Get scammed here...

Just zis Guy, you know? vaguely muttered something like ...

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 08:23:44 +0100, "Paul - [censored]"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OTOH it lists credit card payment which would give you some protection
against it being a scam

Quoted message said:

Would you believe the credit card payment page it sends you to ?

I think Tony is referring to the Consumer Credit Act.

I figured .. but if a scammer is scamming, then who knows what's ';real' on
the site?

There have been cases where a complete credit card page has been duplicated
and used as part of the scam ..

--
Paul ...

(8(|) Homer Rules !!!

"A [censored] is a [censored], no matter what mode of transport they're using."

Tony Raven vaguely muttered something like ...

Quoted message said:

Paul - censored said:

Would you believe the credit card payment page it sends you to ?

Depends how the URL resolves.

I agree .. but there are _many_ who wouldn't know a bogus URL or page from a
real credit card page ..

Quoted message said:

OTOH if it did turn out to be a scam your
payment is protected by the credit card company. If the credit card co
wants to open a merchant account for a scammer then I'm happy to help
educate them to be more discriminating in their choice of merchants.
Losing money is one of the few educations that works.

Again, I agree. Some credit cards are better than others though .. Mine
credits pending investigation of fraud, many don't .. 😉

--
Paul ...

(8(|) Homer Rules !!!

"A [censored] is a [censored], no matter what mode of transport they're using."

In message <[email hidden]>, Richard Goodman
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

the current high bidder is someone
deliberately bidding the price up again as an anti-scam measure - look at
his ME page

As someone who was nearly scammed by a rogue ebay seller, I looked on
the community boards there to find out more. Taking the transaction
outside ebay seems to be a favourite ploy. As is pulling all multiple
auctions/sales once one or two have succeeded in bringing in some loot
for the scammer.

--
congokid
Good restaurants in London? Number one on Google
http://congokid.com

On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 13:29:15 +0100, "Paul - [censored]"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

There have been cases where a complete credit card page has been duplicated
and used as part of the scam ..

Sure, but you are still protected.

Me, I only deal with trusted parties or small sums. You only have to
be stung once to wipe out a lifetime's eBay deal savings after all. I
know one man who bought a car through eBay. He's very pleased with
it, but I drove mine three times before I bought it, and had it
inspected by my mechanic. Dave could not do that with his eBay motor.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul - [censored]

(') said:

Just zis Guy, you know? vaguely muttered something like ...

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 08:23:44 +0100, "Paul - [censored]"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

> OTOH it lists credit card payment which would give you some
> protection against it being a scam

Quoted message said:

Would you believe the credit card payment page it sends you to ?

I think Tony is referring to the Consumer Credit Act.

I figured .. but if a scammer is scamming, then who knows what's
';real' on the site?

There have been cases where a complete credit card page has been
duplicated and used as part of the scam ..

Don't use your credit card if the payment page is part of a frameset.
Don't use your credit card if the payment page doesn't have a
certificate ('https' instead of 'http', and the browser usually shows a
padlock icon). Don't use a credit card if you get a dialogue box
telling you the certificate doesn't match the website. Once you've made
all those checks, using a credit card online is exactly the same as
using one on the phone - you are, in effect, trusting the people at the
far end not to abuse your card details and only to charge to it the
amount you've authorised them to. If you don't trust the people at the
far end, don't do it.

Paypal, for all its faults, is moderately safe but for best security use
a credit card to pay by Paypal. Having said that the overwhelming
majority of people are honest. We have spent several thousands of
pounds buying goods online over the years and probably a couple of
thousand by now on eBay. We've never been scammed.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Age equals angst multiplied by the speed of fright squared.
;; the Worlock

Koyunbaba said:

Now the sellers got a good rating, but he's not responding to my emails.
I'm starting to get a bit edgy about this deal now.

What do people think, does this deal look a bit fishy or am I being
Paranoid.

Auction doesn't look at all dodgy. Seller has good feedback rating,
plus current activity and recent feedback on expensive items from
other high feedback ebayers, some for cycling related stuff. I'd feel
entirely comfortable with those circumstances.

As has been suggested, would be a good idea for you to pay by Paypal
anyway, just to be on the safe side. Personally I think Paypal are
Nazis, but from a buyers point of view using them to pay via credit
card does give you added protection, and it's also is free.

Sellers on the other hand take a very significant risk in accepting
payment via Paypal (not to mention having to suffer the expensive
fees).
--

"Bob"

'The people have spoken, the [censored]'

Email address is spam trapped.
To reply directly remove the beverage.

On 9/10/04 3:16 pm, in article [email hidden],

Call me Bob said:

Sellers on the other hand take a very significant risk in accepting
payment via Paypal (not to mention having to suffer the expensive
fees).

What expensive fees? For a standard paypal account there is a hefty fee if
you want to take out less than 50 pounds. Other than that it is entirely
free.

...d

"Koyunbaba" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Michael Green" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=72573&item=7106064122&rd=1

Hi, I just won an auction Wednesday on ebay for this item.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7104923406

and I think i've got a pretty good deal on the spec of the bike Tiagra
groupset, Ali frame Sram hubs for £175.

Now the sellers got a good rating, but he's not responding to my emails.
I'm starting to get a bit edgy about this deal now.

What do people think, does this deal look a bit fishy or am I being
Paranoid.

Yours Koy

Looks legit. to me, check the feedback. I wouldn't panic yet, the
citizens of Winbourne are a bit slow you know. (For example Bob Fripp)

Michael Green said:

Looks legit. to me, check the feedback. I wouldn't panic yet, the
citizens of Winbourne are a bit slow you know. (For example Bob Fripp)

There's a name that brings back memories

Tony

On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 18:10:42 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

Quoted message said:

citizens of Winbourne are a bit slow you know. (For example Bob Fripp)

There's a name that brings back memories

Fair eno.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

David Martin said:

Quoted message said:

Sellers on the other hand take a very significant risk in accepting
payment via Paypal (not to mention having to suffer the expensive
fees).

What expensive fees? For a standard paypal account there is a hefty fee if
you want to take out less than 50 pounds. Other than that it is entirely
free.

Free? No it's not.

If the OP pays for the bike using his credit card as we've been
discussing then it will cost the seller more than £6 to receive the
payment. Paypal will take 20p plus 3.4% of the total (including any
shipping costs that have to be added on to the sale price).

Now of course if Paypal are providing a service they deserve some
payment in return. However they deliberately and sneakily operate in a
way that makes it very difficult to use a free account using, for
example, Ebay. They use the "it's FREE!!" come on to get people to
sign up and then ambush them with fees at the last possible moment,
and pretty much out of the blue. It's just dishonest.

The trick is you use Paypal on the basis that your personal account is
free, but they offer to accept payment on your ebay auctions via
methods which as a personal account holder you are not entitled to
accept.

You believe that it will be free (coz that's what they kept telling
you) but it's not. Paypal will put Visa, Mastercard, Switch etc logos
on your auction payment section, and most buyers will use this method.
You will then get an email from Paypal saying "Your buyer has paid!
But you can't have the money." They'll explain that as you only have a
free personal account you are not entitled to accept card payments
(but it was Paypal who put the card logos on your personal account
holding auction in the first place). So you either then have to reject
the payment and send it back to the buyer, or, if you want your money,
upgrade your account, pay the fees and say goodbye to your free
personal account forever.

Ebay and Paypal work very well together to steer people into exactly
this situation, but then Ebay and Paypal are actually the same outfit.

The web is stuffed full of horror stories about the arbitrary way
Paypal treats "customers". They ain't a bank and you get bugger all
protection when you use them. Accepting payments via Paypal is
expensive and exposes you to fraud in a big way.

You pay's yer money, you take's yer choice....
--

"Bob"

'The people have spoken, the [censored]'

Email address is spam trapped.
To reply directly remove the beverage.

Call me Bob said:

Free? No it's not.

If the OP pays for the bike using his credit card as we've been
discussing then it will cost the seller more than £6 to receive the
payment. Paypal will take 20p plus 3.4% of the total (including any
shipping costs that have to be added on to the sale price).

That's not surprising. Credit cards charges for handling the
transaction (which is how the card company makes its money and covers
fraud and other costs without charging you a penny for owning it). It
is standard for the seller to pay the card company. In the Paypal case
it would not be reasonable for Paypal to pay it as they are simply
acting as an intermediary between the seller and buyer and therefore the
seller will have to pay it.

Tony

On 10/10/04 5:04 am, in article [email hidden],

Call me Bob said:

David Martin said:

Quoted message said:

Sellers on the other hand take a very significant risk in accepting
payment via Paypal (not to mention having to suffer the expensive
fees).

What expensive fees? For a standard paypal account there is a hefty fee if
you want to take out less than 50 pounds. Other than that it is entirely
free.

Free? No it's not.

If the OP pays for the bike using his credit card as we've been
discussing then it will cost the seller more than £6 to receive the
payment. Paypal will take 20p plus 3.4% of the total (including any
shipping costs that have to be added on to the sale price).

Now of course if Paypal are providing a service they deserve some
payment in return. However they deliberately and sneakily operate in a
way that makes it very difficult to use a free account using, for
example, Ebay. They use the "it's FREE!!" come on to get people to
sign up and then ambush them with fees at the last possible moment,
and pretty much out of the blue. It's just dishonest.

The trick is you use Paypal on the basis that your personal account is
free, but they offer to accept payment on your ebay auctions via
methods which as a personal account holder you are not entitled to
accept.

You believe that it will be free (coz that's what they kept telling
you) but it's not. Paypal will put Visa, Mastercard, Switch etc logos
on your auction payment section, and most buyers will use this method.
You will then get an email from Paypal saying "Your buyer has paid!
But you can't have the money." They'll explain that as you only have a
free personal account you are not entitled to accept card payments
(but it was Paypal who put the card logos on your personal account
holding auction in the first place). So you either then have to reject
the payment and send it back to the buyer, or, if you want your money,
upgrade your account, pay the fees and say goodbye to your free
personal account forever.

Thanks for the heads up..

It is fine as long as the payer has sufficient funds in their PayPal
account. Good for micropayments. For larger payments I'd go for a direct
bank transfer.

Quoted message said:

Ebay and Paypal work very well together to steer people into exactly
this situation, but then Ebay and Paypal are actually the same outfit.

The web is stuffed full of horror stories about the arbitrary way
Paypal treats "customers". They ain't a bank and you get bugger all
protection when you use them. Accepting payments via Paypal is
expensive and exposes you to fraud in a big way.

I wouldn't accept large payments, just small ones, and keep the free account
(well, minus the interest on up to 50 quid)

...d

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 08:15:40 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If the OP pays for the bike using his credit card as we've been
discussing then it will cost the seller more than £6 to receive the
payment. Paypal will take 20p plus 3.4% of the total (including any
shipping costs that have to be added on to the sale price).

That's not surprising. Credit cards charges for handling the
transaction (which is how the card company makes its money and covers
fraud and other costs without charging you a penny for owning it). It
is standard for the seller to pay the card company. In the Paypal case
it would not be reasonable for Paypal to pay it as they are simply
acting as an intermediary between the seller and buyer and therefore the
seller will have to pay it.

I agree that it's not surprising, I acknowledged in my post that
providing a service warrants a payment. It's not really the fees that
I object to, it's the underhand way in which Paypal back people into a
corner and almost force them into a fee paying account. That and the
utterly cavalier attitude they seem to show towards customers and the
lack of protection they offer whilst accepting this fee.

It's becoming an increasingly widespread method of fraud, buying high
value goods from sellers who accept Paypal, then simply charging the
money back and leaving them high and dry. Paypal don't give a flying
[censored] about the seller whos fee's they have taken. It just strikes me
as very, very shabby.
--

"Bob"

'The people have spoken, the [censored]'

Email address is spam trapped.
To reply directly remove the beverage.

"Call me Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's becoming an increasingly widespread method of fraud, buying high
value goods from sellers who accept Paypal, then simply charging the
money back and leaving them high and dry. Paypal don't give a flying
[censored] about the seller whos fee's they have taken. It just strikes me
as very, very shabby.

That puzzles me, because I thought there was at least some protection for
sellers in credit card payments - that credit card payments cannot just be
'stopped'. At least, I was told that by a card co when I had a dispute with
a merchant. They usually want you to try and sort out your dispute with the
seller directly first. If that fails you may be able to claim against both
the card co and the seller, which may get you your money back from the card
co - I suppose they could then try and recover it from the seller by
withdrawing the credit to their account or whatever - but surely it's not
that easy just to cancel a card payment?

Rich

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 08:15:40 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

Quoted message said:

If the OP pays for the bike using his credit card as we've been
discussing then it will cost the seller more than £6 to receive the
payment. Paypal will take 20p plus 3.4% of the total (including any
shipping costs that have to be added on to the sale price).

Quoted message said:

That's not surprising. Credit cards charges for handling the
transaction (which is how the card company makes its money and covers
fraud and other costs without charging you a penny for owning it).

I know people with credit card merchant accounts who are charged 4% on
all credit card transactions, so PayPal is not even scalping on that
score.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Richard Goodman said:

That puzzles me, because I thought there was at least some protection for
sellers in credit card payments - that credit card payments cannot just be
'stopped'. At least, I was told that by a card co when I had a dispute with
a merchant. They usually want you to try and sort out your dispute with the
seller directly first. If that fails you may be able to claim against both
the card co and the seller, which may get you your money back from the card
co - I suppose they could then try and recover it from the seller by
withdrawing the credit to their account or whatever - but surely it's not
that easy just to cancel a card payment?

What you say is true, but it doesn't necessarily apply to Paypal
transactions. Paypal are not a credit card company, nor are they a bank,
they're not subject to the same kind of regulation or codes of conduct
as the other financial institutes you are used to dealing with.

By the time the funds are passing between the Paypal accounts of the
buyer and seller the actual credit card transaction is already done and
dusted. The credit card company effectively have no control over things
once the money is credited from the card account to the buyers Paypal
account. So, if a buyer wants to fleece you, they don't need to stop or
reverse a credit card transaction, they only need to reverse a /Paypal/
transaction, which is an altogether easier thing to do. Paypal have
several processes which allow for this (you can read about them yourself
in Paypal T & C), so it's not difficult for an unscrupulous buyer to
simply take the money back from a sellers account once they have the
goods in hand.

It appears that would be rip-off artists are now beginning to
deliberately process purchases so that sellers are unknowingly put on
the wrong side of one or two small Paypal conditions. This is very easy
to do and it provides for a fast and easy refund once goods have been
received, and also gives the seller no effective remedy. If you find
yourself in this position Paypal will not assist you, the message is
"it's your lookout mate, not our problem".

"Call me "Bob"" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So, if a buyer wants to fleece you, they don't need to stop or reverse a
credit card transaction, they only need to reverse a /Paypal/ transaction,
which is an altogether easier thing to do. Paypal have several processes
which allow for this (you can read about them yourself in Paypal T & C),
so it's not difficult for an unscrupulous buyer to simply take the money
back from a sellers account once they have the goods in hand.

I see. Thanks for that. So Paypal not only levy charges in a deceitful
way, but they don't even offer sellers any security that a payment made will
stay made? ! That seems really disgraceful. Better to use different
methods of payment then, methinks.

Rich

"Richard Goodman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Call me "Bob"" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So, if a buyer wants to fleece you, they don't need to stop or reverse a
credit card transaction, they only need to reverse a /Paypal/
transaction, which is an altogether easier thing to do. Paypal have
several processes which allow for this (you can read about them yourself
in Paypal T & C), so it's not difficult for an unscrupulous buyer to
simply take the money back from a sellers account once they have the
goods in hand.

I see. Thanks for that. So Paypal not only levy charges in a deceitful
way, but they don't even offer sellers any security that a payment made
will stay made? ! That seems really disgraceful. Better to use different
methods of payment then, methinks.

Rich

Hmm, I have to say that having read the Paypal T&C fairly carefully before
we decided to accept Paypal payments through my wife's website we were under
no illusions whatsoever regarding the charges. The issue of claw back of
payments is, so far as I am aware, no different if you opt to set up a
merchant account and accept credit card payments where the purchaser is not
present. If the card is stolen then the seller is the one who loses, not the
card holder as the credit card company claw back the payment. Not a lot of
people know that...........

Even better, if you accept a cheque or foreign draft from a purchaser and it
clears through the bank's clearing system, there is still no guarantee that
the money is there for you. The banks have up to six months to claw back the
money if there is something wrong with the transaction. How do I know? It
happened to us. We had a foreign draft for almost 3000 quid for the purchase
by a US customer of a bunch of fountain pens. We presented it to the bank
and waited three days to make sure it cleared, which it did. As the customer
was on holiday we didn't send out the parcel straight away and on checking
the account a few days later found that the payment had been clawed back due
to a minor - and I mean minor - error on the payee details. That's when the
bank advised us of the six month claw back period. Fortunately, our customer
was a paragon of honesty and sorted it out at their end. So you think Paypal
may be a problem? Believe me, if the payment isn't in coin of the realm,
checked to make sure it's not forged, you take a risk, no matter what other
form it takes.

As an aside on the whole Ebay/Paypal issue, I have made over 600 purchases
on Ebay ranging from small items such as a couple of quid for batteries to
over 2500 pounds for an exquisite dinner service and I've been had five
times, all of them by UK sellers. In my experience, the Germans and the
Americans are the best to deal with as they give detailed and accurate
descriptions and are very quick and generous when things go not as expected.
A disturbingly high percentage of Brits who use the 'Bay are complete
shysters who will misdescribe stuff, use nicely ambiguous descriptions, or
simply not send goods duly paid for. Not just based on my experience, but
also on that of friends and colleagues. Ebay will take up some of these
problems (you have to be persistent) and I've had 3 sellers accounts closed
on complaint. I now almost completely avoid any UK sellers for this reason,
unless I can pick up the goods before paying. OTOH, the Germans will even
send stuff to you before you've paid for it (has happened to me at least 8
times that I can recall).

Gordon

--
Subtract 1 from 11 to reply

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:32:56 +0100, "Gordon" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If the card is stolen then the seller is the one who loses, not the
card holder as the credit card company claw back the payment. Not a lot of
people know that...

Really? Under the terms of the Consumer Credit Act it is the credit
card company who are liable. Clearly they are choosing to pass on
that liability.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University