freewheels and threaded hubs....

Quoted message said:

will any ACS, Dicta, or Shimano single speed freewheel thread onto a
Campy Pista, Shimano Dura Ace, or Phil Wood track hub?

Yep, the ones made for that thread pitch. Track hubs are just normal
freewheel pitch sections, made shorter so the reverse thread lockring
can go on. It is still tall enough for a single speed freewheel.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Yep, the ones made for that thread pitch. Track hubs are just normal
freewheel pitch sections, made shorter so the reverse thread lockring
can go on. It is still tall enough for a single speed freewheel.

Isn't it more like freewheel threads are track threads made longer and
without the lockring thread? Seems like the track thread was there first
-- viz the old Sturmeys and coasters with thread to screw the cog on,
rather than the newer splines.

Incidentally, why aren't there Fixie hubs with Sturmey & co splines
instead of the archaic threaded system? I mean, the cogs are a lot
cheaper, they have built-in chainline adjustment with the raised shoulders
and the two 1 mm spacers, and it's just an objectively better design,
especially for fastening on cogs that might get reverse pressure. They're
not used on hundreds of millions of coaster brake hubs for nothing, after
all.

Jasper

Jasper Janssen said:

Incidentally, why aren't there Fixie hubs with Sturmey & co splines
instead of the archaic threaded system?

There is one. I forget the brand, but saw posts about it here a while
back. The pictures on the web site made it look like just the hub you are
looking for.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Let's be straight here. If we find something we can't
_`\(,_ | understand we like to call it something you can't understand, or
(_)/ (_) | indeed even pronounce. -- Douglas Adams

Jasper Janssen said:

Quoted message said:

Yep, the ones made for that thread pitch. Track hubs are just
normal freewheel pitch sections, made shorter so the reverse thread
lockring can go on. It is still tall enough for a single speed
freewheel.

Quoted message said:

Isn't it more like freewheel threads are track threads made longer
and without the lockring thread? Seems like the track thread was
there first -- viz the old Sturmeys and coasters with thread to
screw the cog on, rather than the newer splines.

Quoted message said:

Incidentally, why aren't there Fixie hubs with Sturmey & co splines
instead of the archaic threaded system? I mean, the cogs are a lot
cheaper, they have built-in chainline adjustment with the raised
shoulders and the two 1 mm spacers, and it's just an objectively
better design, especially for fastening on cogs that might get
reverse pressure. They're not used on hundreds of millions of
coaster brake hubs for nothing, after all.

This type of attachment only works well on centered chain lines and
only on steel. Slide-on sprockets that we have on cassettes today
were formerly secured by screwing on the last sprocket to prevent
fretting damage that would otherwise occur. It was only recently that
someone devised the detente style cover-nut that holds today's gear
clusters together. Had someone invented that forty years ago, you
probably wouldn't need to ask. Progress is slow.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

will any ACS, Dicta, or Shimano single speed freewheel thread onto a
Campy Pista, Shimano Dura Ace, or Phil Wood track hub?

Yes.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Jasper Janssen said:

Quoted message said:

Yep, the ones made for that thread pitch. Track hubs are just
normal freewheel pitch sections, made shorter so the reverse thread
lockring can go on. It is still tall enough for a single speed
freewheel.

Quoted message said:

Isn't it more like freewheel threads are track threads made longer
and without the lockring thread? Seems like the track thread was
there first -- viz the old Sturmeys and coasters with thread to
screw the cog on, rather than the newer splines.

Quoted message said:

Incidentally, why aren't there Fixie hubs with Sturmey & co splines
instead of the archaic threaded system? I mean, the cogs are a lot
cheaper, they have built-in chainline adjustment with the raised
shoulders and the two 1 mm spacers, and it's just an objectively
better design, especially for fastening on cogs that might get
reverse pressure. They're not used on hundreds of millions of
coaster brake hubs for nothing, after all.

This type of attachment only works well on centered chain lines and
only on steel. Slide-on sprockets that we have on cassettes today
were formerly secured by screwing on the last sprocket to prevent
fretting damage that would otherwise occur. It was only recently that
someone devised the detente style cover-nut that holds today's gear
clusters together. Had someone invented that forty years ago, you
probably wouldn't need to ask. Progress is slow.

Seems to me that a Sturmey three speed or a coaster brake are pretty much
identical in chainline etc. considerations to a track hub. They don't seem
particularly prone to fretting with the splined + circular spring
attachment. Are threaded track cogs typically made of aluminum?

Jasper

David L. Johnson said:

Jasper Janssen said:

Incidentally, why aren't there Fixie hubs with Sturmey & co splines
instead of the archaic threaded system?

There is one. I forget the brand, but saw posts about it here a while
back. The pictures on the web site made it look like just the hub you are
looking for.

It'd probably still be cheaper to take a coaster brake hub, remove the
innards, and weld the driver solid.

Jasper

Jasper Janssen said:

Are threaded track cogs typically made of aluminum?

No, but track hubs are.

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer

David L. Johnson said:

Jasper Janssen said:

Incidentally, why aren't there Fixie hubs with Sturmey & co splines
instead of the archaic threaded system?

There is one. I forget the brand, but saw posts about it here a while
back. The pictures on the web site made it look like just the hub you are
looking for.

Miche makes the splined system. I have no idea if it is the same spline
pattern as the sturmey.

Baird

Helmut Springer said:

Jasper Janssen said:

Are threaded track cogs typically made of aluminum?

No, but track hubs are.

Right, and I think Jobst's point was that the steel cogs would fret
into the aluminum of the hub, especially the S-A design which has only
three small "splines." Cassette hubs with aluminum bodies and steel cogs
can have this problem (I see this on my 1999 Campy Chorus)- the cogs
"bite" into the softer aluminum and leave visible marks, and are a
little difficult to get off at times. It's necessary to torque down
the cog retainer firmly to minimize this.

Helmut Springer said:

Jasper Janssen said:

Are threaded track cogs typically made of aluminum?

No, but track hubs are.

Am I mis-remembering? I thought I had used both steel and aluminum
track cogs, in my brief fling with fixed-gear, 20 years ago. I thought
the aluminum cog was a Campy, not some rare, exotic one-off affair.

Mark

Baird Webel said:

Miche makes the splined system. I have no idea if it is the same
spline pattern as the sturmey.

It isn't: the Miche sprockets use seven evenly-spaced splines, while
Sturmeys use three.

Pictures here:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/fixed-sprockets.html

James Thomson

Jasper Janssen said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Yep, the ones made for that thread pitch. Track hubs are just
> normal freewheel pitch sections, made shorter so the reverse
> thread lockring can go on. It is still tall enough for a single
> speed freewheel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Isn't it more like freewheel threads are track threads made longer
and without the lockring thread? Seems like the track thread was
there first -- viz the old Sturmeys and coasters with thread to
screw the cog on, rather than the newer splines.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Incidentally, why aren't there Fixie hubs with Sturmey & co
splines instead of the archaic threaded system? I mean, the cogs
are a lot cheaper, they have built-in chainline adjustment with
the raised shoulders and the two 1 mm spacers, and it's just an
objectively better design, especially for fastening on cogs that
might get reverse pressure. They're not used on hundreds of
millions of coaster brake hubs for nothing, after all.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This type of attachment only works well on centered chain lines and
only on steel. Slide-on sprockets that we have on cassettes today
were formerly secured by screwing on the last sprocket to prevent
fretting damage that would otherwise occur. It was only recently
that someone devised the detente style cover-nut that holds today's
gear clusters together. Had someone invented that forty years ago,
you probably wouldn't need to ask. Progress is slow.

Quoted message said:

Seems to me that a Sturmey three speed or a coaster brake are pretty
much identical in chainline etc. considerations to a track hub. They
don't seem particularly prone to fretting with the splined +
circular spring attachment. Are threaded track cogs typically made
of aluminum?

That is true but when you already have a thread standard, it's easy to
just use it on track hubs. Hubs were threaded and could accept a
track sprocket of a freewheel. Many of these were ridden with a
one-speed freewheel. That's why road bicycles had horizontal dropouts
for all those years, so you could ride a fixed gear. It's all tradition.

Typically I broke Campagnolo axles on my road bicycle regularly when I
had horizontal dropouts. As I mentioned, I copied the Diamant
vertical dropout from East Germany in 1960 and the rave was on. You
see how hard it is to introduce reasonable technical ideas even here on
wreck.bike.

Jobst Brandt

Mark Janeba said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are threaded track cogs typically made of aluminum?

No, but track hubs are.

Am I mis-remembering? I thought I had used both steel and
aluminum track cogs, in my brief fling with fixed-gear, 20 years
ago. I thought the aluminum cog was a Campy, not some rare,
exotic one-off affair.

Well, the question was "typically" 8)

I can't tell if there were aluminum track cogs for racing, so far
I've seen only steel ones and I'd assume aluminum to wear pretty
fast?

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer

Jobst Brandt said:

It was only recently that
someone devised the detente style cover-nut that holds today's gear
clusters together. Had someone invented that forty years ago, you
probably wouldn't need to ask. Progress is slow.

will 80-odd years ago do?

www.m-gineering.nl/retrog.htm

---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Helmut Springer said:

Mark Janeba said:

Quoted message said:

>Are threaded track cogs typically made of aluminum?

No, but track hubs are.

Am I mis-remembering? I thought I had used both steel and
aluminum track cogs, in my brief fling with fixed-gear, 20 years
ago. I thought the aluminum cog was a Campy, not some rare,
exotic one-off affair.

Well, the question was "typically" 8)

I can't tell if there were aluminum track cogs for racing, so far
I've seen only steel ones and I'd assume aluminum to wear pretty
fast?

Campy and Zeus both made alloy track cogs, and yes they did wear pretty
quickly. But there was an extreme lightness fad going on in the mid-late
70s and companies were happy to oblige with lightweight, fast wearing
parts.

--

John ([email hidden])

Marten Gerritsen said:

Quoted message said:

It was only recently that someone devised the detente style
cover-nut that holds today's gear clusters together. Had someone
invented that forty years ago, you probably wouldn't need to ask.
Progress is slow.

Quoted message said:

will 80-odd years ago do?
www.m-gineering.nl/retrog.htm

No, because they didn't have a detent lock nut as is evident from the
mashed removal slot in the retaining nut. Lotta force and pounding!

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

No, because they didn't have a detent lock nut as is evident from the
mashed removal slot in the retaining nut. Lotta force and pounding!

What do you mean by detent lock nut? The splines between it and the tool?

Jasper

Jasper Janssen said:

What do you mean by detent lock nut? The splines between it and
the tool?

Nope, the teeth on locknut and freehub, the ones that go "krkrkrkrk"
when you tighten it...

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer