Funky round fin

Pat said:

Okay, today I saw an interesting sight at the local pool. Guy was wearing a
snorkel, doing the breast stroke with his arms, and his feet were encased in
a funky round fin as he moved his feet in sort of a butterfly stroke.

This must have been really difficult for him, because he could only manage
25 meters before having to stop and rest. Have any of you swim coaches had
experience with this large round fin? Is it to make a person used to the
motion a butterfly stroke requires, or does it work on certain target
muscles?

Sounds like http://www.swimgear.co.za/monofins.htm

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, today I saw an interesting sight at the local pool. Guy was
wearing a snorkel, doing the breast stroke with his arms, and his feet
were encased in a funky round fin as he moved his feet in sort of a
butterfly stroke.

This must have been really difficult for him, because he could only
manage 25 meters before having to stop and rest. Have any of you swim
coaches had experience with this large round fin? Is it to make a
person used to the motion a butterfly stroke requires, or does it work
on certain target muscles?

Pat in TX

Monofins exist in a variety of sizes and shapes, although I can't say
I've seen one I'd call round.

I bought kid-sized long fins and donated them to my Y to use when
teaching butterfly (and, of course, other swim teachers can use them as
well). When I was taught fly as an adult, one of the first things my
instructor did was have me get long fins - it magnifies everything about
your dolphin kick in a good way.

One problem the monofin fixes that regular long fins don't is preventing
the legs from moving separately. If I had monofins, I think I'd use
them to teach fly. I imagine a Google on "monofin" would find some
interesting reading. I just tried - the Wiki isn't terribly helpful.

-S-

Quoted message said:

I bought kid-sized long fins and donated them to my Y to use when teaching
butterfly (and, of course, other swim teachers can use them as well).
When I was taught fly as an adult, one of the first things my instructor
did was have me get long fins - it magnifies everything about your dolphin
kick in a good way.

One problem the monofin fixes that regular long fins don't is preventing
the legs from moving separately. If I had monofins, I think I'd use them
to teach fly. I imagine a Google on "monofin" would find some interesting
reading. I just tried - the Wiki isn't terribly helpful.

-S-

Did you teach the butterfly/dolphin by having the kids use a snorkel?

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I bought kid-sized long fins and donated them to my Y to use when
teaching butterfly (and, of course, other swim teachers can use them
as well). When I was taught fly as an adult, one of the first things
my instructor did was have me get long fins - it magnifies everything
about your dolphin kick in a good way.

One problem the monofin fixes that regular long fins don't is
preventing the legs from moving separately. If I had monofins, I
think I'd use them to teach fly. I imagine a Google on "monofin"
would find some interesting reading. I just tried - the Wiki isn't
terribly helpful.

-S-

Did you teach the butterfly/dolphin by having the kids use a snorkel?

No, never, nor would I. We use a snorkel in the lifeguard class because
it can be useful in certain kinds of rescue situations, but never to
teach swimming.

The big thing, I feel, in teaching fly is timing, so I first teach them
to dolphin kick and breath every two kicks whether they need it or not.
The fins work well with a slower, more powerful dolphin kick and that's
what I encourage We follow that with one-armed butterfly, which has
most of the timing of the full-stroke but is much less intimidating, and
by that point they are ready to the full stroke and usually need only
relatively minor adjustments. I typically go through this little
progression every week and do it in 50's - down using the fly or dolphin
kick drill, back using backstroke.

-S-

Steve Freides said:

I bought kid-sized long fins and donated them to my Y to use when
teaching butterfly (and, of course, other swim teachers can use them as
well). When I was taught fly as an adult, one of the first things my
instructor did was have me get long fins - it magnifies everything about
your dolphin kick in a good way.

When you say long fins, you don't mean diving fins. You mean normal,
swimming fins. Yes? Diving fins would be torture.

Steve Freides said:

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, today I saw an interesting sight at the local pool. Guy was
wearing a snorkel, doing the breast stroke with his arms, and his feet
were encased in a funky round fin as he moved his feet in sort of a
butterfly stroke.

This must have been really difficult for him, because he could only
manage 25 meters before having to stop and rest. Have any of you swim
coaches had experience with this large round fin? Is it to make a
person used to the motion a butterfly stroke requires, or does it work
on certain target muscles?

Pat in TX

Monofins exist in a variety of sizes and shapes, although I can't say
I've seen one I'd call round.

I bought kid-sized long fins and donated them to my Y to use when
teaching butterfly (and, of course, other swim teachers can use them as
well). When I was taught fly as an adult, one of the first things my
instructor did was have me get long fins - it magnifies everything about
your dolphin kick in a good way.

One problem the monofin fixes that regular long fins don't is preventing
the legs from moving separately. If I had monofins, I think I'd use
them to teach fly. I imagine a Google on "monofin" would find some
interesting reading. I just tried - the Wiki isn't terribly helpful.

I think the terminology is important here. Swimmers should not be using
skin diving fins for dolphin kick training because they are too long. It
goes without saying that scuba fins are out too. Swimming fins are
significantly shorter than skin diving fins, but they are longer than,
for example, Zoomers, and other training fins.

These are scuba and skin diving fins. Too long for dolphin kick training:

http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,12942,

These are swimming fins:

http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,14072,

There are other popular models, including Churchill, Duck Feet, etc.

http://www.waveblasters.com/finschurchill.html
http://www.lincolnaquatics.com/shop/catalog/Inventory+Close-Outs+Specials/product.html?ProductID=96-907

mwsmith said:

Steve Freides said:

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, today I saw an interesting sight at the local pool. Guy was
wearing a snorkel, doing the breast stroke with his arms, and his feet
were encased in a funky round fin as he moved his feet in sort of a
butterfly stroke.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This must have been really difficult for him, because he could only
manage 25 meters before having to stop and rest. Have any of you swim
coaches had experience with this large round fin? Is it to make a
person used to the motion a butterfly stroke requires, or does it work
on certain target muscles?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

Monofins exist in a variety of sizes and shapes, although I can't say
I've seen one I'd call round.

Quoted message said:

I bought kid-sized long fins and donated them to my Y to use when
teaching butterfly (and, of course, other swim teachers can use them as
well). When I was taught fly as an adult, one of the first things my
instructor did was have me get long fins - it magnifies everything about
your dolphin kick in a good way.

Quoted message said:

One problem the monofin fixes that regular long fins don't is preventing
the legs from moving separately. If I had monofins, I think I'd use
them to teach fly. I imagine a Google on "monofin" would find some
interesting reading. I just tried - the Wiki isn't terribly helpful.

I think the terminology is important here. Swimmers should not be using
skin diving fins for dolphin kick training because they are too long. It
goes without saying that scuba fins are out too. Swimming fins are
significantly shorter than skin diving fins, but they are longer than,
for example, Zoomers, and other training fins.

These are scuba and skin diving fins. Too long for dolphin kick training:

http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,12942,

These are swimming fins:

http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,14072,

There are other popular models, including Churchill, Duck Feet, etc.

http://www.waveblasters.com/finschurchill.htmlhttp://www.lincolnaquatics.com/shop/catalog/Inventory+Close-Outs+Spec...

I doubt that too many swimmers use scuba or diving fins. They are too
expensive and probably too big and bulky for pools. Plus they are
usually sold in specialty stores. Most swimmers that I've seen use
snorkeling fins that you can buy for about $15 to $30 at walmart, or a
sporting goods store. Others use the swimmers' fins that you buy at
specialty swim stores, such as zoomers.

What Pat was referring to, I think, were monofins. Monofins are used
along with or without snorkels for pool speed competitions. They are a
single fin with two slots for both feet. They make you look like a
mermaid. large monofins are also used deep diving competitions. were
divers don't have to maneuver, but rather swim straight down and
straight up on an elevator. Monofins are specialty fins for speed w/o
maneuverability. They are no good for scuba or freediving.

I would think that monofins could be good for teaching butterfly.
Monofins force a good body undulation. They essentially reproduce a
dolphin kick. Body undulation starting with the stomach is essential
in butterfly. If you ever look at deep diving competitions, those guys
have a incredible undulation, and that is the secret of good
butterfly.

Andres

Quoted message said:

mwsmith said:

Steve Freides said:

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Okay, today I saw an interesting sight at the local pool. Guy was
> wearing a snorkel, doing the breast stroke with his arms, and his feet
> were encased in a funky round fin as he moved his feet in sort of a
> butterfly stroke.
> This must have been really difficult for him, because he could only
> manage 25 meters before having to stop and rest. Have any of you swim
> coaches had experience with this large round fin? Is it to make a
> person used to the motion a butterfly stroke requires, or does it work
> on certain target muscles?
> Pat in TX
Monofins exist in a variety of sizes and shapes, although I can't say
I've seen one I'd call round.
I bought kid-sized long fins and donated them to my Y to use when
teaching butterfly (and, of course, other swim teachers can use them as
well). When I was taught fly as an adult, one of the first things my
instructor did was have me get long fins - it magnifies everything about
your dolphin kick in a good way.
One problem the monofin fixes that regular long fins don't is preventing
the legs from moving separately. If I had monofins, I think I'd use
them to teach fly. I imagine a Google on "monofin" would find some
interesting reading. I just tried - the Wiki isn't terribly helpful.

I think the terminology is important here. Swimmers should not be using
skin diving fins for dolphin kick training because they are too long. It
goes without saying that scuba fins are out too. Swimming fins are
significantly shorter than skin diving fins, but they are longer than,
for example, Zoomers, and other training fins.

These are scuba and skin diving fins. Too long for dolphin kick training:

http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,12942,

These are swimming fins:

http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,14072,

There are other popular models, including Churchill, Duck Feet, etc.

http://www.waveblasters.com/finschurchill.htmlhttp://www.lincolnaquatics.com/shop/catalog/Inventory+Close-Outs+Spec...

I doubt that too many swimmers use scuba or diving fins. They are too
expensive and probably too big and bulky for pools. Plus they are
usually sold in specialty stores. Most swimmers that I've seen use
snorkeling fins that you can buy for about $15 to $30 at walmart, or a
sporting goods store. Others use the swimmers' fins that you buy at
specialty swim stores, such as zoomers.

What Pat was referring to, I think, were monofins. Monofins are used
along with or without snorkels for pool speed competitions. They are a
single fin with two slots for both feet. They make you look like a
mermaid. large monofins are also used deep diving competitions. were
divers don't have to maneuver, but rather swim straight down and
straight up on an elevator. Monofins are specialty fins for speed w/o
maneuverability. They are no good for scuba or freediving.

I would think that monofins could be good for teaching butterfly.
Monofins force a good body undulation. They essentially reproduce a
dolphin kick. Body undulation starting with the stomach is essential
in butterfly. If you ever look at deep diving competitions, those guys
have a incredible undulation, and that is the secret of good
butterfly.

Monofins are fine, but they are for racing, mainly. Obviously, if you
intend to swim in a monofin race, you must do some training wearing a
monofin. And they would certainly be useful in training for doing
butterfly as well, but I would be careful using them that way. I'm not a
monofin racer, but I think the kick used in a monofin race is smaller
than the standard, butterfly dolphin kick done on the surface (monofin
races are underwater).

But Steve referred to "long fins." To me that means fins like at the
Scubapro website at http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,12942,

These are skindiving (snorkeling) and scubadiving fins, and they are too
long for use in training for the butterfly. I have seen people use them
for underwater hockey, and I think they are crazy to use them that way.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

mwsmith said:

Steve Freides said:

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Okay, today I saw an interesting sight at the local pool. Guy was
> wearing a snorkel, doing the breast stroke with his arms, and his
> feet
> were encased in a funky round fin as he moved his feet in sort of
> a
> butterfly stroke.

Quoted message said:

> This must have been really difficult for him, because he could
> only
> manage 25 meters before having to stop and rest. Have any of you
> swim
> coaches had experience with this large round fin? Is it to make a
> person used to the motion a butterfly stroke requires, or does it
> work
> on certain target muscles?

Quoted message said:

> Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

Monofins exist in a variety of sizes and shapes, although I can't
say
I've seen one I'd call round.

Quoted message said:

I bought kid-sized long fins and donated them to my Y to use when
teaching butterfly (and, of course, other swim teachers can use
them as
well). When I was taught fly as an adult, one of the first things
my
instructor did was have me get long fins - it magnifies everything
about
your dolphin kick in a good way.

Quoted message said:

One problem the monofin fixes that regular long fins don't is
preventing
the legs from moving separately. If I had monofins, I think I'd
use
them to teach fly. I imagine a Google on "monofin" would find some
interesting reading. I just tried - the Wiki isn't terribly
helpful.

I think the terminology is important here. Swimmers should not be
using
skin diving fins for dolphin kick training because they are too long.
It
goes without saying that scuba fins are out too. Swimming fins are
significantly shorter than skin diving fins, but they are longer
than,
for example, Zoomers, and other training fins.

These are scuba and skin diving fins. Too long for dolphin kick
training:

http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,12942,

These are swimming fins:

http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,14072,

There are other popular models, including Churchill, Duck Feet, etc.

http://www.waveblasters.com/finschurchill.htmlhttp://www.lincolnaquatics.com/shop/catalog/Inventory+Close-Outs+Spec...

I doubt that too many swimmers use scuba or diving fins. They are too
expensive and probably too big and bulky for pools. Plus they are
usually sold in specialty stores. Most swimmers that I've seen use
snorkeling fins that you can buy for about $15 to $30 at walmart, or a
sporting goods store. Others use the swimmers' fins that you buy at
specialty swim stores, such as zoomers.

What Pat was referring to, I think, were monofins. Monofins are used
along with or without snorkels for pool speed competitions. They are a
single fin with two slots for both feet. They make you look like a
mermaid. large monofins are also used deep diving competitions. were
divers don't have to maneuver, but rather swim straight down and
straight up on an elevator. Monofins are specialty fins for speed w/o
maneuverability. They are no good for scuba or freediving.

I would think that monofins could be good for teaching butterfly.
Monofins force a good body undulation. They essentially reproduce a
dolphin kick. Body undulation starting with the stomach is essential
in butterfly. If you ever look at deep diving competitions, those guys
have a incredible undulation, and that is the secret of good
butterfly.

Regarding your last paragraph about body undulation, yes, I agree. One
thing I've heard said, but I confess I've never been able to get the
hang of it in my own butterfly swimming, is that good fly swimmer work
the kick in both directions, not just snapping the feet down. I imagine
I get some propulsion from coming back up but I know I don't have that
truly beautiful, dolphin-like undulation I've seen in the best fly
swimmer - it is a wonder to watch when someone gets it right.

And of course we are talking about swim fins, not scuba. I took a quick
look online, and the places I saw often label them as swim fins. I
couldn't find a scuba fin for sale at any swimming store.

The way I teach it is starting at the head and shoulders. I try to get
them to load up the posterior chain (back, hips, hamstrings) by getting
the chest down and the hips up. My running joke with them is that I'm
not happy if I don't see butts bobbing up and down in the water, and
getting their hips out of the water does seem to help. From that
"loaded" position, the idea I teach is to snap in a wave, starting with
chest up, moving through hips down and finally to feet down as almost an
afterthought to the hip motion. I'll have to say that getting people
who can't do fly to actually do it is probably the most satisfying part
of my swimming teaching since so many people come to the class thinking
they're never going to be able to do it.

-S-

Steve Freides said:

And of course we are talking about swim fins, not scuba.

Then call them swimming fins, not long fins.

Steve Freides said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

mwsmith said:

Steve Freides wrote:
> "Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> Okay, today I saw an interesting sight at the local pool. Guy was
>> wearing a snorkel, doing the breast stroke with his arms, and his
>> feet
>> were encased in a funky round fin as he moved his feet in sort of
>> a
>> butterfly stroke.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> This must have been really difficult for him, because he could
>> only
>> manage 25 meters before having to stop and rest. Have any of you
>> swim
>> coaches had experience with this large round fin? Is it to make a
>> person used to the motion a butterfly stroke requires, or does it
>> work
>> on certain target muscles?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Monofins exist in a variety of sizes and shapes, although I can't
> say
> I've seen one I'd call round.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I bought kid-sized long fins and donated them to my Y to use when
> teaching butterfly (and, of course, other swim teachers can use
> them as
> well). When I was taught fly as an adult, one of the first things
> my
> instructor did was have me get long fins - it magnifies everything
> about
> your dolphin kick in a good way.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> One problem the monofin fixes that regular long fins don't is
> preventing
> the legs from moving separately. If I had monofins, I think I'd
> use
> them to teach fly. I imagine a Google on "monofin" would find some
> interesting reading. I just tried - the Wiki isn't terribly
> helpful.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think the terminology is important here. Swimmers should not be
using
skin diving fins for dolphin kick training because they are too long.
It
goes without saying that scuba fins are out too. Swimming fins are
significantly shorter than skin diving fins, but they are longer
than,
for example, Zoomers, and other training fins.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

These are scuba and skin diving fins. Too long for dolphin kick
training:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,12942,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

These are swimming fins:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,14072,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There are other popular models, including Churchill, Duck Feet, etc.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.waveblasters.com/finschurchill.htmlhttp://www.lincolnaquat......

Quoted message said:

I doubt that too many swimmers use scuba or diving fins. They are too
expensive and probably too big and bulky for pools. Plus they are
usually sold in specialty stores. Most swimmers that I've seen use
snorkeling fins that you can buy for about $15 to $30 at walmart, or a
sporting goods store. Others use the swimmers' fins that you buy at
specialty swim stores, such as zoomers.

Quoted message said:

What Pat was referring to, I think, were monofins. Monofins are used
along with or without snorkels for pool speed competitions. They are a
single fin with two slots for both feet. They make you look like a
mermaid. large monofins are also used deep diving competitions. were
divers don't have to maneuver, but rather swim straight down and
straight up on an elevator. Monofins are specialty fins for speed w/o
maneuverability. They are no good for scuba or freediving.

Quoted message said:

I would think that monofins could be good for teaching butterfly.
Monofins force a good body undulation. They essentially reproduce a
dolphin kick. Body undulation starting with the stomach is essential
in butterfly. If you ever look at deep diving competitions, those guys
have a incredible undulation, and that is the secret of good
butterfly.

Regarding your last paragraph about body undulation, yes, I agree. One
thing I've heard said, but I confess I've never been able to get the
hang of it in my own butterfly swimming, is that good fly swimmer work
the kick in both directions, not just snapping the feet down. I imagine
I get some propulsion from coming back up but I know I don't have that
truly beautiful, dolphin-like undulation I've seen in the best fly
swimmer - it is a wonder to watch when someone gets it right.

And of course we are talking about swim fins, not scuba. I took a quick
look online, and the places I saw often label them as swim fins. I
couldn't find a scuba fin for sale at any swimming store.

The way I teach it is starting at the head and shoulders. I try to get
them to load up the posterior chain (back, hips, hamstrings) by getting
the chest down and the hips up. My running joke with them is that I'm
not happy if I don't see butts bobbing up and down in the water, and
getting their hips out of the water does seem to help. From that
"loaded" position, the idea I teach is to snap in a wave, starting with
chest up, moving through hips down and finally to feet down as almost an
afterthought to the hip motion. I'll have to say that getting people
who can't do fly to actually do it is probably the most satisfying part
of my swimming teaching since so many people come to the class thinking
they're never going to be able to do it.

-S-

I used to do fly the way you described. Then someone on this group
posted something about focusing on diving in. I started doing this.
The idea is that you dive into the water and try to tuck the head
between the arms. That seems to generate momentum for the torso to go
in and then bend back at the waist and aim up. I discovered that the
secret of fly is in the stomach and back, not in the arms and legs.

Someone posted a free diving website several months ago. They have
some videos of free divers. I am sure that they have them in you tube.
Check out the undulating motion.

Andres

Steve Freides said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

mwsmith said:

Steve Freides wrote:
> "Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> Okay, today I saw an interesting sight at the local pool. Guy was
>> wearing a snorkel, doing the breast stroke with his arms, and his
>> feet
>> were encased in a funky round fin as he moved his feet in sort of
>> a
>> butterfly stroke.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> This must have been really difficult for him, because he could
>> only
>> manage 25 meters before having to stop and rest. Have any of you
>> swim
>> coaches had experience with this large round fin? Is it to make a
>> person used to the motion a butterfly stroke requires, or does it
>> work
>> on certain target muscles?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Monofins exist in a variety of sizes and shapes, although I can't
> say
> I've seen one I'd call round.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I bought kid-sized long fins and donated them to my Y to use when
> teaching butterfly (and, of course, other swim teachers can use
> them as
> well). When I was taught fly as an adult, one of the first things
> my
> instructor did was have me get long fins - it magnifies everything
> about
> your dolphin kick in a good way.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> One problem the monofin fixes that regular long fins don't is
> preventing
> the legs from moving separately. If I had monofins, I think I'd
> use
> them to teach fly. I imagine a Google on "monofin" would find some
> interesting reading. I just tried - the Wiki isn't terribly
> helpful.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think the terminology is important here. Swimmers should not be
using
skin diving fins for dolphin kick training because they are too long.
It
goes without saying that scuba fins are out too. Swimming fins are
significantly shorter than skin diving fins, but they are longer
than,
for example, Zoomers, and other training fins.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

These are scuba and skin diving fins. Too long for dolphin kick
training:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,12942,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

These are swimming fins:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,14072,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There are other popular models, including Churchill, Duck Feet, etc.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.waveblasters.com/finschurchill.htmlhttp://www.lincolnaquat......

Quoted message said:

I doubt that too many swimmers use scuba or diving fins. They are too
expensive and probably too big and bulky for pools. Plus they are
usually sold in specialty stores. Most swimmers that I've seen use
snorkeling fins that you can buy for about $15 to $30 at walmart, or a
sporting goods store. Others use the swimmers' fins that you buy at
specialty swim stores, such as zoomers.

Quoted message said:

What Pat was referring to, I think, were monofins. Monofins are used
along with or without snorkels for pool speed competitions. They are a
single fin with two slots for both feet. They make you look like a
mermaid. large monofins are also used deep diving competitions. were
divers don't have to maneuver, but rather swim straight down and
straight up on an elevator. Monofins are specialty fins for speed w/o
maneuverability. They are no good for scuba or freediving.

Quoted message said:

I would think that monofins could be good for teaching butterfly.
Monofins force a good body undulation. They essentially reproduce a
dolphin kick. Body undulation starting with the stomach is essential
in butterfly. If you ever look at deep diving competitions, those guys
have a incredible undulation, and that is the secret of good
butterfly.

Regarding your last paragraph about body undulation, yes, I agree. One
thing I've heard said, but I confess I've never been able to get the
hang of it in my own butterfly swimming, is that good fly swimmer work
the kick in both directions, not just snapping the feet down. I imagine
I get some propulsion from coming back up but I know I don't have that
truly beautiful, dolphin-like undulation I've seen in the best fly
swimmer - it is a wonder to watch when someone gets it right.

And of course we are talking about swim fins, not scuba. I took a quick
look online, and the places I saw often label them as swim fins. I
couldn't find a scuba fin for sale at any swimming store.

The way I teach it is starting at the head and shoulders. I try to get
them to load up the posterior chain (back, hips, hamstrings) by getting
the chest down and the hips up. My running joke with them is that I'm
not happy if I don't see butts bobbing up and down in the water, and
getting their hips out of the water does seem to help. From that
"loaded" position, the idea I teach is to snap in a wave, starting with
chest up, moving through hips down and finally to feet down as almost an
afterthought to the hip motion. I'll have to say that getting people
who can't do fly to actually do it is probably the most satisfying part
of my swimming teaching since so many people come to the class thinking
they're never going to be able to do it.

-S-

Ok, check it out. This guy is a dolphin.

Andres

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Dec 4, 1:29 am, mwsmith <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Steve Freides wrote:
> > "Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> >news:[email hidden]...
> >> Okay, today I saw an interesting sight at the local pool. Guy
> >> was
> >> wearing a snorkel, doing the breast stroke with his arms, and
> >> his
> >> feet
> >> were encased in a funky round fin as he moved his feet in sort
> >> of
> >> a
> >> butterfly stroke.

Quoted message said:

> >> This must have been really difficult for him, because he could
> >> only
> >> manage 25 meters before having to stop and rest. Have any of
> >> you
> >> swim
> >> coaches had experience with this large round fin? Is it to make
> >> a
> >> person used to the motion a butterfly stroke requires, or does
> >> it
> >> work
> >> on certain target muscles?

Quoted message said:

> >> Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

> > Monofins exist in a variety of sizes and shapes, although I
> > can't
> > say
> > I've seen one I'd call round.

Quoted message said:

> > I bought kid-sized long fins and donated them to my Y to use
> > when
> > teaching butterfly (and, of course, other swim teachers can use
> > them as
> > well). When I was taught fly as an adult, one of the first
> > things
> > my
> > instructor did was have me get long fins - it magnifies
> > everything
> > about
> > your dolphin kick in a good way.

Quoted message said:

> > One problem the monofin fixes that regular long fins don't is
> > preventing
> > the legs from moving separately. If I had monofins, I think I'd
> > use
> > them to teach fly. I imagine a Google on "monofin" would find
> > some
> > interesting reading. I just tried - the Wiki isn't terribly
> > helpful.

Quoted message said:

> I think the terminology is important here. Swimmers should not be
> using
> skin diving fins for dolphin kick training because they are too
> long.
> It
> goes without saying that scuba fins are out too. Swimming fins are
> significantly shorter than skin diving fins, but they are longer
> than,
> for example, Zoomers, and other training fins.

Quoted message said:

> These are scuba and skin diving fins. Too long for dolphin kick
> training:

Quoted message said:

>http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,12942,

Quoted message said:

> These are swimming fins:

Quoted message said:

>http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,14072,

Quoted message said:

> There are other popular models, including Churchill, Duck Feet,
> etc.

Quoted message said:

>http://www.waveblasters.com/finschurchill.htmlhttp://www.lincolnaquat......

Quoted message said:

I doubt that too many swimmers use scuba or diving fins. They are
too
expensive and probably too big and bulky for pools. Plus they are
usually sold in specialty stores. Most swimmers that I've seen use
snorkeling fins that you can buy for about $15 to $30 at walmart,
or a
sporting goods store. Others use the swimmers' fins that you buy at
specialty swim stores, such as zoomers.

Quoted message said:

What Pat was referring to, I think, were monofins. Monofins are
used
along with or without snorkels for pool speed competitions. They
are a
single fin with two slots for both feet. They make you look like a
mermaid. large monofins are also used deep diving competitions.
were
divers don't have to maneuver, but rather swim straight down and
straight up on an elevator. Monofins are specialty fins for speed
w/o
maneuverability. They are no good for scuba or freediving.

Quoted message said:

I would think that monofins could be good for teaching butterfly.
Monofins force a good body undulation. They essentially reproduce a
dolphin kick. Body undulation starting with the stomach is
essential
in butterfly. If you ever look at deep diving competitions, those
guys
have a incredible undulation, and that is the secret of good
butterfly.

Regarding your last paragraph about body undulation, yes, I agree.
One
thing I've heard said, but I confess I've never been able to get the
hang of it in my own butterfly swimming, is that good fly swimmer
work
the kick in both directions, not just snapping the feet down. I
imagine
I get some propulsion from coming back up but I know I don't have
that
truly beautiful, dolphin-like undulation I've seen in the best fly
swimmer - it is a wonder to watch when someone gets it right.

And of course we are talking about swim fins, not scuba. I took a
quick
look online, and the places I saw often label them as swim fins. I
couldn't find a scuba fin for sale at any swimming store.

The way I teach it is starting at the head and shoulders. I try to
get
them to load up the posterior chain (back, hips, hamstrings) by
getting
the chest down and the hips up. My running joke with them is that
I'm
not happy if I don't see butts bobbing up and down in the water, and
getting their hips out of the water does seem to help. From that
"loaded" position, the idea I teach is to snap in a wave, starting
with
chest up, moving through hips down and finally to feet down as almost
an
afterthought to the hip motion. I'll have to say that getting people
who can't do fly to actually do it is probably the most satisfying
part
of my swimming teaching since so many people come to the class
thinking
they're never going to be able to do it.

-S-

I used to do fly the way you described. Then someone on this group
posted something about focusing on diving in. I started doing this.
The idea is that you dive into the water and try to tuck the head
between the arms. That seems to generate momentum for the torso to go
in and then bend back at the waist and aim up. I discovered that the
secret of fly is in the stomach and back, not in the arms and legs.

Someone posted a free diving website several months ago. They have
some videos of free divers. I am sure that they have them in you tube.
Check out the undulating motion.

Andres

Sounds good to me. It's something I do, too. My teacher suggested
thinking about jumping/diving over a barrel in front and that's what I
imagine, kind of diving over one barrel and then going under the next.
The only problem I've found with thinking of diving is that it can cause
one to get too "into" the up and down of the stroke and therefore reduce
forward progress for the same effort.

Thanks for the freediving link in your other post - he was a dolphin,
indeed.

-S-

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Dec 4, 1:29 am, mwsmith <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Steve Freides wrote:
> > "Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> >news:[email hidden]...
> >> Okay, today I saw an interesting sight at the local pool. Guy
> >> was
> >> wearing a snorkel, doing the breast stroke with his arms, and
> >> his
> >> feet
> >> were encased in a funky round fin as he moved his feet in sort
> >> of
> >> a
> >> butterfly stroke.

Quoted message said:

> >> This must have been really difficult for him, because he could
> >> only
> >> manage 25 meters before having to stop and rest. Have any of
> >> you
> >> swim
> >> coaches had experience with this large round fin? Is it to make
> >> a
> >> person used to the motion a butterfly stroke requires, or does
> >> it
> >> work
> >> on certain target muscles?

Quoted message said:

> >> Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

> > Monofins exist in a variety of sizes and shapes, although I
> > can't
> > say
> > I've seen one I'd call round.

Quoted message said:

> > I bought kid-sized long fins and donated them to my Y to use
> > when
> > teaching butterfly (and, of course, other swim teachers can use
> > them as
> > well). When I was taught fly as an adult, one of the first
> > things
> > my
> > instructor did was have me get long fins - it magnifies
> > everything
> > about
> > your dolphin kick in a good way.

Quoted message said:

> > One problem the monofin fixes that regular long fins don't is
> > preventing
> > the legs from moving separately. If I had monofins, I think I'd
> > use
> > them to teach fly. I imagine a Google on "monofin" would find
> > some
> > interesting reading. I just tried - the Wiki isn't terribly
> > helpful.

Quoted message said:

> I think the terminology is important here. Swimmers should not be
> using
> skin diving fins for dolphin kick training because they are too
> long.
> It
> goes without saying that scuba fins are out too. Swimming fins are
> significantly shorter than skin diving fins, but they are longer
> than,
> for example, Zoomers, and other training fins.

Quoted message said:

> These are scuba and skin diving fins. Too long for dolphin kick
> training:

Quoted message said:

>http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,12942,

Quoted message said:

> These are swimming fins:

Quoted message said:

>http://www.scubapro.com/#,en_US;contenthandler,14072,

Quoted message said:

> There are other popular models, including Churchill, Duck Feet,
> etc.

Quoted message said:

>http://www.waveblasters.com/finschurchill.htmlhttp://www.lincolnaquat......

Quoted message said:

I doubt that too many swimmers use scuba or diving fins. They are
too
expensive and probably too big and bulky for pools. Plus they are
usually sold in specialty stores. Most swimmers that I've seen use
snorkeling fins that you can buy for about $15 to $30 at walmart,
or a
sporting goods store. Others use the swimmers' fins that you buy at
specialty swim stores, such as zoomers.

Quoted message said:

What Pat was referring to, I think, were monofins. Monofins are
used
along with or without snorkels for pool speed competitions. They
are a
single fin with two slots for both feet. They make you look like a
mermaid. large monofins are also used deep diving competitions.
were
divers don't have to maneuver, but rather swim straight down and
straight up on an elevator. Monofins are specialty fins for speed
w/o
maneuverability. They are no good for scuba or freediving.

Quoted message said:

I would think that monofins could be good for teaching butterfly.
Monofins force a good body undulation. They essentially reproduce a
dolphin kick. Body undulation starting with the stomach is
essential
in butterfly. If you ever look at deep diving competitions, those
guys
have a incredible undulation, and that is the secret of good
butterfly.

Regarding your last paragraph about body undulation, yes, I agree.
One
thing I've heard said, but I confess I've never been able to get the
hang of it in my own butterfly swimming, is that good fly swimmer
work
the kick in both directions, not just snapping the feet down. I
imagine
I get some propulsion from coming back up but I know I don't have
that
truly beautiful, dolphin-like undulation I've seen in the best fly
swimmer - it is a wonder to watch when someone gets it right.

And of course we are talking about swim fins, not scuba. I took a
quick
look online, and the places I saw often label them as swim fins. I
couldn't find a scuba fin for sale at any swimming store.

The way I teach it is starting at the head and shoulders. I try to
get
them to load up the posterior chain (back, hips, hamstrings) by
getting
the chest down and the hips up. My running joke with them is that
I'm
not happy if I don't see butts bobbing up and down in the water, and
getting their hips out of the water does seem to help. From that
"loaded" position, the idea I teach is to snap in a wave, starting
with
chest up, moving through hips down and finally to feet down as almost
an
afterthought to the hip motion. I'll have to say that getting people
who can't do fly to actually do it is probably the most satisfying
part
of my swimming teaching since so many people come to the class
thinking
they're never going to be able to do it.

-S-

I used to do fly the way you described. Then someone on this group
posted something about focusing on diving in. I started doing this.
The idea is that you dive into the water and try to tuck the head
between the arms. That seems to generate momentum for the torso to go
in and then bend back at the waist and aim up. I discovered that the
secret of fly is in the stomach and back, not in the arms and legs.

Someone posted a free diving website several months ago. They have
some videos of free divers. I am sure that they have them in you tube.
Check out the undulating motion.

Andres

Sounds good to me. It's something I do, too. My teacher suggested
thinking about jumping/diving over a barrel in front and that's what I
imagine, kind of diving over one barrel and then going under the next.
The only problem I've found with thinking of diving is that it can cause
one to get too "into" the up and down of the stroke and therefore reduce
forward progress for the same effort.

Thanks for the freediving link in your other post - he was a dolphin,
indeed.

-S-