Friction Shifting 10 sp

go ahead and do it you will be fine, just watch for overshifts!

Paul Kopit said:

I am building up a traditional steel frame and I am thinking of using
downtube shifters in friction mode with double cranks. I never had
problems shifting 7sp or 8sp cassettes with friction shifting. I was
wondering if anyone had experince with 10 sp. My concern is the the
distance between cogs is smaller and maybe the precision is too great
for friction shifting.

If I have to go to indexed shifting, I'll just install the Ergo that I
already have. It's about style and not being practical. I'm not
planning on any gear combinations that won't shift with brifters.

--

Gene

I tried friction shifting Campy 9 speed, but found it infuriatingly
difficult. I was using Shimano Ultegra DT shifters.

You can make Campy downtube levers. Just buy their "barend" levers and
a kit with the extra bits that you need to mount them on the downtube.
I think Le Tour do the kit.

I've got nice Campy 9 speed indexed downtube levers, which work a
treat, and are ultra-reliable. One of these days I'll buy the indexing
ring to go to 10 speed.

Regards,

Suzy

"Paul Kopit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am building up a traditional steel frame and I am thinking of using
downtube shifters in friction mode with double cranks. I never had
problems shifting 7sp or 8sp cassettes with friction shifting. I was
wondering if anyone had experince with 10 sp. My concern is the the
distance between cogs is smaller and maybe the precision is too great
for friction shifting.

If I have to go to indexed shifting, I'll just install the Ergo that I
already have. It's about style and not being practical. I'm not
planning on any gear combinations that won't shift with brifters.

These factors may not pertain to your situation, but... I prefer friction
because I have a 60cm frame, with shifters on the ends of aerobars. The
cable run is so long that it is difficult to keep indexing precise.

rsquared

Please let us know how it goes. I'm interested in doing the same, but would
love to hear your experience.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

"Paul Kopit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am building up a traditional steel frame and I am thinking of using
downtube shifters in friction mode with double cranks. I never had
problems shifting 7sp or 8sp cassettes with friction shifting. I was
wondering if anyone had experince with 10 sp. My concern is the the
distance between cogs is smaller and maybe the precision is too great
for friction shifting.

If I have to go to indexed shifting, I'll just install the Ergo that I
already have. It's about style and not being practical. I'm not
planning on any gear combinations that won't shift with brifters.

Paul Kopit said:

I am building up a traditional steel frame and I am thinking of using
downtube shifters in friction mode with double cranks. I never had
problems shifting 7sp or 8sp cassettes with friction shifting. I was
wondering if anyone had experince with 10 sp. My concern is the the
distance between cogs is smaller and maybe the precision is too great
for friction shifting.

If I have to go to indexed shifting, I'll just install the Ergo that I
already have. It's about style and not being practical. I'm not
planning on any gear combinations that won't shift with brifters.

Some riders note that it's a finer adjustment between cogs.
Not a big deal IMHO.
p.s. not all shifters can span the necessary throw for Ten.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

begin quoting rsquared <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

These factors may not pertain to your situation, but... I prefer friction
because I have a 60cm frame, with shifters on the ends of aerobars. The
cable run is so long that it is difficult to keep indexing precise.

That's odd, because indexed shifting works OK on tandems.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!
Today is Mania, March.

David Damerell said:

begin quoting rsquared <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

These factors may not pertain to your situation, but... I prefer friction
because I have a 60cm frame, with shifters on the ends of aerobars. The
cable run is so long that it is difficult to keep indexing precise.

That's odd, because indexed shifting works OK on tandems.

A tandem has essentially the same shifting system cable friction as a
half bike - my TT bike OTOH, has a lot more cable housing than either
of my tandems, and doesn't shift as well as a result (not "bad", just
not "as well"😉.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Paul Kopit said:

I am building up a traditional steel frame and I am thinking of using
downtube shifters in friction mode with double cranks. I never had
problems shifting 7sp or 8sp cassettes with friction shifting. I was
wondering if anyone had experince with 10 sp. My concern is the the
distance between cogs is smaller and maybe the precision is too great
for friction shifting.

If I have to go to indexed shifting, I'll just install the Ergo that I
already have. It's about style and not being practical. I'm not
planning on any gear combinations that won't shift with brifters.

Why not get a old style freewheel hub and use a freewheel??

!0s and frction is tough since everything is so close together.

I am running a DA 9 cassette (similar spacing to Campy 10) with a
Suntour Sprint rear derailleur, a Superbe Pro front derailleur, and
Campy NR/SR shifters (which pull just enough cable). Works well for me.
Personally, I like the shifting better than with wider spaced
freewheels. The Hyperglide cassette makes shifts very quiet. Yes, you
do have to be fairly precise in your shifts (which is why I'm replacing
the Campy shifters with Rivendell Silver power-ratchet type models),
but I got used to it quite quickly and I don't race this bike. When
the DA 9 cassette wears out, I will set this bike up with a 10-speed
cassette like my other bike. I expect it will work fine.

I understand this system might not work so well with a modern Shimano
derailleur with a floating pulley, but I don't know this from
experience-just heard it somewhere.

Andrew Karre

Paul Kopit said:

I am building up a traditional steel frame and I am thinking of using
downtube shifters in friction mode with double cranks. I never had
problems shifting 7sp or 8sp cassettes with friction shifting. I was
wondering if anyone had experince with 10 sp. My concern is the the
distance between cogs is smaller and maybe the precision is too great
for friction shifting.

If I have to go to indexed shifting, I'll just install the Ergo that

I

Quoted message said:

already have. It's about style and not being practical. I'm not
planning on any gear combinations that won't shift with brifters.

On 3 Mar 2005 06:25:35 -0800, "Andrew Karre" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Yes, you
do have to be fairly precise in your shifts (which is why I'm replacing
the Campy shifters with Rivendell Silver power-ratchet type models),

What does a 'power ratchet' do that makes it more precise?

rsquared said:

These factors may not pertain to your situation, but... I prefer
friction because I have a 60cm frame, with shifters on the ends of
aerobars. The cable run is so long that it is difficult to keep indexing
precise.

Is your cable run much longer than if you were using bar end shifters? I
also have a 60 cm frame, and I haven't had to adjust my indexing at all
since I bought the bike 6000+km ago. My rear cable gets routed internally
through the top tube, so this entire part of the cable run is in housing.

--
Benjamin Lewis

I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of
oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate
commerce. -- J. Edgar Hoover

Quoth Andrew Karre:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, you
do have to be fairly precise in your shifts (which is why I'm replacing
the Campy shifters with Rivendell Silver power-ratchet type models),

Paul Kopit queried:

Quoted message said:

What does a 'power ratchet' do that makes it more precise?

"Power Ratchet" is an advertising buzzword for a Suntour design, that
decouples the shift lever from the friction clutch when shifting in the
direction that pulls against the derailer's return spring.

With a pure friction lever, the friction has to at least equal the
maximum pull of the derailer spring. When these are close, it takes
almost no effort to push the lever forward (loosening the cable and the
spring,) because the spring is helping you push the lever forward.

However, when you pull backward on the lever, tightening the cable, you
are working against both the resistance of the friction clutch in the
shift lever _and_ the spring tension.

Tis creates an asymmetry of action between upshifting and downshifting.

With a "Power Rodentfeces" system, the ratchet disengages the friction
clutch as you pull the lever backward, so you're only working against
the spring. This gives a notably nicer feel to the shifter.

Other brands have solved this problem different ways. Shimano used to
use a spring in the shifter that opposed the derailer's spring. This
avoided the slightly "granular" feel created by the ratchet.

The legendary Simplex "Retrofriction" levers did somethin similar, not
sure how the internal mechanism worked, I think it was a pawl-less
ratchet of some sort.

Sheldon "None Of These Sysems Is Nearly As Good As A Modern Indexed
System" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
| A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; |
| an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty. |
| -- Sir Winston Churchill |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

David Damerell quoted somebody:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

These factors may not pertain to your situation, but... I prefer friction
because I have a 60cm frame, with shifters on the ends of aerobars. The
cable run is so long that it is difficult to keep indexing precise.

and added:

Quoted message said:

That's odd, because indexed shifting works OK on tandems.

That's even odder, because putting the shifters on aerobars usually
results in a less curvaceous run of cable housing from the shift levers
to the housing stops on the down tube.

I recommend that whoever the original poster is check out my Cables article:

http://sheldonbrown.com/cables

Sheldon "No Kinks" Brown
+------------------------------------------------+
| Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, |
| but most of the time he will pick himself up |
| and continue on. -- Sir Winston Churchill |
+------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Mea cupla for introducing undefined marketing-speak. Always irritating.

Not "nearly as good?" Well, I guess that depends on the definition of
"good." Mine includes being able to easily use a variety of different
rear derailleurs and cassettes that I have lying around (and may have
lying around in the future). It also encompasses the pleasing silence
and feel of friction. And for front derailleurs, indexing is nonsense
as far as I'm concerned.

I agree, though, that if you have one bike and one rear wheel set-up,
well-adjusted indexing is "good." That's not my situation, though.

Andrew Karre

begin quoting Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

David Damerell quoted somebody:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

These factors may not pertain to your situation, but... I prefer friction
because I have a 60cm frame, with shifters on the ends of aerobars. The
cable run is so long that it is difficult to keep indexing precise.

and added:

Quoted message said:

That's odd, because indexed shifting works OK on tandems.

That's even odder, because putting the shifters on aerobars usually
results in a less curvaceous run of cable housing from the shift levers
to the housing stops on the down tube.

Yes, I wondered about that when reading Andrew Muzi's reply; my tandem has
bar-end shifters on, which lead the cable in a half-circle, as well as a
longer run from the downtube stops with extra housing in.

What is the typical routing on aerobars?
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!
Today is Mania, March.

Andrew Karre said:

Mea cupla for introducing undefined marketing-speak. Always irritating.

Not "nearly as good?" Well, I guess that depends on the definition of
"good." Mine includes being able to easily use a variety of different
rear derailleurs and cassettes that I have lying around (and may have
lying around in the future). It also encompasses the pleasing silence
and feel of friction. And for front derailleurs, indexing is nonsense
as far as I'm concerned.

I agree, though, that if you have one bike and one rear wheel set-up,
well-adjusted indexing is "good." That's not my situation, though.

I'm not knocking your equipment choices, but I just want to point out that
my indexed shifter (Shimano Dura Ace) can be toggled to friction mode, as I
believe can others. I'm not sure what mechanism the friction setting uses,
but it appears to require the same amount of force for up/down shifting (I
only used it enough to check that it works this way).

I agree with your assessment of front indexing (nonsense).

--
Benjamin Lewis

I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of
oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate
commerce. -- J. Edgar Hoover

Benjamin Lewis said:

rsquared said:

These factors may not pertain to your situation, but... I prefer
friction because I have a 60cm frame, with shifters on the ends of
aerobars. The cable run is so long that it is difficult to keep
indexing precise.

Is your cable run much longer than if you were using bar end shifters? I
also have a 60 cm frame, and I haven't had to adjust my indexing at all
since I bought the bike 6000+km ago. My rear cable gets routed
internally through the top tube, so this entire part of the cable run is
in housing.

Oops, faulty memory at work. It's my rear brake that's routed through the
top tube; my rear shifter cable is exposed along the downtube and
chainstay.

--
Benjamin Lewis

I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of
oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate
commerce. -- J. Edgar Hoover

Paul Kopit said:

I am building up a traditional steel frame and I am thinking of using
downtube shifters in friction mode with double cranks. I never had
problems shifting 7sp or 8sp cassettes with friction shifting. I was
wondering if anyone had experince with 10 sp. My concern is the the
distance between cogs is smaller and maybe the precision is too great
for friction shifting.

If I have to go to indexed shifting, I'll just install the Ergo that I
already have. It's about style and not being practical. I'm not
planning on any gear combinations that won't shift with brifters.

I can get you part way there by saying that my 9 speed shifted fine with friction. That's with old Campy DT shifters on my old steel bike. I just didn't like it so I went to Egro. But, perhaps, it was because of me. My problem is that my hearing has become poor especially in the higher frequencies so I don't get the audible cues required for shifting with friction. It was disconcerting. I'd shift, then stand on the pedals to climb and BANG; I be in another gear. Finally, when I started asking riding buddies if my chain was making noise, I knew it was time for indexing on the old bike.

Steve Shapiro

Sheldon Brown said:

The legendary Simplex "Retrofriction" levers did somethin similar, not
sure how the internal mechanism worked, I think it was a pawl-less
ratchet of some sort.

A coil spring wound around the post about which the lever turned.
Pushing forward on the lever wound the spring tighter, causing its
internal diameter to shrink and tighten around the post, increasing
the friction. Pulling back did the opposite, reducing the friction.
It was the change in friction, rather than the spring force, that
gave it its nice feel (at least that's how I recall that it worked).
It also pulled less cable than a Record shifter, for the same arc,
so it needed a bigger throw. I used this for years; only got indexed
(Ergo) 'cause it came with a bike I got from a teammate.

Joe