Four cross spokes for cross wheels?

Quoted message said:

Since I'll be buying new hubs, should I go ahead and get 36 holes?

I'm not concerned with weight but greatly value durability. I weigh 170 lbs.

Since you are buying new hubs, get a 36 hole rear and 28 hole front. You are not too heavy for 32
hole but it is true that 36 spokes make a much stronger 700c rear wheel. The weight of four
additional spokes (plus a tad more wind resistance) is a very small trade-off. At the very least,
you'll have piece of mind. Twenty-eight hole front wheels are very strong, too.

Dave

Dave S said:

Since I'll be buying new hubs, should I go ahead and get 36 holes?

Yes

Quoted message said:

And if so, should I lace them four cross?

4 cross will be a little crowded on a low-flange hub with 36 spokes, but it is possible. 3-cross
should be just as strong, and a bit lighter.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | When you are up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember _`\(,_ | that your initial
objective was to drain the swamp. -- LBJ (_)/ (_) |

Three-cross is enough.

Dave

"Dave S" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've just completed the build on my first cross bike and have put cross tires on my 32 hole
training wheels. These wheels are holding up fine although the fire roads in this area are a
little rough on 'em.

I am going to build a new set of wheels so that I don't have to switch the tires on these wheels
from road to cross. And this leads to my questions.

Since I'll be buying new hubs, should I go ahead and get 36 holes? And if so, should I lace them
four cross? I plan to use Record hubs, DT swaged spokes and Velocity Aerohead rims (with the OC
version in the rear).

I'm not concerned with weight but greatly value durability. I may race the occasion cross event
but this bike was built as an all-arounder and is ridden on and off road. The frame and fork are
lugged steel and I weigh 170 lbs. Your comments and suggestions are appreciated.

Thx, Dave

Before you go get all excited about 36 hole wheels, ride bigger tires. I'm riding 34c tires now,
don't have any problems with my rims, and outweigh you by 10-15#.

If you're not racing, and have the clearance, aren't there 29" tires that'll fit?

IMO a well-built 32 hole wheelset is going to be plenty. Those aeroheads are tough rims.

If you insist on using a 36 hole rear hub (I'd still go 32 in the front) stay 3X.

Mike

Dave S said:

I've just completed the build on my first cross bike and have put cross tires on my 32 hole
training wheels. These wheels are holding up fine although the fire roads in this area are a
little rough on 'em.

I am going to build a new set of wheels so that I don't have to switch the tires on these wheels
from road to cross. And this leads to my questions.

Since I'll be buying new hubs, should I go ahead and get 36 holes? And if so, should I lace them
four cross? I plan to use Record hubs, DT swaged spokes and Velocity Aerohead rims (with the OC
version in the rear).

I'm not concerned with weight but greatly value durability. I may race the occasion cross event
but this bike was built as an all-arounder and is ridden on and off road. The frame and fork are
lugged steel and I weigh 170 lbs. Your comments and suggestions are appreciated.

4x with only 36 spokes gives a rather oblique entry angle into the rim. This spoking pattern was
very popular among European road racers for years though (they thought the extra crossings made the
wheel more durable).

Basically there's no real advantage, and at least one definite disadvantage, over a 3x pattern.

Zog The Undeniable said:

4x with only 36 spokes gives a rather oblique entry angle into the rim. This spoking pattern was
very popular among European road racers for years though (they thought the extra crossings made
the wheel more durable).

Basically there's no real advantage, and at least one definite disadvantage, over a 3x pattern.

There is one minimal advantage of 4x, in that for a given rim, the spoke length for essentially any
hub is the same. I'm building a pair now -- waiting for some parts, actually, and the front with an
ancient campy high-flange hub takes the same spoke length as the rear nexus internal-gear hub at 2
cm wider flange diameter, for 4x.

But still, I wouldn't use it for low-flange hubs. 3-cross is fine.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | There is always an easy solution to every human problem - neat, _`\(,_ | plausible, and
wrong. --H.L. Mencken (_)/ (_) |

dasams-<< I am going to build a new set of wheels so that I don't have to switch the tires on these
wheels from road to cross. And this leads to my questions.

Since I'll be buying new hubs, should I go ahead and get 36 holes? And if so, should I lace them
four cross? >><BR><BR>

Sure 36h, why not? But three croiss...4 cross doesn't help anything and may have the spoke at the
flange overlay a lot of the hub flange..

dasams<< I plan to use Record hubs, DT swaged spokes and Velocity Aerohead rims (with the OC version
in the rear). >><BR><BR>

Aerohead rims for cross?? Not a good idea, IMO-too light.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

mikes-<< IMO a well-built 32 hole wheelset is going to be plenty. Those aeroheads are tough rims.

If you insist on using a 36 hole rear hub (I'd still go 32 in the front) stay 3X. >><BR><BR>

Don't get 'insist' on 36h..for cross racing and using Aeroheads, a VERY light rim..

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Quoted message said:

mikes-<< IMO a well-built 32 hole wheelset is going to be plenty. Those aeroheads are tough rims.

If you insist on using a 36 hole rear hub (I'd still go 32 in the front) stay 3X. >><BR><BR>

Don't get 'insist' on 36h..for cross racing and using Aeroheads, a VERY

light

Quoted message said:

rim..

My contention is that a well-built 32-hole wheelset is plenty, but if the OP REALLY wants a 36-hole
rear wheel, he should stay with the 3 cross lacing. Sorry for the confusion. That's what happens
when I type and (try to) think at the same time.

Mike

Quoted message said:

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

dasams-<< I am going to build a new set of wheels so that I don't have to switch the tires on
these wheels from road to cross. And this leads to my questions.

Since I'll be buying new hubs, should I go ahead and get 36 holes? And if so, should I lace them
four cross? >><BR><BR>

Sure 36h, why not? But three croiss...4 cross doesn't help anything and

may

Quoted message said:

have the spoke at the flange overlay a lot of the hub flange..

dasams<< I plan to use Record hubs, DT swaged spokes and Velocity Aerohead rims (with the OC
version in the rear). >><BR><BR>

Aerohead rims for cross?? Not a good idea, IMO-too light.

You should maybe surf on over to the www.roadbikereview.com cyclocross discussion group...

Mike

Quoted message said:

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Obivously all other things equal, 36 spokes is a more durable wheel than 32.

good points of fewer crosses:
- spokes may be a little shorter and therefore lighter.
- less overlap as mentioned.
- lateral strength is better

good points of more crosses:
- more suspension. radially laced wheels have a very harsh ride and you feel everything
- on a rear wheel it has more strength to resist the hub twisting in relation to the rim and
possibly a cleaner transfer of power from the hub to the rim.

Whether you pick 32, 36, 28 or 48 spokes, the same principles apply.

I'm sure I've overlooked some issue.

(Dave S) said:

I've just completed the build on my first cross bike and have put cross tires on my 32 hole
training wheels. These wheels are holding up fine although the fire roads in this area are a little
rough on 'em.

Since I'll be buying new hubs, should I go ahead and get 36 holes? And if so, should I lace them
four cross? I plan to use Record hubs, DT swaged spokes and Velocity Aerohead rims (with the OC
version in the rear).

I'm not concerned with weight but greatly value durability. I may race the occasion cross event but
this bike was built as an all-arounder and is ridden on and off road. The frame and fork are lugged
steel and I weigh 170 lbs. Your comments and suggestions are appreciated.

Thx, Dave

BVM said:

- more suspension. radially laced wheels have a very harsh ride and you feel everything

I , for one, can't tell _anything_ about the spokes while riding (except when a wheel is
falling-apart loose). If there's a difference, what exactly would you say is moving?

On wheels built here, the tension is fairly high and the wheel beahves as a single rigid thing, not
a sculpture of spaghetti.
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Dave S
I've just completed the build on my first cross bike and have put cross tires on my 32 hole
training wheels. These wheels are holding up fine although the fire roads in this area are a little
rough on 'em.

I am going to build a new set of wheels so that I don't have to switch the tires on these wheels
from road to cross. And this leads to my questions.

Since I'll be buying new hubs, should I go ahead and get 36 holes? And if so, should I lace them
four cross? I plan to use Record hubs, DT swaged spokes and Velocity Aerohead rims (with the OC
version in the rear).

I'm not concerned with weight but greatly value durability. I may race the occasion cross event but
this bike was built as an all-arounder and is ridden on and off road. The frame and fork are lugged
steel and I weigh 170 lbs. Your comments and suggestions are appreciated.

Thx, Dave

Stay away from 4X with these rims. The nipples can't pivot enough to follow the spoke line to the hub. This is due to the diameter of the drillings and the thickness of the aluminum. The result is that you will get a sharp bend in the spoke where it exits the nipple. But, 3X will be fine. If 4X is important to you, consider to find rims with eyelets as these allow the nipples to pivot more.

Steve Shapiro [email hidden]

Steve Shapiro said:

Stay away from 4X with these rims. The nipples can't pivot enough to follow the spoke line to the
hub. This is due to the diameter of the drillings and the thickness of the aluminum. The result is
that you will get a sharp bend in the spoke where it exits the nipple. But, 3X will be fine. If 4X
is important to you, consider to find rims with eyelets as these allow the nipples to pivot more.

You are kidding, right? The difference in angle at the rim between 3x and 4x on low-flange hubs
amounts to a fraction of a degree. The elbow is about 2mm further out from the axle, and the spoke
is about 300mm long. The angle difference is about (2/300)(180/pi) = 1/3 of one degree. How do you
get from "a sharp bend" to "fine" in 1/3 of one degree?

--

David L. Johnson

__o | We have a record of conquest, colonization and expansion _`\(,_ | unequalled by any people
in the Nineteenth Century. We are not (_)/ (_) | to be curbed now. --Henry Cabot Lodge, 1895

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Dave S
I've just completed the build on my first cross bike and have put cross tires on my 32 hole
training wheels. These wheels are holding up fine although the fire roads in this area are a little
rough on 'em.

I am going to build a new set of wheels so that I don't have to switch the tires on these wheels
from road to cross. And this leads to my questions.

Since I'll be buying new hubs, should I go ahead and get 36 holes? And if so, should I lace them
four cross? I plan to use Record hubs, DT swaged spokes and Velocity Aerohead rims (with the OC
version in the rear).

I'm not concerned with weight but greatly value durability. I may race the occasion cross event but
this bike was built as an all-arounder and is ridden on and off road. The frame and fork are lugged
steel and I weigh 170 lbs. Your comments and suggestions are appreciated.

Thx, Dave

I suggest Ritchey Trekking Girder PRO OCR for rear and the Ritchey Trekking Girder PRO 32 hole 3X.
If you want even more durability, use Bontrager Fairlane OSB 36 spoke 3X for rear and Bontrager Fairlane 36 spoke 3X front.
I have 12,000 touring miles on these wheels without any truing required.
Either of these rims should handle Cross Tires quite well. The tires sidewalls will be closer to vertical with these rims than Aeroheads.
I like Shimano MTB hubs for their seals. Shimano also gives slightly better rear spoke support angle on the right side.

However, Aeroheads are very tough rims for their weight. I built and ride a pair that are 28 spoke 2X front and 32 spoke 3X rear. The rear is OCR. I use these wheels for on road but my weight is about 20% greater than yours. These rims are holding perfectly true after 5,500 road miles.

Your plan to use DT Competition DB spokes is sound, no matter what rims and hubs you use.
Can your frame handle 135 mm OLD?

David L. Johnson said:

Steve Shapiro said:

Stay away from 4X with these rims. The nipples can't pivot enough to follow the spoke line to
the hub. This is due to the diameter of the drillings and the thickness of the aluminum. The
result is that you will get a sharp bend in the spoke where it exits the nipple. But, 3X will be
fine. If 4X is important to you, consider to find rims with eyelets as these allow the nipples
to pivot more.

You are kidding, right? The difference in angle at the rim between 3x and 4x on low-flange hubs
amounts to a fraction of a degree. The elbow is about 2mm further out from the axle, and the spoke
is about 300mm long. The angle difference is about (2/300)(180/pi) = 1/3 of one degree. How do you
get from "a sharp bend" to "fine" in 1/3 of one degree?

Mr. Dave,

You stole *my* question. Damn you.

Greg