getting a tubular off the rim quickly

The real trick is getting the glue off your hands.
Seriously, most people use far too much glue. If you ride your bike enough, you learn just how much to put on in the first place. I very seldom put on new glue each time unless I happen to get alot of grass mixed in and have to clean my rim. As for the hands, I keep a small bottle of alcohol rub in my bag. It also helps with washing off road dirt before I grab an apple of a tree along the way.

If you race on tubbies, there is no such thing as "too much glue." If
you've ever clipped a pedal in a turn and launched yourself over a few
feet, you'd know that the impact of landing will roll most tubbies that
are glued in the normal way.
Sometimes it will take me 15 minutes to get a flat tubbie off of a race
wheel.
If you use them for training, or for just riding around, you have to
ask yourself..................Why bother ??

I don't see the original message in the thread, I think google
groups-beta is going through some growing pains...

but here's what I have to offer...

getting a tubie off in a hurry...some folks, mostly triathletes
deliberately leave a 1/2 to 1 inch spot on the rim and/or tire
unglued...usually directly opposite the valve hole so you can find that
spot easily....some people may say this is risky...but it's done fairly
regularly without incident.

if you're doing fast descents down the french alps..maybe not such a
good idea.

in an emergency...say if you valve is plugged or your valve extender
snaps off and you can't deflate your sew-up to pull it off....work a
spot loose, and the take a large screwdriver and insert it clear
through to the other side...and then roll the screwdriver with your
hands on each side of the screwdriver...all the way around the rim to
pry the glue loose. I saw a Mavic tech do this at Ironman last
year...only way to get the tire off in that case.

There used to be an excellent tutorial for gluing tire on the zipp
website..but I think it's gone now....so here's what i know...hopefully
there are answers to the original question.

always try and pre-stretch a new tire on a rim before gluing it...it
will save you some trouble. inflate a new tubie over an unused
rim...even a clincher rim will do in a pinch. let it sit overnight...or
at least a few hours...(if you don't have time to pre-strectch...you
can GENTLY pull up on a sewup while standing on it...use both feet to
distribute the force...and rotate to the tire as you stretch. Don't
overdue it. you can tear teh base tape or distort the casing if you
apply to much force....go slow and distribute the force evenly.

a good way to keep glue from getting all over your hands is to snip a
corner off a plastic bag and use it like a glove for your index
finger...use the plastic wrapped finger to smooth the glue over the rim
and the tire. (inflate the tire partially...so it turns itself inside
out) it makes the job easier.

apply thin, even coats...at least two to both the rim and the tire for
a new rim and new tire..(otherwise a thin fresh coat over existing glue
on a rim will do...but two coats on a new tire is the bare minimum if
you dont' want to roll a tire. If you use small tubes of cement
instead of the big jars...just put evenly space dots of glue along the
rim and the tire...squeeze as you go...and then smooth it all out with
your plastic wrapped finger. (simply pull the plastic off like a glove
when you're done and discard).

allow at least 15 min. to half hour between coats to let the glue dry
and set up. it actually sticks better when it's dry.

apply teflon tape to your valve if you're going to use a valve
extender....screw on your valve extender. deflate the tire if it's
still partially inflated.. valve extender should be left on...don't
pull them off and on or try to use one for both wheels...you'll ruin
the teflon tape seal...and you wont' be able to bring the tires up to
full pressure when you need to, air will escape between the valve
extender and the valve.

when dry...place the wheel vertically...with the valve hole pointing
up....and the rim resting on the tops of your feet...this way the glue
doesn't pick up carpet fuzz or whatever on the floor.

deflate the tire if you haven't done so already..

insert the valve of the tire first...and the pull and stretch the tire
around the rim as you move your hands around and down the rim..work
your way towards your feet...this way you'll produce enough slack that
pushing the last bit of tire of the rim at the bottom shouldnt' be a
herculean effort. (this works well for clinchers also if you have
trouble getting that last bead over the rim)

Also, with the rim vertically at your feet...you can use your body
weight to help stretch and push the tire onto the rim. If you try to
do it on a bench or on your lap...it's not very stable and you dont'
have any sort of mechanical advantage...

if the glue is still wet...you may smear a bunch on the braking
surface...that's why it's important to let the glue dry.

once your have the last bit of tire onto the rim...if you have a truing
stand handy...partially inflate the tire...and spin...watch the center
tread of the tire and try and center the tire. pull the tire up and
away from the rim to reposition it. watch the sidewalls of the tire
and try and make the amount of exposed base tape even all the way
around and on both sides.

if it's just a little off center in a couple places....once you bring
the tire all the way up to full pressure, it will tend to center
itself. Inflate the tire to full pressure and let is set
overnight...ideally...before riding.

We love Tufo sewups because they have a nice center tread that's easy
to spot if it's off center. they also mount very easily and stretch
easily...it's not uncommon to mount with without pre-stretching without
too much trouble.

if you want to avoid the hassle of glue altogether but want the quality
of tubulars...Tufo make a glue tape that is easy to use. two
flavors...regular and extra strong for hot/humid climates....just peel
away the backing and apply to the rim...then mount your tire...and pull
away the second backing off the tape...voila. no fuss, no muss. Only
hassle is it'll block your spoke holes..which can be a hassle if you
can only true your rim through your spoke holes....with glue, you
should just be avoiding applying glue to the spoke holes and plugging
them up.

that's what I know after gluing many, many sewups in a triathlon shop.

if you do the plastic baggie thing over your finger...there's no reason
to have any glue on you whatsoever.

hope it helps...oh yeah...cleanup...citrus cleaners work well...for
your hands and the rim...always check your brake surfaces and clean off
any glue, or you make lock up your brakes on the glue.

sewups are still light as heck and fast...and corner like a
dream...plenty of reasons to use them in the right circumstances.

Eric
bikemecca.com

peet9471 said:

The real trick is getting the glue off your hands.
Seriously, most people use far too much glue. If you ride your bike
enough, you learn just how much to put on in the first place. I very
seldom put on new glue each time unless I happen to get alot of grass
mixed in and have to clean my rim. As for the hands, I keep a small
bottle of alcohol rub in my bag. It also helps with washing off road
dirt before I grab an apple of a tree along the way.

--
peet9471

The original question had nothing to do with racing. I use pre-glued tires with no additional glue at the time of the flat, which means I don't have to wait for the glue to dry. Wet glue would probably let the tire roll off the rim. I've never rolled a tire.

I keep an old steel tire lever rolled up in my spare tire, with the
business end sharpened a bit ( not knife sharp, just thinned down ). I
can use the lever to work my way under the tire and cut some of the
glue along an edge until I've got something to grab and pull. Remember,
pull off rear tires on non-drive side; punching a cassette sucks.
--Jim

Quoted message said:

If you race on tubbies, there is no such thing as "too much glue."

Sure there is. Too much glue is one of the primary causes of rolled
tires. You only need enough to "fill the gap", and like solder,
any more makes for a weaker bond.

Quoted message said:

If you've ever clipped a pedal in a turn and launched yourself over a few
feet, you'd know that the impact of landing will roll most tubbies that
are glued in the normal way.

Normal in your sense perhaps, but if you used the correct amount
of glue, the correct for the conditions, and let it dry the correct
amount of time before mounting to the rim you'd be very unlikely
to roll a tire even if you hit a pedal and the rear wheel came down
several feet out.

Quoted message said:

If you use them for training, or for just riding around, you have to
ask yourself..................Why bother ??

Why bother? Perhaps because it's easier than hassling with clinchers
(if you know how to glue a tire). #1 because your riding partners
will only have to wait 2 minutes instead of 10 when you get a flat,
#2 because you can run larger, lighter tires at lower pressure on
_much_ lighter rims, and #3 because you'll have better traction on
less than perfect pavement.

Problem is, these days, most people either can't find decent sew-ups
or don't know how to glue them. See <http://www.roble.net/marquis/tubular>
for the later.

--
Roger Marquis
http://www.roble.net/marquis/

Roger Marquis said:

Quoted message said:

If you race on tubulars, there is no such thing as "too much glue."

Quoted message said:

Sure there is. Too much glue is one of the primary causes of rolled
tires. You only need enough to "fill the gap", and like solder, any
more makes for a weaker bond.

The important feature is that the glue must be soft enough to make
good contact with the tire. Dry glue on a dry base tape doesn't stick
well. Too much glue has other problems besides not holding the tire
securely. It gets on the side walls and oozes out in use, especially
when the rim gets hot on braking down hills.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you've ever clipped a pedal in a turn and launched yourself over
a few feet, you'd know that the impact of landing will roll most
tubulars that are glued in the normal way.

Quoted message said:

Normal in your sense perhaps, but if you used the correct amount of
glue, the correct for the conditions, and let it dry the correct
amount of time before mounting to the rim you'd be very unlikely to
roll a tire even if you hit a pedal and the rear wheel came down
several feet out.

The difference is that the tire can be displaced without being peeled
off as with insufficient pressure to maintain a round cross section.
Clinchers will only roll if the are too soft but a tubular can be
rolled off the rim even when hard. Rolling clinchers is not a common
problem although rolling tubulars off the rim was in the days when all
riders were on them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you use them for training, or for just riding around, you have
to ask yourself... Why bother ??

Quoted message said:

Why bother? Perhaps because it's easier than hassling with
clinchers (if you know how to glue a tire). #1 because your riding
partners will only have to wait 2 minutes instead of 10 when you get
a flat, #2 because you can run larger, lighter tires at lower
pressure on _much_ lighter rims, and #3 because you'll have better
traction on less than perfect pavement.

To make up for that, you either throw away an expensive tire or spend
a substantial time repairing the tubular. From the many tubular
repairs I witnessed and did myself, this is not a reasonable
alternative. Besides, tubulars not glued with shellac have poorer
rolling performance than good clinchers.

http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/rolres.gif

As is evident in the graph, the best rolling tires have a rim glue
offset that makes them worse than good clinchers. This family of
curves could be mathematically ordered by slope if there were not a
constant offset for the tubulars by squirming glue losses. That these
exist is evident by the aluminum debris in the glue after use and the
base tape texture marks in the aluminum rim.

Quoted message said:

Problem is, these days, most people either can't find decent sew-ups
or don't know how to glue them. See

http://www.roble.net/marquis/tubular

Quoted message said:

for the later.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Too much glue is one of the primary causes of rolled
tires. You only need enough to "fill the gap", and like solder, any
more makes for a weaker bond.

The important feature is that the glue must be soft enough to make
good contact with the tire.

That would depend on your definition of soft. I typically leave
Vittoria glue on a rim for 30-45 minutes before mounting a tire.
During this time it gets "dry" enough to touch but unless the layer
was excessively thick I'm not sure how you'd go about determining
whether it was "soft".

Quoted message said:

Dry glue on a dry base tape doesn't stick well.

That would depend on your definition of dry. :-)

The objective is to let the glue dry as much as possible while still
retaining its ability to adhere to both tire and rim. Like masonry,
soldering, and pouring cement, it does take experience to know when
a particular glue has "cured" enough to mount the tire. I still
get it wrong from time to time but have never had a problem with
rolled tires. I do check them on hot days, before races, and clean
off the old glue before regluing however.

That said it's important to remember that tires really do not need
to be "welded" to the rim. If you can't get one off by hand it is
"over-adhered".

Quoted message said:

Rolling clinchers is not a common problem although rolling tubulars
off the rim was in the days when all riders were on them.

A properly glued sew-up is as unlikely to roll as a properly mounted
clincher. The difference is perhaps due to the smaller number of
ways to improperly mount a clincher. Rolled tires, in the rare
cases when they do occur, are far more often caused by loose tires,
mixed glues, and latex on the base tape than by improper gluing.
I've rolled only 2 tires in 33 years, one from latex on the base
tape of a Clement Criterium and one from a bad base tape on an
unknown Contential.

Quoted message said:

To make up for that, you either throw away an expensive tire or spend
a substantial time repairing the tubular.

That would depend on your definition of expensive. At $25 for a
cheap cotton tubular it's hard to see much of a disadvantage despite
the fact that clinchers typically last twice as long (as cheap
tubulars). WRT patching, it is a waste of time if you make more than
150% of minimum wage. See tirealert.com otherwise.

Quoted message said:

Besides, tubulars not glued with shellac have poorer rolling
performance than good clinchers.

I'd sure like to see a credible measurement of that oft-repeated
(by Jobst at least) speculation.

Quoted message said:

http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/rolres.gif

As is evident in the graph, the best rolling tires have a rim glue
offset that makes them worse than good clinchers.

For all the work put into this graph it is totally meaningless when
applied to sew-ups without a description of the glue used and how
it was applied.

--
Roger Marquis
http://www.roble.net/marquis/

Roger Marquis said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Too much glue is one of the primary causes of rolled
tires. You only need enough to "fill the gap", and like solder, any
more makes for a weaker bond.

The important feature is that the glue must be soft enough to make
good contact with the tire.

That would depend on your definition of soft. I typically leave
Vittoria glue on a rim for 30-45 minutes before mounting a tire.
During this time it gets "dry" enough to touch but unless the layer
was excessively thick I'm not sure how you'd go about determining
whether it was "soft".

Quoted message said:

Dry glue on a dry base tape doesn't stick well.

That would depend on your definition of dry. :-)

The objective is to let the glue dry as much as possible while still
retaining its ability to adhere to both tire and rim. Like masonry,
soldering, and pouring cement, it does take experience to know when
a particular glue has "cured" enough to mount the tire. I still
get it wrong from time to time but have never had a problem with
rolled tires. I do check them on hot days, before races, and clean
off the old glue before regluing however.

That said it's important to remember that tires really do not need
to be "welded" to the rim. If you can't get one off by hand it is
"over-adhered".

Quoted message said:

Rolling clinchers is not a common problem although rolling tubulars
off the rim was in the days when all riders were on them.

A properly glued sew-up is as unlikely to roll as a properly mounted
clincher. The difference is perhaps due to the smaller number of
ways to improperly mount a clincher. Rolled tires, in the rare
cases when they do occur, are far more often caused by loose tires,
mixed glues, and latex on the base tape than by improper gluing.
I've rolled only 2 tires in 33 years, one from latex on the base
tape of a Clement Criterium and one from a bad base tape on an
unknown Contential.

Quoted message said:

To make up for that, you either throw away an expensive tire or spend
a substantial time repairing the tubular.

That would depend on your definition of expensive. At $25 for a
cheap cotton tubular it's hard to see much of a disadvantage despite
the fact that clinchers typically last twice as long (as cheap
tubulars). WRT patching, it is a waste of time if you make more than
150% of minimum wage. See tirealert.com otherwise.

Quoted message said:

Besides, tubulars not glued with shellac have poorer rolling
performance than good clinchers.

I'd sure like to see a credible measurement of that oft-repeated
(by Jobst at least) speculation.

Quoted message said:

http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/rolres.gif

As is evident in the graph, the best rolling tires have a rim glue
offset that makes them worse than good clinchers.

For all the work put into this graph it is totally meaningless when
applied to sew-ups without a description of the glue used and how
it was applied.

Dear Roger,

Jobst's description can be found here, but it just says
tubular glue and normal methods:

http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/rrdiscuss.html

Jobst mentions that the tests are from 1986 and that some of
the tests were lost.

Here's a link to one rolling resistance test-table:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/lafford.htm

Calvin Jones posted this link to tests involving seven kinds
of glue:

http://www.engr.ukans.edu/~ktl/bicycle/Cusa1.pdf

in this rec.bicycles.tech thread:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/54365247ddd091e3?dmode=source
or http://tinyurl.com/56mgg

And his Park Tool site has a nice page on tubular repair
with pictures:

http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/tubular.shtml

Carl Fogel

Roger Marquis said:

Quoted message said:

Besides, tubulars not glued with shellac have poorer rolling
performance than good clinchers.

Quoted message said:

I'd sure like to see a credible measurement of that oft-repeated (by
Jobst at least) speculation.

http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/rolres.gif

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As is evident in the graph, the best rolling tires have a rim glue
offset that makes them worse than good clinchers.

Quoted message said:

For all the work put into this graph it is totally meaningless when
applied to sew-ups without a description of the glue used and how it
was applied.

From this statement, I take it that you DO believe that glue has an
effect on RR. On the other hand, you didn't look at the graph
carefully or you would have noticed that tires that start at high RR
with low pressure rapidly get better RR with higher inflation pressure
and that they don't as a rule get as good as the next best tire (one
that starts lower on RR).

Therefore, these are a family of curves that could be generated from a
single one whose values are all multiplied by an RR factor. The
flattest curves being at the bottom. That is, the flattest curves
belong to the tires that have the least RR and which do not get much
better with inflation pressure, there being so little upon which to
improve.

You may have noticed that old tubular rims have abraded base tape
marks IN the aluminum, and that rim glue on a tubular is grey. This
is aluminum that is worn off by constant squirming motion when in use.
It is this action that lead to using hard glue for track and TT events
to reduce RR overhead.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Roger Marquis said:

Quoted message said:

Rolling clinchers is not a common problem although rolling tubulars
off the rim was in the days when all riders were on them.

A properly glued sew-up is as unlikely to roll as a properly mounted
clincher.

From my limited and long-past experience with tubulars, I would agree
with Roger here.

I think, however, that perhaps Jobst may have been pointing out that an
*im*properly glued sew-up is much more likely to roll than a
*im*properly glued clincher. Think about it.

Mark "Don't need no steenking Tubasti" Janeba

Roger Marquis said:

Quoted message said:

Besides, tubulars not glued with shellac have poorer rolling
performance than good clinchers.

Quoted message said:

I'd sure like to see a credible measurement of that oft-repeated (by
Jobst at least) speculation.

Rather than going into the details here I think this web item explains
in in better terms:

http://tinyurl.com/6fkj5

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Jobst's description can be found here, but it just says
tubular glue and normal methods:
http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/rrdiscuss.html

Not sure what this is in reference to Carl. There's nothing in the
data you cite that supports Jobst's theory on the relationship of
tubular glue to rolling resistance.

On the contrary, tests run on Jobst steel drum machine, which not
surprisingly favor his employer's (Avocet) treadless tires, do not
translate to any common real world conditions.

Perhaps more importantly, none of this tests the most important
relationship, that of rolling resistance to traction.

Quoted message said:

Calvin Jones posted this link to tests involving seven kinds of glue:

The papers by Jones and Park (his employer) are excellent but
incomplete. They both advocate a layer of glue on the base tape
for example, which if applied properly will only insure that the
base tape pulls off the tire before the tire comes off of the rim.

Also, neither paper mentions the problem with large or over-stretched
tires. In my experience, if the tire doesn't sit tightly on the
rim no amount of glue will hold it sufficiently.

OTOH, if the tire does sit tightly on the rim it doesn't matter if
it has very little glue. The one exception to this rule is in A)
very hot conditions B) long and steep descents, and/or C) heavy
riders. For those I'd recommend a very heat resistant glue or
clinchers.

--
Roger Marquis
http://www.roble.net/marquis/

Roger Marquis said:

Quoted message said:

Jobst's description can be found here, but it just says
tubular glue and normal methods:
http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/rrdiscuss.html

Not sure what this is in reference to Carl. There's nothing in the
data you cite that supports Jobst's theory on the relationship of
tubular glue to rolling resistance.

On the contrary, tests run on Jobst steel drum machine, which not
surprisingly favor his employer's (Avocet) treadless tires, do not
translate to any common real world conditions.

Perhaps more importantly, none of this tests the most important
relationship, that of rolling resistance to traction.

Quoted message said:

Calvin Jones posted this link to tests involving seven kinds of glue:

The papers by Jones and Park (his employer) are excellent but
incomplete. They both advocate a layer of glue on the base tape
for example, which if applied properly will only insure that the
base tape pulls off the tire before the tire comes off of the rim.

Also, neither paper mentions the problem with large or over-stretched
tires. In my experience, if the tire doesn't sit tightly on the
rim no amount of glue will hold it sufficiently.

OTOH, if the tire does sit tightly on the rim it doesn't matter if
it has very little glue. The one exception to this rule is in A)
very hot conditions B) long and steep descents, and/or C) heavy
riders. For those I'd recommend a very heat resistant glue or
clinchers.

Dear Roger,

I'm not citing anything as an argument, just pointing to
Jobst's text, which some people might have missed, since it
wasn't attached to the direct link to the graph

The other links are to studies concerning glue that might
interest people. If you know of better ones, I hope that
you'll post them.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Roger Marquis <[email hidden]> writes:

http://tinyurl.com/6fkj5

Quoted message said:

There's nothing in the data you cite that supports Jobst's theory on
the relationship of tubular glue to rolling resistance.

Quoted message said:

On the contrary, tests run on Jobst steel drum machine, which not
surprisingly favor his employer's (Avocet) treadless tires, do not
translate to any common real world conditions.

You say "steel drum machine" as though that were some unacceptable
method of measuring rolling resistance. Steel drums are used to get
rid of any roughness effects of different surfaces of different
testing machines n the tire industry. That is true for truck, car,
motorcycle, and bicycle tires. Because road scrubbing is not the
source of rolling resistance, the surface has no useful influence on
assessing the deformation losses in tires. Such tests are always done
on smooth surface drums and the diameter is also fixed although I don't
know what that dimension is. In any case that has no bearing on the
outcome because all tires were tested under the same conditions.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps more importantly, none of this tests the most important
relationship, that of rolling resistance to traction.

This is not a traction test. Those were performed on the Avocet paved
six foot diameter drum machine. I'm sure you would not believe
anything that was measured there if you don't believe the data
presented by IRC.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Calvin Jones posted this link to tests involving seven kinds of
glue:

Quoted message said:

The papers by Jones and Park (his employer) are excellent but
incomplete. They both advocate a layer of glue on the base tape for
example, which if applied properly will only insure that the base
tape pulls off the tire before the tire comes off of the rim.

Stop dodging. The test showed that rim glue has an effect on rolling
resistance and that was the purpose of the test. Besides, what makes
the "base tape pull off first" as you state? Under what circumstances
does this occur?

Quoted message said:

Also, neither paper mentions the problem with large or
over-stretched tires. In my experience, if the tire doesn't sit
tightly on the rim no amount of glue will hold it sufficiently.

You are mistaken. Tires are held tightly on the rim by inflation
pressure that expands the bias ply and causes the tire to constrict.
The values are listed in "the Bicycle Wheel" and of course you could
calculate them yourself. The tightness of mounting the tire is
ineffective once the tire is on the rim because it can be lifted off
easily when deflated after having been ridden awhile. This was
adequately tested by riders who put new tires on dried glue and later
were able to take the deflated tire off effortlessly.

Quoted message said:

OTOH, if the tire does sit tightly on the rim it doesn't matter if
it has very little glue. The one exception to this rule is in A)
very hot conditions B) long and steep descents, and/or C) heavy
riders. For those I'd recommend a very heat resistant glue or
clinchers.

I hope you throw salt over your shoulder and knock on wood when you do
this. There is no reason for this to be true or to have any basis in
fact. You might try to explain how this effect works when proposing
such incredible claims.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OTOH, if the tire does sit tightly on the rim it doesn't matter if
it has very little glue. The one exception to this rule is in A)
very hot conditions B) long and steep descents, and/or C) heavy
riders. For those I'd recommend a very heat resistant glue or
clinchers.

I hope you throw salt over your shoulder and knock on wood when you do
this. There is no reason for this to be true or to have any basis in
fact. You might try to explain how this effect works when proposing
such incredible claims.

I'm people can make up their own minds, based on the evidence,
without name calling Jobst. As I spelled out before, you only need
enough glue to "fill the gap" between tire and rim. Though it has
been many years since you used sew-ups I've had several occasions
in the past few to change a tire and still corner with confidence,
staying with the lead descenders down the backside of Morgan Territory
for example. The reused glue setup reasonable quickly and I made
sure that the tire was tight.

--
Roger Marquis
http://www.roble.net/marquis/