Funny pain

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by David Hallswort, Sep 16, 2003.

  1. Whilst out running today (~15km, flat, roads and parkland paths) I ended up with a funny pain on the
    underside of my right medial maleolus of my right ankle. What can cause this? I am flat-footed with
    femoral-retroversion, but any pain I feel usually manifests as anterior tibial pain.

    Cheers for any input, Dave

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    To email, remove SPAM.com and replace with wadham DOT oxford DOT ac DOT uk
     
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  2. In article <[email protected]>, David Hallsworth <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Whilst out running today (~15km, flat, roads and parkland paths) I ended up with a funny pain on
    > the underside of my right medial maleolus of my right ankle. What can cause this? I am flat-footed
    > with femoral-retroversion, but any pain I feel usually manifests as anterior tibial pain.
    >
    > Cheers for any input, Dave

    olklore #4

    I'd look at the posterior tibialis, that muscle behind the shin bone on the inside.

    1. You are seated
    2. Left leg crossed on right thigh so outside of left leg rests on right thigh about 3 or 4 inches
    above right knee.
    3. place right thumb below left shin bone closest to you so it rests on the posterior tibialis
    4. Right hand rest on the shin bone.
    5. Place the left hand next to the right hand on the shin bone so that the left thumb rests on top
    of the right thumb.
    6. Make small (emphasis on small) and smooth (emphasis on smooth) circles with the left foot so
    there is no (spelled NO) jerkiness - otherwise you're just straining tendon.
    7. As you make the circle and the left toe goes downward, push in with the thumbs. With each circle
    move the thumbs about a quarter of an inch further up the leg.
    8. Find the spot that creates most pain and push more lightly at that spot so as not to create
    excrutiating pain and then move thumbs away first upward and then away downward, pushing harder
    so that you can feel the muscle under your thumbs let go.
    9. If you push too hard, go too fast, wince the face, stop breathing because of the pain, go too
    deep, you'll get the reverse of what you want.
    10. What you want is that posterior tibialis to let go so that your circle can move easily. Usually
    if it is bruised, the blood came from up above where the muscle tear took place and gravity let
    it settle where the bruise
    is.
    11. You'd like also to make sure that the posterior tibialis is not flush up again the shin bone.
    There should be some space where your thumb can go up that groove between the posterior shin
    muscle and the shin bone.

    Orgradually work to get it back, since if it's not there, then your shin is holding and probably the
    fascia won't allow the muscle to go through its range of motion and also the micro tears of the
    muscle or at the muscle tendon junction of the posterior shin muscle has scarred and also decreases
    the range of motion for the posterior shin.

    Let us know how it goes and what you learn so that we can all learn if my folklore worked for you,
    or was just folklore that needed to be discarded because it didn't work.

    In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
    Clinic, est. 1975

    Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
     
  3. All jogger pain is funny to me. Can you be more specific?
     
  4. Thanks Ozzie. I tried that this morning and although the pain from yesterday is gone, there are
    still some definite tender areas, so I'll massage the posterior tibialis later on in the hope of
    fully ridding myself of and aches! Cheers for the advice - if it happens again, Ill be sure to do
    that straight away.

    As an aside, if something is sore when you are running, but not sore the next day, is that OK from a
    long-term injury point of view. For example, if I get a pain whilst running - which luckily isn't
    very often - I can tell whether the pain is just soreness that will vanish within a couple of hours,
    or the first signs of injury. Obviously, no pain is best situation, but if something becomes tender
    during a long-run, is it best to carry on the run or walk?

    Best, Dave

    --
    To email, remove SPAM.com and replace with wadham DOT oxford DOT ac DOT uk

    "Ozzie Gontang" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:140920031614133569%[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, David Hallsworth
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Whilst out running today (~15km, flat, roads and parkland paths) I ended
    up
    > > with a funny pain on the underside of my right medial maleolus of my
    right
    > > ankle. What can cause this? I am flat-footed with
    femoral-retroversion,
    > > but any pain I feel usually manifests as anterior tibial pain.
    > >
    > > Cheers for any input, Dave
    >
    >
    > olklore #4
    >
    > I'd look at the posterior tibialis, that muscle behind the shin bone on
    the
    > inside.
    >
    > 1. You are seated
    > 2. Left leg crossed on right thigh so outside of left leg rests on right thigh about 3 or 4
    > inches above right knee.
    > 3. place right thumb below left shin bone closest to you so it rests on
    the
    > posterior tibialis
    > 4. Right hand rest on the shin bone.
    > 5. Place the left hand next to the right hand on the shin bone so that the left thumb rests on
    > top of the right thumb.
    > 6. Make small (emphasis on small) and smooth (emphasis on smooth) circles

    > with the left foot so there is no (spelled NO) jerkiness - otherwise you're just straining tendon.
    > 7. As you make the circle and the left toe goes downward, push in with the thumbs. With each
    > circle move the thumbs about a quarter of an inch
    further
    > up the leg.
    > 8. Find the spot that creates most pain and push more lightly at that spot so as not to create
    > excrutiating pain and then move thumbs away first
    upward
    > and then away downward, pushing harder so that you can feel the muscle
    under
    > your thumbs let go.
    > 9. If you push too hard, go too fast, wince the face, stop breathing
    because
    > of the pain, go too deep, you'll get the reverse of what you want.
    > 10. What you want is that posterior tibialis to let go so that your circle can move easily.
    > Usually if it is bruised, the blood came from up above where the muscle tear took place and
    > gravity let it settle where the
    bruise
    > is.
    > 11. You'd like also to make sure that the posterior tibialis is not flush
    up
    > again the shin bone. There should be some space where your thumb can go up that groove between the
    > posterior shin muscle and the shin bone.
    >
    > Orgradually work to get it back, since if it's not there, then your shin
    is
    > holding and probably the fascia won't allow the muscle to go through its range of motion and also
    > the micro tears of the muscle or at the muscle tendon junction of the posterior shin muscle has
    > scarred and also decreases the range of motion for the posterior shin.
    >
    > Let us know how it goes and what you learn so that we can all learn if my folklore worked for you,
    > or was just folklore that needed to be discarded because it didn't work.
    >
    >
    > In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
    > Clinic, est. 1975
    >
    > Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
     
  5. Peter Ashby

    Peter Ashby Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, "David Hallsworth" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    > As an aside, if something is sore when you are running, but not sore the next day, is that OK from
    > a long-term injury point of view. For example, if I get a pain whilst running - which luckily
    > isn't very often - I can tell whether the pain is just soreness that will vanish within a couple
    > of hours, or the first signs of injury. Obviously, no pain is best situation, but if something
    > becomes tender during a long-run, is it best to carry on the run or walk?
    >
    My rule is always not to worry about a pain that disappears on warmup, like that achilles tendon
    that had been problematic but stopped hurting after about a mile so I did the 20miler. As for what
    you do if something begins to hurt during a run that depends on how much and what your options for
    returning are. If you can run, slow down so as not to make it too much worse. Walking a long
    distance in thin running shorts can give you cold legs which is not a good idea.

    If, as used to be my wont, you turn an ankle while 5miles from home, you hop until you encounter a
    clubmate with car who can give you a lift. The benefits of club membership are many and diverse.

    Peter

    --
    Peter Ashby School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland To assume that I speak for the
    University of Dundee is to be deluded. Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.
     
  6. In article <[email protected]>, David Hallsworth <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Thanks Ozzie. I tried that this morning and although the pain from yesterday is gone, there are
    > still some definite tender areas, so I'll massage the posterior tibialis later on in the hope of
    > fully ridding myself of and aches! Cheers for the advice - if it happens again, Ill be sure to do
    > that straight away.
    >
    > As an aside, if something is sore when you are running, but not sore the next day, is that OK from
    > a long-term injury point of view. For example, if I get a pain whilst running - which luckily
    > isn't very often - I can tell whether the pain is just soreness that will vanish within a couple
    > of hours, or the first signs of injury. Obviously, no pain is best situation, but if something
    > becomes tender during a long-run, is it best to carry on the run or walk?
    >
    > Best, Dave

    Dave,

    If you massage out the calves as in http://www.mindfulness.com, you'll find that there's pain in the
    calf that you had no idea was there. When a muscle is hurting it does what it needs is contract so
    that there will not be pain. When it happens enough, the fascia (sausage skin) around the muscle
    shortens and like a tight stocking won't allow the muscle under it to let go and move though its
    full contraction and relaxation. So when people stretch, they often overstretch the uninjured muscle
    fibers at either end of the knot and when those portions get overstretched they join the knot.

    During a run I will stop several times to work out the muscles. Often where the pain appears is
    the location of where the symptom occurs and may not be the area where the real soreness and
    muscle issue is.

    Your best feedback is taking your fingers and thumb and pushing in where the muscles are to see if
    you can feel the knot or where the tight muscle when pushsed gives off it feedback that it is
    troubled: pain.

    Calves/shins; posterior tibialis and peroneus; quads/ hamstrings; quads and gluts;

    Some thoughts.

    In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
    Clinic, est. 1975

    Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
     
  7. In article <[email protected]>, Peter Ashby
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>, "David Hallsworth" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > As an aside, if something is sore when you are running, but not sore the next day, is that OK
    > > from a long-term injury point of view. For example, if I get a pain whilst running - which
    > > luckily isn't very often - I can tell whether the pain is just soreness that will vanish within
    > > a couple of hours, or the first signs of injury. Obviously, no pain is best situation, but if
    > > something becomes tender during a long-run, is it best to carry on the run or walk?
    > >
    > My rule is always not to worry about a pain that disappears on warmup, like that achilles tendon
    > that had been problematic but stopped hurting after about a mile so I did the 20miler. As for what
    > you do if something begins to hurt during a run that depends on how much and what your options for
    > returning are. If you can run, slow down so as not to make it too much worse. Walking a long
    > distance in thin running shorts can give you cold legs which is not a good idea.
    >
    > If, as used to be my wont, you turn an ankle while 5miles from home, you hop until you encounter a
    > clubmate with car who can give you a lift. The benefits of club membership are many and diverse.
    >
    > Peter

    Peter,

    As training runs are for training the body to do something that it will be able to do because of the
    training, muscle soreness that is painful at first can be masked by endorphins or that a portion of
    the muscle is being overstretched or strained which give the feeling that the pain is gone. To see
    what I mean, use the massage of the calf as seen in http://www.mindfulness.com/of1.asp and you
    should find that you didn't know that there was that much discomfort in the calfe because you didn't
    feel it. The calf is protecting itself so you're often surprised at the tightness.

    I may stop 5 to 10 times during a training run so I can maintain my speed throughout. During those
    stops I can massage out calves, shins, quads, hams and lower back.

    Sometimes the resulting injury is due to the final straw that broke the camels back. Most of us will
    look back and think there's one specific moment rather than a a build up of 10,000 small irritants
    that add up to the final injury.

    In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
    Clinic, est. 1975

    Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
     
  8. Peter Ashby

    Peter Ashby Guest

    In article <150920030513127672%[email protected]>, Ozzie Gontang
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > As training runs are for training the body to do something that it will be able to do because of
    > the training, muscle soreness that is painful at first can be masked by endorphins or that a
    > portion of the muscle is being overstretched or strained which give the feeling that the pain is
    > gone. To see what I mean, use the massage of the calf as seen in
    > http://www.mindfulness.com/of1.asp and you should find that you didn't know that there was that
    > much discomfort in the calfe because you didn't feel it. The calf is protecting itself so you're
    > often surprised at the tightness.

    Then there is the injury that in fact is well on the mend and will not be harmed by exercising on it
    and may in fact benefit from the increased blood flow engendered in order to complete repair. I
    would submit that any injury that was sore for as long as it takes for enough endorphins etc to
    build up is too sore to run on. The achilles in my example stopped being felt after one mile, gave
    not a twitch over the suceeding 19 hilly ones and has never twitched again. But it was probably the
    week before wearing slight heel lifts in my normal shoes that fixed it.

    BTW I don't have tight muscles, my joints are very loose so they are naturally loose. Every physio
    who has ever asked me to stretch my calves has been amazed at the angles I can achieve between my
    foot and lower leg.

    Peter

    --
    Peter Ashby School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland To assume that I speak for the
    University of Dundee is to be deluded. Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.
     
  9. Thanks for the feedback.

    Ozzie

    In article <[email protected]>, Peter Ashby
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > In article <150920030513127672%[email protected]>, Ozzie Gontang
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > As training runs are for training the body to do something that it will be able to do because of
    > > the training, muscle soreness that is painful at first can be masked by endorphins or that a
    > > portion of the muscle is being overstretched or strained which give the feeling that the pain is
    > > gone. To see what I mean, use the massage of the calf as seen in
    > > http://www.mindfulness.com/of1.asp and you should find that you didn't know that there was that
    > > much discomfort in the calfe because you didn't feel it. The calf is protecting itself so you're
    > > often surprised at the tightness.
    >
    > Then there is the injury that in fact is well on the mend and will not be harmed by exercising on
    > it and may in fact benefit from the increased blood flow engendered in order to complete repair. I
    > would submit that any injury that was sore for as long as it takes for enough endorphins etc to
    > build up is too sore to run on. The achilles in my example stopped being felt after one mile, gave
    > not a twitch over the suceeding 19 hilly ones and has never twitched again. But it was probably
    > the week before wearing slight heel lifts in my normal shoes that fixed it.
    >
    > BTW I don't have tight muscles, my joints are very loose so they are naturally loose. Every physio
    > who has ever asked me to stretch my calves has been amazed at the angles I can achieve between my
    > foot and lower leg.
    >
    > Peter
     
  10. Kaz Kylheku

    Kaz Kylheku Guest

    "David Hallsworth" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Whilst out running today (~15km, flat, roads and parkland paths) I ended up with a funny pain on
    > the underside of my right medial maleolus of my right ankle. What can cause this? I am flat-footed
    > with femoral-retroversion, but any pain I feel usually manifests as anterior tibial pain.

    Remedy: stop running; put down heavy anatomy textbook; resume running.
     
  11. > Remedy: stop running; put down heavy anatomy textbook; resume running.

    I could do, but the consultant in charge of my firm at med school would hit me with a heavier book,
    and I hear concussion is bad for speed-work.

    Dave
     
  12. Peter Ashby

    Peter Ashby Guest

    David Hallsworth <[email protected]> wrote:

    > > Remedy: stop running; put down heavy anatomy textbook; resume running.
    >
    > I could do, but the consultant in charge of my firm at med school would hit me with a heavier
    > book, and I hear concussion is bad for speed-work.
    >
    A chap doing his PhD up in Anatomy while I did mine down in Physiology submitted his thesis in 5
    volumes, being hit with that would hurt. Shortly afterwards word came down from on high reminding us
    of the 100,000 word limit. I understand his examiners complained.

    Peter
     
  13. I completely understand. Having just finished my dissertation in physiological science, I know how
    things can spiral out of control - there's so much you want to say, and even in 6 months, I had huge
    amounts to write about. I can't imagine how hard it must be to create a 'sensible' thesis after
    three years of work.

    Best, Dave

    --
    To email, remove SPAM.com and replace with wadham DOT oxford DOT ac DOT uk
     
  14. Bill Roberto

    Bill Roberto Guest

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