rec.sport.unicycling · Public discussion

Framebuilding questions

paco · 2008-04-11T05:50:58+00:00

I think I've finally got it. For a long time, I've wanted to build a frame, but I don't have any welding equipment. I didn't want to pay someone to do it, and I wasn't willing to lay down the 200+ dollars to get started, plus having to deal with all the extra equipment. I've found one relatively easy and inexpensive way to get started. Bernzomatic has a new torch called the 'TS8000' (http://tinyurl.com/3zqvjv), which from what I've been researching, gets hot enough to braze, but not weld. Fine by me. Because it only costs -$50.00- at my local Home Depot. It runs on MAPP gas, which is almost as hot as acetylene, but is supposedly less dangerous, and you can get it in little $7 bottles. The nice thing is that, unlike the cheap oxy-MAPP torches (which get hot enough to bot cut and weld), this one will last long enough to build an entire bike frame, meaning that it is relatively inexpensive to operate. And brazing should be fine for what I want to experiment with, especially using thin walled tubing. Which brings me to my question. Having no experience whatsoever with welding, where do I get the steel tubing to work with? I have found it online, but I'm wondering where I can find it locally. Are there places where I can buy 2-10 feet of tubing? At Home Depot, I can find a few offerings of raw steel, but there's not many options. They have a wide selection of conduit, but that is galvanized, which can be dangerous to work with (I have done my homework). I would prefer a place where I could walk in, buy the stuff, and not feel like an idiot because everyone there is a professional welder who would laugh at what I'm trying to do. What kind of stores do I go to? Looking up steel or steel pipe seems to give me places that deal in industrial supplies, where people are buying enough to build skyscrapers. Eventually, I'm going to build myself a high quality Chromoly frame, but for now, I just want to try brazing a cheap frame together to see what it's like. -- paco Blah Blah Blah BACON Blah Blah Blah --Harper a-la Catboy 768 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ paco's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/3715 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/69131 Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com

Started by paco · 11 April 2008 · Last activity 16 April 2008 · 42 posts · 708 views

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Original section: rec.sport.unicycling
Published: 11 April 2008
Last activity: 16 April 2008
Original author: paco
Posts: 42
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Original post
paco
Archived post

11 April 2008, 05:50 UTC #1

I think I've finally got it.
For a long time, I've wanted to build a frame, but I don't have any
welding equipment. I didn't want to pay someone to do it, and I wasn't
willing to lay down the 200+ dollars to get started, plus having to
deal with all the extra equipment. I've found one relatively easy and
inexpensive way to get started.
Bernzomatic has a new torch called the 'TS8000'
(http://tinyurl.com/3zqvjv), which from what I've been researching,
gets hot enough to braze, but not weld. Fine by me. Because it only
costs -$50.00- at my local Home Depot. It runs on MAPP gas, which is
almost as hot as acetylene, but is supposedly less dangerous, and you
can get it in little $7 bottles. The nice thing is that, unlike the
cheap oxy-MAPP torches (which get hot enough to bot cut and weld), this
one will last long enough to build an entire bike frame, meaning that
it is relatively inexpensive to operate. And brazing should be fine
for what I want to experiment with, especially using thin walled
tubing.
Which brings me to my question. Having no experience whatsoever with
welding, where do I get the steel tubing to work with? I have found it
online, but I'm wondering where I can find it locally. Are there
places where I can buy 2-10 feet of tubing? At Home Depot, I can find
a few offerings of raw steel, but there's not many options. They have
a wide selection of conduit, but that is galvanized, which can be
dangerous to work with (I have done my homework). I would prefer a
place where I could walk in, buy the stuff, and not feel like an idiot
because everyone there is a professional welder who would laugh at what
I'm trying to do. What kind of stores do I go to? Looking up steel or
steel pipe seems to give me places that deal in industrial supplies,
where people are buying enough to build skyscrapers.
Eventually, I'm going to build myself a high quality Chromoly frame,
but for now, I just want to try brazing a cheap frame together to see
what it's like.
--
paco
Blah Blah Blah BACON Blah Blah Blah
--Harper a-la Catboy
768
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kington99
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11 April 2008, 06:50 UTC #2

In the Uk there's a chain of stores called Metal Supermarket, who will
sell you any amount of material, cut to size. I have no idea if they
opeate in the US, but if so they're exactly what you're lookking for.
You might like to look in to car-modifying shops or mail order
companies, they often offer small amounts of material intended for
purchase by non-professionals.
--
kington99
Dave
- what a thoroughly post-modern subversion of the cycling genre -
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sp4rky-m4rky
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11 April 2008, 08:24 UTC #3

Dont buy steel cut to length. If you can transport it and you wil use
it, buy it in stock length and cut it yourself. It will cost you quite
a bit less, They normaly charge quite a bit to cut it to length.
--
sp4rky-m4rky
my 'Year in vid'
(http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NR_FRoOqHBI#GU5U2spHI_4)
learning 180 or 360 unispins? watch my 'unispin tutorial'
(
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Want to glide? watch my 'ww tutorial'
(
)
UniDudeDX said:
but how does it feel??
Munivision said:
Really great!
UniDudeDX said:
quickies normaly do...

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1-wheeled-grape
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11 April 2008, 09:21 UTC #4

i was thinking about making a frame at school next year, so they'd get
the material hopefully, but i havn't checked. i think most car body
repair shops and fabrication companies may be able to get you some.
--
1-wheeled-grape
Scott,
Chris-"james is naming your unicycle a girls name replacement for
girlfriends?"😄 😄
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Nimbusnut
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11 April 2008, 14:18 UTC #5

Check the yellow pages under welding. Welders and welding supply
companies will know where to buy steel and it's various permutations..
Alloys. If you are serious about getting into welding some school
districts offer adult classes and depending on the size or demographics
of your home town, there could also be places that rent TIG or MIG
equipment, although it's something you could easily do with a torch if
you found someone with the skills that could help you along that
doesn't have the equipment at home.
You should also spend the time fabbing a good solid frame jig and
locating a chop saw or band saw with metal cutting blade, a hand
grinder, your choice of tool for rounding the cuts to fit the joints, a
milling machine for doing the bearing blocks (which could be as simple
as a drill press outfitted to do simple machining)....... Which may
bring you back to locating a welding class with the right tools to do a
good job or a friend that has a shop.
With any construction project be it wood or metal, getting good results
depends on the "set up" and having the right tools, as much as it is in
quality fabrication.
--
Nimbusnut
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Tellurider
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11 April 2008, 14:42 UTC #6

Hey Paco, I get my tubing from the Chassis shop. They have everything
listed on their website and they have a ton of sizes and wall
thicknesses. It costs only a little bit more to get cut lengths and
unless you are going to build a lot of unicycles it's worth it to just
buy what you need. There could be someone in your area that sells
cromoly steel tubing but you won't find it at your usual construction
steel supplier. I usualy use .049" wall thickness for fork legs and
1-1/8" .058" tubing for the seat tube this works for 1" seatposts or
25.4mm. The size that will fit 27.2 mm seat posts without machining is
way to big and thick walled and if you don't want to use a machine shop
I would go with the 25.4 seat post or you can cut up an old mountain
bike for a seat tube.
--
Tellurider
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Crooked
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11 April 2008, 14:55 UTC #7

ok i dont have much welding experience either but that doesent sounds
like something to start with (sounds difficult) and if it not gets so
hot, it might brake easily
I would buy a electric welder or loan one but thats just my opinion
--
Crooked
When the Power of Love
Overcomes the Love of Power
the World Will Know Peace
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Tellurider
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11 April 2008, 15:23 UTC #8

Crooked said:
ok i dont have much welding experience either but that doesent sounds
like something to start with (sounds difficult) and if it not gets so
hot, it might brake easily
I would buy a electric welder or loan one but thats just my opinion
Brazing is realy pretty easy and with a little bit of practice it can
be stronger than welding especialy if the welding is done by an
inexperienced welder.
I would just try practicing on a couple of pieces of scrap first. I
have built twelve unicycle frames this way starting out with no
experience and I have never had a frame break.
--
Tellurider
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Tellurider
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11 April 2008, 15:29 UTC #9

A couple of thing that will come in handy is a 4-1/2" angle grinder with
some thin cutting wheels and a flap sanding wheel, these work much
better than the coarse grinding wheels that come with the grinder. A
dremel tool and cloth sandpaper is also great for cleaning up the flux
and black [censored].
--
Tellurider
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chrome
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11 April 2008, 15:29 UTC #10

I bought my tubing from novacycles.com
They're an excellent source for steel tubing, also Titanium.
Cheers and good luck with your frame!
Cr
--
chrome
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maestro8
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11 April 2008, 17:55 UTC #11

paco said:
Bernzomatic has a new torch ... gets hot enough to braze, but not weld.
What did your research tell you, exactly? Did you look at flame
temperature or BTU output? Did you compare it to an oxy-acetylene
setup?
The reason I ask is because, even though the flame may achieve the
temperature required to melt the brazing rod, you don't know how long
you'll have to hold the flame over your joint in order to achieve that
temperature. If it ends up being a long time, you won't achieve a
strong braze at all... or if you do, it'll be localized to a small
area, and you want a strong braze all the way around the joint.
I speak from experience here, having bought the oxy-MAPP setup you
mentioned for some hobby welding, and trying to do a frame repair with
that setup. I found, for tubing suitable for frames, it's only good
for spot-welds, and barely passable at that.
If you're willing to fork out $50 for a torch, you could save a little
more dough and get an entry-level oxy-acetylene kit for about $150 new
(half that used) and rent some tanks for cheap. Then you'd have a
setup that'd actually get you somewhere, and give you real welding
experience in the process.
Quoted message said:
Looking up steel or steel pipe seems to give me places that deal in
industrial supplies, where people are buying enough to build
skyscrapers.
You're finding the right place, you just need to find a supplier that
deals in small amounts. Call around and ask. If you find a "nice guy"
supplier, he might even cut it for you at no added cost... I've found
most places here include that service for free.
Make sure to buy enough for a few frames, as you'll likely scrap your
first and/or second attempts. I'd recommend that you buy the same
tubing for your practice frame vs. your "production" frame as different
tubing welds differently... you'd want to practice on the "real deal"
if you want a good final product.
My 2c.
--
maestro8
Those are my principles. If you don't like those, I have others. --
Groucho Marx
The only way to comprehend what mathematicians mean by Infinity is to
contemplate the extent of human stupidity. -- François-Marie Arouet de
Voltaire
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paco
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11 April 2008, 18:25 UTC #12

Thanks, everyone. I guess I'll just have to start calling around (I
hate talking to people on the phone; I don't even own a cell phone).
I've read a number of b*ke building websites which say that the MAPP
only will work for brazing, so that's why I want to start with that.
My problem with oxy-acetylene or stick welding is that I don't want to
spend over $100. I'll probably be onto another hobby by next week, and
I don't want to feel guilty about not playing with an expensive toy.
Some day, when I have my own house with a workshop and plenty of space
to keep everything (an a real job to pay for it all), I'll probably
look at getting better equipment. But right now it's cheap or
nothing.
I live in a large enough area (200,000-500,000 people) that there
should be someone locally willing to take my money. It just comes down
to finding them.
Once I test my setup, I'll report back and tell you whether or not it's
worth it. Someone's got the be the first, right?
By the way, some people even braze with propane (although it's much
harder), so MAPP should work.
--
paco
Blah Blah Blah BACON Blah Blah Blah
--Harper a-la Catboy
'Still a work in progress'
(http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46412) . . .
768
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Tellurider
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11 April 2008, 18:57 UTC #13

Maestro8 is right about getting the metal hot enough. You have to get
both pieces hot enough for the bronze to flow into the joint like
solder. If you don't get it hot enough fast enough your flux burns away
and you get oxidation and a weak joint. You could in therory use
propane but only for very small things, you will never get your frame
parts hot enough though.
The total BTUs is the important thing not just the flame temperature.
Also you definitly want to use 41-30 cromoly steel not mild steel. And
you will have trouble finding a good variety of tubing sizes and wall
thicknesses in mild steel. It's also about how the tubing is made the
good stuff doesn't have a seam and is much stronger.
--
Tellurider
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paco
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11 April 2008, 22:23 UTC #14

Right now, I just want to experiment. Once I'm ready to build my final
frame, I'm probably going to buy chromoly online. So I'm just looking
at using as cheap of tubing as I can find to start. I know it won't be
as strong or as light as it could be, but I just want to find a local
supplier of tubing (even square would be fine for now) where I can get
as much as I might need for the project at hand and go back if I need
more. That way, I'm not worrying about messing up while I'm still
learning.
I found one place around here that would work -- if I don't mind making
a minimum order of 250 feet. Giant giraffe, anyone?
The propane proponents are able to braze by preheating the metal in a
stove, or over an open flame, then using propane to heat it up just
enough to get the brazing rods to melt. Sounds overly complicated.
But the air-mapp system theoretically gets the base metal hot enough to
melt the silver or brass brazing rods and enter the joint via capillary
action (I went to the library and checked out three books on welding).
--
paco
Blah Blah Blah BACON Blah Blah Blah
--Harper a-la Catboy
'Still a work in progress'
(http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46412) . . .
768
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zfreak220
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12 April 2008, 00:06 UTC #15

'Source of choice of one Evan Byrne.'
(http://aircraftspruce.com/menus/me/index.html)
--
zfreak220
agentQ said:
Don't quote me on that.
Jkohse said:
ill never go back to 20 again, 24 for life!

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Tellurider
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12 April 2008, 03:00 UTC #16

I just compared the price of 1/2" .049" round 4130 tubing and The
aircraft spruce and specialty was $3.30 a foot and the chassis shop was
$2.76 per foot and $2.16 if you buy a full length 17'-24'. and they
will cut it into 48" lengths for free for UPS standard shipping.
It's realy not that expensive for the 4130 cromo since it doesn't take
that much.
It will definitly be more if you have to buy 250 feet.
I just bought enough to build six muni frames and with shipping it was
$78 only $13 apiece.
--
Tellurider
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cuzican
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12 April 2008, 05:28 UTC #17

I would like to build a frame myself, seems like it might be a fun
project and something to be proud of. Are you planing on bending the
tubing to make a frame like the nimbus?
--
cuzican
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the
music" George Carlin
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OneWheelLess
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12 April 2008, 05:57 UTC #18

if i could either weld (mig) or braze chromoly tubing, which would be
preferable?
--
OneWheelLess
Seriously, the other wheel just fell off one day.
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paco
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12 April 2008, 07:02 UTC #19

OneWheelLess said:
if i could either weld (mig) or braze chromoly tubing, which would be
preferable?
From my vast experience (okay, my research), mig welding will create a
stronger connection, but if done wrong on thin walled tubing, the metal
may fail away from the weld because of the intense heat. The brazing
will be strong enough if done right, but if done wrong, the braze
itself may fail. But from what I've read, both a weld and a braze can
end up stronger than the tubing itself, so both would work. It depends
on what you have access to and what you trust yourself to work with.
And it looks like aircraft spruce is the place to buy from when I'm
ready to buy the quality stuff. How much does shipping end up running?
From a few sources I've seen online, it can end up costing as much as
the metal itself.
--
paco
Blah Blah Blah BACON Blah Blah Blah
--Harper a-la Catboy
'Still a work in progress'
(http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46412) . . .
768
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dangerdog
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12 April 2008, 10:20 UTC #20

I have made several uni frames using an electric arc welder and I can
safely say that it works well.I am not familiar with mig or tig welding
but I am sure although expensive would do a better job than electric
arc.As for mapp gas I have got the brazing set up but I purchased it to
silver solder copper water pipe which was cheaper than buying or hiring
oxy-acetalene.Using the mapp gas on 1/2" copper pipe was easy however
on 3/4" pipe it hat to be preheated for about 5 minutes to have any
chance of a good braze/solder.I have attempted to braze some small
steel sections but failed due to inadequate heat.As for welding uni
frames there is a vast difference in weld strength requirements between
butt joints and socket type fittings (old style pushbike)I am no expert
on welding and this is just an account of my learning pathway.
--
dangerdog
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