George Hincapie's stage win sucked!!!



crit PRO wrote:
> [email protected] a 飲it :g.
>
>
>
> > BoogerD sat on LANCE in Amstel Gold and then crushed him (barely)
> > in the thrilling sprint. This is regarded as unchivalrous by some,
> > but LANCE knew what he was getting into after BoogerD refused
> > to pull. Isn't the really unkosher deed promising not to sprint,
> > and then sprinting?
>
>
>
> If I recall correctly, Boogerd had a team mate, who I think was van
> Bon,
> just behind, and Armstrong had to stay away from him (a faster
> sprinter),
> and Boogerd was forced to sit on. On the other hand, the exact same
> setup happened a year or two later with Armstrong and Dekker
> substituted for
> Boogerd, but Dekker felt obliged to take a couple
> of symbolic pulls and won anyway.
>
> -ilan
>
>
>
>
> No, I think it was M Zberg, the sprinter on the team at that time. Just
> behind them, too.



Dumbass -

You are correct about Markus Zberg in the LANCE/Boogerd Amstel Gold,
but Ilan was speaking of 2 different Amstel Golds - the aforementioned
one along w/ the subsequent LANCE/Dekker one.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > "aotearoa706" <aotearoa706@spam_me-cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > >Once Hincapie knew that the break would
> > >not be caught he should have ridden
> > >like everyone else.
> >
> > Why? The point of bike racing is to beat other riders. He rode the
> > craftiest race. That's the point -- beat the other riders.
>
> The funny thing about this is that everyone (in RBR
> especially) always used to bust on George for riding
> strong but with no smarts.
>
> It's all game theory. Hincapie didn't have an obligation
> to the others to cooperate, nor did he trick them. They
> continued to cooperate well even with him sitting there.
> He didn't force them to do that.
>
> However, he isn't gonna get away with it again, especially
> now they know he won't get dropped on a big mountain. But
> this is the last chance he'll have to sit on a break for
> LANCE, anyway.

Game theory. Its proven when people program their computer to play
other people's programmed computer in a game of trust and
deception that the best strategy is "*** for tat." It wins against
all other strategies, however complex. Trust a player until the
trust is betrayed. Then betray them. In each round do to them what
they did to you in the last round.

"I asked him [Hincapie] to work, as we had to collaborate to
battle it out in a sprint - but he didn't. Sometimes it's not the
strongest that wins. I think I showed I was one the guys that
wanted this stage the most. I thought there was victory in it for
me, but that's life... I'll continue trying and one day I hope to
be rewarded."

"Sometimes it's not the strongest that win." I ask you?
The strongest win because the winner is the strongest.
The cry of whiners --- it sounds like victory.

--
Michael Press
 
aotearoa706 wrote:
> Really???
> This is the common sort of response in here???? WHY???

Dude,

You can flip out playground-styly because Pappy and Kunich
flamed you in their usual manner. Or you can respond to
the people who tried to engage you in a rational conversation.
You have a choice. Just like the riders in today's escape
had to make a choice.

The RBR hothouse is not always nice, but it quickly exposes
people who can't keep a level head.

> "Fred Marx" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > aotearoa706 wrote:
> > > C'mon! I'm just throwing out my opinion. What's with all of the personal
> > > attacks from you guys?
> > welcome ro RBR..... nothing more to say.
 
On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 05:33:36 GMT, Michael Press wrote:
> "Sometimes it's not the strongest that win." I ask you?
> The strongest win because the winner is the strongest.
> The cry of whiners --- it sounds like victory.

If you include tactics in the notion of stronger, or you're only talking
about the last 100 metre, then you're right. But that was not the way
Pereiro used it, or any other cyclist would.

--
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On 17 Jul 2005 22:35:26 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
> Dude,
>
> You can flip out playground-styly because Pappy and Kunich
> flamed you in their usual manner. Or you can respond to
> the people who tried to engage you in a rational conversation.
> You have a choice. Just like the riders in today's escape
> had to make a choice.
>
> The RBR hothouse is not always nice, but it quickly exposes
> people who can't keep a level head.

Besides, he doesn't like sitting in *and* he doesn't like attacks?! What
up with that.

--
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On 17 Jul 2005 19:43:06 -0700, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
ace. That's the point -- beat the other riders.
>
>The funny thing about this is that everyone (in RBR
>especially)

Everyone? Dude, if you use a word like that you're almost surely
going to be wrong.

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
 
That wasn't a personal attack. I'm pointing out that you seem to think
that racing bicycles is some sort of trial of strength instead of a
test of wills. Those who can't grasp the fundamentals of racing
bicycles are pack fodder.
 
aotearoa706 wrote:
> Not at all!
> I'm fine with an American winning.
> What bothers me is that all these guys in here think these tactics are okay
> because it was an American that did it.
>

I don't understand the opposition to employing the strategy most likely
to win (so long as the strategy doesn't violate race rules, of
course)....and I particularly don't understand it as it applies to
Hincapie...George has been letting others draft behind him in the TdF
for TEN YEARS without a single stage win...you'd deny him this rightful
stage because he was tactically and strategically superior to his
closest opponent? Bizarre.

(besides - didn't Vino do esentially the same thing to Botero towards
the end of stage 11? i recall Vino being caught by Botero on the
downhill after the summit, then sucking on Botero's wheel until a few
hundred meters from the finish before Vino sprinted ahead for the stage
win...)

mj
 

> I don't understand the opposition to employing the strategy most likely
> to win (so long as the strategy doesn't violate race rules, of
> course)....and I particularly don't understand it as it applies to
> Hincapie...George has been letting others draft behind him in the TdF
> for TEN YEARS without a single stage win...you'd deny him this rightful
> stage because he was tactically and strategically superior to his
> closest opponent? Bizarre.

you got it. just beacause of that fact, he deserved to win.

> (besides - didn't Vino do esentially the same thing to Botero towards
> the end of stage 11? i recall Vino being caught by Botero on the
> downhill after the summit, then sucking on Botero's wheel until a few
> hundred meters from the finish before Vino sprinted ahead for the stage
> win...)

no, it's different. actually vino waited for botero. and botero agreed to
work together pretty much to the very end. so the best man
won.
 
[email protected] wrote:

> Why is it unsportmansly for a sprinter to sit in but not unsportsmanly
> like for a climber to try to flick the sprinter, should spinters
> complain when climbers don't wait for them over mountain passes? I
> didn't see Pereiro come back to George and say I am going to slowly
> accelerate so you can stay on. No, he kicked and George matched. he had
> a vested interest in gapping the rest of the group because he didn't
> have a sprint.
>
> On the otherhand, George couldn't care less if he sprints away from
> three climbers or one. Why should he dull his sprint or risk taking a
> pull to have Pereiro climb away from him? Honestly, I mean this isn't
> even cryptic cycling tatics it is just common sense. Pereiro, a climber
> tried is darnedest to climb that blaasted sprinter off his tail and
> failed, and as a result got out sprinted.


Hincapie isn't a sprinter anymore.

Wayne
 
k.papai wrote:


>
> You are a NEWBIE to RBR. I am repeating myself.
> Calling George's stage win "sucks" sucks a LOT.
>
> -Ken
>


Being a newbie or a vet is irrelvant.
I think his win sucked too.

Wayne
 
On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:30:57 +0200, Ewoud Dronkert
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> Not if the guy's team member is in yellow. He's hardly obligated to
>> work.
>
>No one's obligated. Still, I think the only reason the others put up with
>it, is that they all underestimated him and/or his goal and ambition.


The other guys "put up with it?" What could they do about it? Any
professional racer understands the position the GH was in and wouldn't
expect anything else.

It was a great and well-deserved victory.
 
On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:57:09 -0500, Last2Know <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Most stage wins "suck" in the sense that they are not won by the guy
>who would place in a one day race.


This is a good point. How many stages are won by sprinters who stay
in the pack waiting for their teams to pull back in the breaks and
then lead them out just to spring to the front in the last 200 meters.

Do they deserve to win?
 
"Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:D[email protected]...

> I think his win sucked too.
>
> Wayne

It was a fine win IMO. It lacked panache, but panache doesn't make the
podium any higher, or the bonus any bigger and it counts for nothing in
one's palmares. If you're Boonen kind of racer people expect and appreciate
panache, if you're a Hincapie kind of racer it's not important.
 
In article <rzxCe.34972$8o.7850@fed1read03>, aotearoa706@spam_me-cox.net
says...
>How can you guy get so excited about a guy who sat on the back of the break
>for 5 hours and then had the cheek to sprint for the win.
>Honestly, if it had happened to ANY of you you would have beat the snot out
>of him after you cossed the line!
>Look at it for what it was. A totally immoral slap in the face to the other
>13 guys who worked their asses off to try to win on the day.

You need to to got 'Bike racing strategy 101'. You never work at the front
when your buddy in yellow is in the chase group. If he could stay with the
climbers during the stage, he definitely deserved the win.
-----------------
Alex
 
In article <n_BCe.35023$8o.8840@fed1read03>, aotearoa706@spam_me-cox.net
says...

>Carl,
>True, they're pros. But so were you and so was I and how often did you sit
>on for 200k and sprint?

How often was your team holding the yellow jersey?
-------------
Alex
 
my big question is why Periero led him out for 3 k... Maybe he thought
he would drop Gorgeous-George, but you would think after 1k he would
sit up a bit and see if he'd come through.. But of course when you
weigh 134lbs, the odds of winning the sprint ain't with you....
 
On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:53:07 -0400, Jack Hollis wrote:
> The other guys "put up with it?" What could they do about it?

Holds the legs still.

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"bikeguy11968" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> my big question is why Periero led him out for 3 k... Maybe he thought
> he would drop Gorgeous-George, but you would think after 1k he would
> sit up a bit and see if he'd come through.. But of course when you
> weigh 134lbs, the odds of winning the sprint ain't with you....
>

He didn't want the others to catch back up. Better to try to beat just one
other rider even if the odds aren't good against Hincapie. It'd be worse
against Hincapie and Boogerd and Cauchioli and Brochard.
 
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