feel a burning sensation in your
calf. Hold for about 1 minute and switch. At first, this
will be difficult, but as you become more limber, you will
find it easier. The objective is to be able to hold a lower
position over time, with the top of your front leg almost
horizontal.

Alternate leg pull: Sit on a mat or carpetted floor. Place
one leg straight out in front of you and fold the other foot
in against your thigh almost at the crotch. Grab the big toe
of the foot stretched out in front of your with both hands.
(OK. At first you may not be able to do this. In that case,
grab the toe with the same side hand as the foot, and grab
your wrist with the other hand. If you can't even do this
use a washrag, and loop it around your feed and grab it with
both hands.) If you had to go into the parentheses, continue
until you can grab the foot with both hands. When you can do
this, then start working on getting your head down until you
can touch your knee with your forehead. Once you can get to
this point, I can almost guarantee that you will not have
shinsplints. If you are really stiff to start with, it may
take some time, but with presistance over time you can
become much more flexible.

Larry

Dave <[email hidden]> writes:
: I have a tough question, hope someone can help. Sorry
: in advance for the long post - but there's background
: to cover.

: Until 13 years ago, I was a mid-forefoot striker. Then I
: developed some severe shin splints, ankle probs, etc...
: (due to running w/out warming up, not stretching, and
: being about 15 lbs heavier than the last time I'd run).
: Since that time, I have not been able to run much
: - I would train up to 3 miles every 2-3 days, and the
: problems would return. I've been to MANY
: doctors/chiropractors/phys therapists (even
: accupuncture). Nothing has really helped. One of the
: things everyone has told me is that I needed to become a
: heel striker. After 13 years, I am. But it doesn't feel
: natural. And really, changing to heel striking has not
: really helped anything. And, to top it off, anyone who
: sees me on the treadmill says I am only barely a heel
: striker (I've got video to prove it).

: I'm trying, again. Been going to chiropractor and
: neuromuscular massage therapist, and podiatrist for new
: orthotics. Right now, all the soreness and inflamation is
: gone. I'm doing elipsiciser/biking, light weight training,
: and lots of stretching. My new orthotics (stiff ones this
: time, since I have a slightly high arch) will be ready in
: a week, and I'll begin a running program, hoping to get
: ready for the Peachtree Road Race (10k) in early July.
: Basically, my body is in as good a position to begin
: running as it has ever been, except for one question.

: I've read differing opinions on whether heel striking is
: necessary. I REALLY want to be able to run again - it's
: maddening to not be able to run half-marathons, etc... Can
: anyone tell me whether the mid-forefoot striking is a huge
: problem? I think it'd be easy to revert to my old running
: style - heel strike still doesn't feel natural.

: Thanks for all your advice - any articles on this would be
: a huge help!

: Dave

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To,"
"Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

I have a tough question, hope someone can help. Sorry
in advance for the long post - but there's background
to cover.

Until 13 years ago, I was a mid-forefoot striker. Then I
developed some severe shin splints, ankle probs, etc...
(due to running w/out warming up, not stretching, and
being about 15 lbs heavier than the last time I'd run).
Since that time, I have not been able to run much
- I would train up to 3 miles every 2-3 days, and the
problems would return. I've been to MANY
doctors/chiropractors/phys therapists (even
accupuncture). Nothing has really helped. One of the
things everyone has told me is that I needed to become a
heel striker. After 13 years, I am. But it doesn't feel
natural. And really, changing to heel striking has not
really helped anything. And, to top it off, anyone who
sees me on the treadmill says I am only barely a heel
striker (I've got video to prove it).

I'm trying, again. Been going to chiropractor and
neuromuscular massage therapist, and podiatrist for new
orthotics. Right now, all the soreness and inflamation is
gone. I'm doing elipsiciser/biking, light weight training,
and lots of stretching. My new orthotics (stiff ones this
time, since I have a slightly high arch) will be ready in
a week, and I'll begin a running program, hoping to get
ready for the Peachtree Road Race (10k) in early July.
Basically, my body is in as good a position to begin
running as it has ever been, except for one question.

I've read differing opinions on whether heel striking is
necessary. I REALLY want to be able to run again - it's
maddening to not be able to run half-marathons, etc... Can
anyone tell me whether the mid-forefoot striking is a huge
problem? I think it'd be easy to revert to my old running
style - heel strike still doesn't feel natural.

Thanks for all your advice - any articles on this would be
a huge help!

Dave.

Heel Strikers are Overstriders. Heel defined as back of the
heel of the shoe. Others like Abebe Bikila were heel
touchers. Their center of gravity was over or behind their
heel touching

See dialogue on heel striking, overstriding, proper form &
style at:
rwforums.rodale.com/thread.jsp?forum=20&thread=141228

See: Ball/Heel/Ball-Correct Way to Run.
mindfulness.commrb4.aspOpen ↗

Following posts from 1996 and 1998 state a position I've
espoused since the late 70's.

Subject:Heel Striker Are Overstriders Posted: Rec.running:
Time: 3/3/96 9:10 PM

I believe after 20 years of watching runners and training
and coaching running form and style, "Heel Strikers are
Overstriders."

If you are running towards me and I can see the bottoms of
your shoes from the front to the heel, you are overstriding.
If you come down on the heel of the shoe, you are landing
behind the heel of the foot which is about an inch or inch
and a half in front of the back of the shoe heel.

The article on Barefoot Bedouin Runners touches the heart of
the matter. If you are landing hard on your feet and you
wear shoes that absorb the impact, you aren't learning to
run like the human animal was meant to run.

Abibe Bakila (sp) ran the last 20 plus miles over the
streets and cobblestones of Rome to win the Olympic
Marathon...barefoot.

Shoes will get more technical to deal the injuries caused
not by running but by improper running. It's not only the
shoes that can be the problem but the unthinking runner who
doesn't think about moving over the earth with grace and
ease for 80 to 120 years.

What do you think? Ozzie

Posted: 7/20/98 12:19 AM Dialogue with Jimmy & Jim2 on RW
forum for the first time.

Jimmy/Jim2/& Friends,

Here's a dialogue between Miles Lakin & me.

Miles,

Here are some of my responses to your post:

Quoted message said:

I remain unsure about.
1) Heel strikers who run a 2:20 marathon.

Back in the early '80's I videotaped Jan Hagelbrand from
Sweden who was running here in San Diego.

It blew me away as he looked like a heel striker until I ran
the tape in slow motion. The tape showed that the lower leg
would go forward of the knee as in an overstride...and
therefore looking like a heel strike but at the moment of
impact he would land flat footed with the body already
moving in front of the foot plant. He was one of the
lightest and most graceful runners I've seen. Minimal
vertical displacement. This was seen when he stepped down
off a curb into the street and then back up again. You never
saw that he stepped up or stepped down if you only watched
his head. He placed the feet down while keep vertical/up &
down displacement to a minimum.

(Jimmy/Jim2: The problem in seeing a still photo is that
you can't tell where the foot is going to land. You need to
look at a video and in slow motion. More recently I
videotaped my daughter who also looks like a heel striker
put when I slowed the video down she lands the same as
Hagelbrand. Her body is already over the point where she
touches midsole...but the second before you think that she
will land on the heel first. When the foot touches the
ground...there's minimal body weight going into the ground
and her body is being catapulted forward from where the
foot lightly touch down. And the touch down of the foot is
both the ball and heel. From that momentary platform of the
ball and the heel touching the rest of the body is
catapulted forward by the explosion of the hams and gluts
into the next step.)

"Stay light on your feet. As you count your cadence, imagine
you're running on thin ice. By touching very lightly, you
minimize the delay between touchdown and push-off."

Galloway's word-picture doesn't explainthe idea of center of
gravity not moving down...so that they can experience it.
The term "push-off" is too exercise phys. It focuses
attention on the planted foot forgetting that running is
falling and getting the planted foot off the ground as fast
as possible when your center of gravity (cog) would fall to
the earth if that "push off" foot wasn't "pulled" up quickly
to get it back down to keep up with its minimal vertically
displaced body.

Imagine a balanced broom in your hand. It starts to lean
1/100 of a degree away from you. If you go at the same speed
it's falling it keeps that angle and you're using gravity to
carry the broom. The body is the broom handle falling
forward and the palm of the hand is keeping up the broom
handle as it maintains a constant velocity.

In your next run, play with your right leg throwing your
right arm/elbow forward and your left leg throwing your left
arm/elbow forward. Feel the elbow swinging forward from the
shoulder with an equal and opposite angle from the vertical.
Haven't heard anyone else use that image or mental
construct...as we think asymmetrically left elbow/right knee
and right elbow and left knee. Most runners are locked in
the shoulder and the elbow swing forward of the shoulder
locks and does not easily swing as a pendulum with the
shoulder as the fulcrum point.

Quoted message said:

2) How to best to make the change.

March in place. Notice that naturally the ball touches first
and instantly followed by the heel. The truth is that the
point on which you are touching in terms of a vectored
force, is a spot between the ball and the heel...closer to
the heel...called "the eye of the foot." It is from that
point that you push off. If you land heel first, it's the
heel of your foot...NOT the back of the heel of the shoe
because that (landing on the back of the heel OF THE SHOE)
is an overstride.

Now if you march in place by just lifting the knees up/down,
notice the body doesn't go up and down. As you march in
place, keeping your body erect/eyes on the horizon. Learn
from the ankle a degree. Imagine you're the broom handle
starting to fall. Note that as you start to fall so
slightly, the knee which you used to pick up your lower leg
continue in the same up and down movement. As it goes up and
down that foot lands under your center of gravity but about
3 to 5 inches in front of where that foot last landed and
your still are landing ball/heel. When the foot is placed
down by lowering the knee, your upper body doesn't go up and
down. Now vertical displacement...so why do we jog in place
by lifting our bodies up and down...when we all know that
jogging or running is moving horizontally over the earth.

If you weight 150 pounds and you lift your body up a half
inch more than necessary every step, then every 24 steps
you've lifted your body weight one foot (150 foot-pounds) up
going no where.

Put the 10 quick steps, the broom handle, wasting 150 foot
pounds, the lifting of the knees by marching in place...and
say, "I think he's got something."

(Jimmy/Jim2/Friends: Clinical experience of Oz: 24 years as
therapist who walks & runs with his patients; 80 marathons,
3 ultras-one of which was a 50 miler around a quarter mile
track, 23 years as director of San Diego Marthon Clinic,
have taught over 50K walkers & runners and trained about
5,000+ marathoners, and made observations of several hundred
thousand walkers and runners from non-exercising walker
walking to the elevator to similar world class runners
you've seen in person and on videos or TV.)

Running slowly, have your trainee take 10 quick/quick/quick
steps without speeding up. You will notice that the runners
center of gravity (cog) elevates so that the steps can be
done quickly. You will also notice that this walking on hot
coals image has the runner landing like if he marching in
place: BALL/HEEL.

You will notice that most runners in doing the quick steps
also lean backwards. I have the runner do this about 5 or 6
times telling them that the tallest elevation is where the
elevated cog needs to be all the time in order to be
faster. Then I have them do the 10 quick steps several
times keeping the upper torso aligned and vertical to lift
the knees and not backwards leaning to lift them. After
they keep their torso erect, I have then take the 10 quick
steps staying erect but a quarter of an inch lean from the
ankle...and after the 10 quick steps I have then coast for
20 or 30 steps....they then begin to get the feel of
minimal vertical displacement and running fast as having
nothing to do with "push off." I tell them that push off is
something to consider at a 5 minute or below pace as one
needs to pop up the lower leg fast enough so that it can
cycle through for the next plant.

Quoted message said:

(1) is possibly a red herring, in that the *alleged* heel
striker may change his/her footplant microseconds
before touchdown or the heel strike may be with a very
flat angle.

Yes, that is the reality. For a 2:20 marathoner who looks
like a heel striker, their cog is moving in front of the
planted foot on quick-tap/touch. Screw the image of
"IMPACT." Back to the issue that Running IS Dancing and can
be done clumsily or gracefully...so go for the grace and
longevity of being able to run injury free will follow.

The real issue is that the world...well the majority of
runners visualize the heel strike as the back of the heel of
the shoe...which you and I know would have to be an
overstride with a decelerating effect. The heel of the
bare/naked foot is about an inch or one and a half inches in
front of the back of the heel of the shoe. Shoe companies
perpetrate a fallacy when addressing heel strike as if the
shoe is the answer. That picture I posted showed 3 of the 6
runners running barefoot in a 10K. All 6 were world record
holders in some event.

Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
Dir., San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 Mindful Running:
mindfulness.commr.aspOpen ↗ faqs.orgrunningOpen ↗
faq/

Dave said:

I've read differing opinions on whether heel striking is
necessary. I REALLY want to be able to run again - it's
maddening to not be able to run half-marathons, etc... Can
anyone tell me whether the mid-forefoot striking is a huge
problem? I think it'd be easy to revert to my old running
style - heel strike still doesn't feel natural.

Dear Dave,

1) I've been a forefoot runner for all 13 years I've run.
I've had virtually no problems. So the quick answer is
that, yes, forefoot running is certainly viable,
although not the norm (I have never ever seen another
forefoot runner like me).
2) My success has nothing to do with whether it is right
for you. Only you can figure that out.

I've posted at great length several times over the years
here at rec.running in conversations about heel vs. forefoot
striking, and tons of others have participated as well.
Rather than reinvent the wheel, please consider searching
the archives.

Best regards, -- Josh in Syracuse

"Buddy Guy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<hW9ic.28689$ab3.10569@fed1read02>...

Quoted message said:

Try running in flats, you can't help but be a mid
foot/front foolt striker.

Thanks to everyone for replying - this information is most
helpful, and I'll continue searching the forum

FOLLOW UP QUESTION: Buddy, thanks for mentioning shoes. Can
you give me an example of flats? My podiatrist is pushing
for cushion shoes - my experience is that they all have a
pretty huge heel. I'd appreciate your suggestions!

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Your footstrike is very unlikely to be the cause of the
problem, it's probably a red herring. The most likely
causes of shin splints are training too quickly, too much
speed work, too much too soon, and inappropriate footwear
in about that order.

I agree. Footstrike could be the problem, but you've now run
in different styles with no change in the results. May not
be the footstrike style. -- Josh

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To,"
"Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article <[email hidden]>, Larry McMahan

Quoted message said:

A couple of good stretches that works for me:

Calf stretch: Stand in front of a wall. Place one foot
back behind you so that you are in a forward "lunge"
position. Place your hands on the wall, and keep your back
heel on the ground. Your front calf should be
approximately vertical and. Ease down until you feel a
burning sensation in your calf. Hold for about 1 minute
and switch. At first, this will be difficult, but as you
become more limber, you will find it easier. The objective
is to be able to hold a lower position over time, with the
top of your front leg almost horizontal.

As Larry said, this is a good stretch. Often people put
weight on the back foot. This is demonstrated if you can
lift up the front leg off the ground. If you can lift the
front leg off the ground then the back leg, the one you're
stretching is weight bearing. A weight bearing muscle
cannot stretch.

So the weight has to be on the front leg so you could/can
lift off the back leg ground, although you won't, keeping
the back heel on the ground.

In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer -
rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est.
1975

Mindful Running: mindfulness.commr.aspOpen ↗ faqs.orgrunningOpen ↗
faq/

In article said:

"Buddy Guy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<hW9ic.28689$ab3.10569@fed1read02>...

Quoted message said:

Try running in flats, you can't help but be a mid
foot/front foolt striker.

Thanks to everyone for replying - this information is most
helpful, and I'll continue searching the forum

FOLLOW UP QUESTION: Buddy, thanks for mentioning shoes.
Can you give me an example of flats?

IMO flats are not appropriate as trainers for the vast
majority of runners.

Examples of flats include Asics Tiger Paw, Asics DS Racer,
Saucony Fastwitch, and Nike Air Streak. Lighter racing flats
include Brooks T3, Asics Gel Magic, Adidas Cubato Plus.

These are good shoes for racing and possibly speed work. The
vast majority of runners (even the vast majority of good
runners) use regular trainers the rest of the time.

Quoted message said:

My podiatrist is pushing for cushion shoes - my experience
is that they all have a pretty huge heel. I'd appreciate
your suggestions!

I don't really understand your concern here. You seem to be
going out of your way to get worried about the wrong things.

Of the three types of shoes (cushioning, stability, motion
control), the "cushion shoes" are the most flexible. Wearing
shoes that are not sufficiently flexible could aggravate,
contribute to or even cause shinsplints.

Cushioning shoes come in different weights. Some are pretty
heavy (Asics Nimbus, NB 104x), some are like a built-up
racing flat (Asics Verdict) and some are somewhere in
between (Mizuno Wave Rider, Asics Cumulus)

Shoes in either of these weights will probably work just
fine. I tend to use the heavier ones for training -- I run
over fairly rough terrain (uneven sidewalks at night) so I
like the extra protection, but I also use lighter shoes
(Asics Verdict or Mizuno Wave Rider) for speed work. For
racing, I go with flats. I'd consider using flats for my
speed work, but I tend to do a lot of milage on speed days
which makes this impractical (I usually add a long
cooldown run)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗