Gipiemme wheel opinions

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Mark Atanovich
I'm looking for a set of wheels and like the potential durability advantage of a triplet spoke
pattern on the rear. Rather than spend big $$ on Campagnolo, I was thinking of giving the Gipiemme's
that I've found on eBay a try:

cgi.ebay.comeBayISAPI.dllOpen ↗

Seems like a hybrid between the Campy and Bontrager. Any inputs on the components and build quality?
I'm a 190 pound rolleur.

Thx

had a pair of gipiemme technos, and they flex quite a bit. don't really inspire confidence when riding

Mark-<< I'm looking for a set of wheels and like the potential durability advantage of a triplet
spoke pattern on the rear. >><BR><BR> << Seems like a hybrid between the Campy and Bontrager. Any
inputs on the components and build quality? I'm a 190 pound rolleur. >><BR><BR>

Paired and 'triplet' spoking is more marketing than performance. There is no inherit advantage in
grouping spokes together on these pretty beefy rims. For the $(and less than Campagnolo wheels
also), find a wheelbuilder than design a good wheelset specifically for you and your needs.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message =
"]news:[email hidden]...
| Mark-<< I'm looking for a set of wheels and like the potential =
durability
| advantage of a triplet spoke pattern on the rear. >><BR><BR> << Seems like a hybrid between the
| Campy and Bontrager. Any inputs on =
the
| components and build quality? I'm a 190 pound rolleur. >><BR><BR>
|=20
| Paired and 'triplet' spoking is more marketing than performance. There =
is no
| inherit advantage in grouping spokes together on these pretty beefy =
rims. For
| the $(and less than Campagnolo wheels also), find a wheelbuilder than =
design a
| good wheelset specifically for you and your needs.

This is so SO true. I have a set of wheels, I had built locally, that = are very modest looking by
comparison to these 'Star Wars' wheels. It's = a set of Red Mavic MA40's laced to trusty 105 hubs. I
also have had = Heliums, Spinergy SPOX and currently have a set of Gipiemme Grecal = Parade on one
bike and Kysyiums on another (the MA40's are on my = beater). I just do not worry about the locally
built wheels. They stay = true, and they have taken some big hits without any trouble. As a = bonus,
I can overhaul the hubs myself.

Get a nice set of Ultegra hubs, some good, light wheels and have them = made up. You want them to
look cool? Go for the black spokes. Want to = match your bike? You can do that too. So, you get a
custom set of = wheels for half or less than some of the fancy schmancy wheels.

John (seen the light) Rees

The thing that people on this newsgroup continually overlook when recommending that someone get
wheels with standard hubs (dura-ace/record/ultegra) is that these hubs are not readily available in
drillings below 28 spokes. 28 spokes may be fine for some applications, but I for one prefer to use
race wheels with an aero rim and less spokes. If these hubs came in those drillings, I'd be happy to
use them to save a few bucks, they are good hubs.

BTW, I've had bad luck with Rolf wheels and the paired spoke design. There is too much unsupported
space between the spokes on the rim, and the stresses of a crash are just too much for the rim to
handle on its own, especially if one or more spokes break during the crash. I mention this because
it looks like these wheels employ a similar design.

Does anyone know what the supposed benefits of the paired spoke design are?

"John Rees" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
| Mark-<< I'm looking for a set of wheels and like the potential
durability
| advantage of a triplet spoke pattern on the rear. >><BR><BR> << Seems like a hybrid between the
| Campy and Bontrager. Any inputs on
the
| components and build quality? I'm a 190 pound rolleur. >><BR><BR>
|
| Paired and 'triplet' spoking is more marketing than performance. There
is no
| inherit advantage in grouping spokes together on these pretty beefy
rims. For
| the $(and less than Campagnolo wheels also), find a wheelbuilder than
design a
| good wheelset specifically for you and your needs.

This is so SO true. I have a set of wheels, I had built locally, that are very modest looking by
comparison to these 'Star Wars' wheels. It's a set of Red Mavic MA40's laced to trusty 105 hubs. I
also have had Heliums, Spinergy SPOX and currently have a set of Gipiemme Grecal Parade on one
bike and Kysyiums on another (the MA40's are on my beater). I just do not worry about the locally
built wheels. They stay true, and they have taken some big hits without any trouble. As a bonus, I
can overhaul the hubs myself.

Get a nice set of Ultegra hubs, some good, light wheels and have them made up. You want them to
look cool? Go for the black spokes. Want to match your bike? You can do that too. So, you get a
custom set of wheels for half or less than some of the fancy schmancy wheels.

John (seen the light) Rees

"Eric Lambi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message =
"]news:[email hidden]...
| The thing that people on this newsgroup continually overlook when recommending that someone get
| wheels with standard hubs (dura-ace/record/ultegra) is that these hubs are not readily available
| in drillings below 28 spokes. 28 spokes may be fine for some applications, but I for one prefer to
| use race wheels with an aero rim and less spokes. If these hubs came in those drillings, I'd be
| happy to use them to save a few bucks, they are good hubs.
|=20
| BTW, I've had bad luck with Rolf wheels and the paired spoke design.=20 There is too much
| unsupported space between the spokes on the rim, and the stresses of a crash are just too much for
| the rim to handle on its own, especially if one or more spokes break during the crash. I mention
| this because it looks like these wheels employ a similar design.
|=20
| Does anyone know what the supposed benefits of the paired spoke design are?

Faster (making it also cheaper) to manufacture? I can see the bean = counters at Trek, begging the
engineers to design a two spoke wheel:

Bean: "It would take 8 times less work to lace with 8 times fewer = spokes!. We could save tonnes of
money and get more wheels out of the = same factory!"

Boffin: "A two spoke wheel? The spokes would have to be massive! The = wheel would weigh 2 or 3
kilos, and we'd have to get a proprietary spoke = design"

Marketing Shark: "Great! We would go on about how the fewer the spokes = that FASTER the wheel would
go. We could also make it look really cool, = give it the look of a Cusinart blade or something. We
could even have a = special, curved spoke 'yin yang' style as well, one white spoke and one = black
spoke! Brilliant. When can the wheel be ready?"

John Rees' may have said:

Marketing Shark: "Great! We would go on about how the fewer the spokes that FASTER the wheel would
go. We could also make it look really cool, give it the look of a Cusinart blade or something. We
could even have a special, curved spoke 'yin yang' style as well, one white spoke and one black
spoke! Brilliant. When can the wheel be ready?"

Hmmm. I think it was done, in a cast wheel, quite a while back. Not at 700 diameter, though.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Paired and 'triplet' spoking is more marketing than performance. There is no inherit advantage in
grouping spokes together on these pretty beefy rims.

I'm no boutique wheel fan
(google.comgroupsOpen ↗).
Triplet spoking on the rear, though, is a good idea that originated in the engineering dept before
being exploited by the marketers. I have a set of 36H Mavic 519's on my commuter bike and despite
130kg of tension on the drive side, I ended up having to locktite the non drive spokes because they
kept loosening (due to the combination of heavy rider, 20# of clothes & supplies in the panniers and
agressive riding style). Triplet spoking would have made this a non-issue. I bet 10 years from now
all "conventional" rear wheels will be designed this way and today's wheels will be thought of as
relics that you will only find gathering dust in the garage (or perhaps on Jobst's bikes as you try
to suck his wheel). ;-)

Quoted message said:

For the $(and less than Campagnolo wheels also), find a wheelbuilder than design a good wheelset
specifically for you and your needs.

You're telling me that I can get a set of comparable hand built wheels built for $240 (Centaur hubs,
Velocity deep V's, bladed spokes)? I didn't think so.

This doesn't surprise me, John. I put Heliums (insanely low spoke count for the rim type), Kysyiums
(Alminum spokes) pretty much everything Splintergy has done (where do I start?) in my moronic wheel
design hall of shame. Now, how are the Grecals holding up?

Quoted message said:

"John Rees" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

This is so SO true. I have a set of wheels, I had built locally, that are very modest looking by
comparison to these 'Star Wars' wheels. It's a set of Red Mavic MA40's laced to trusty 105 hubs.
I also have had Heliums, Spinergy SPOX and currently have a set of Gipiemme Grecal Parade on one
bike and Kysyiums on another (the MA40's are on my beater). I just do not worry about the
locally built wheels. They stay true, and they have taken some big hits without any trouble. As
a bonus, I can overhaul the hubs myself.

Get a nice set of Ultegra hubs, some good, light wheels and have them made up. You want them to
look cool? Go for the black spokes. Want to match your bike? You can do that too. So, you get a
custom set of wheels for half or less than some of the fancy schmancy wheels.

John (seen the light) Rees

[email hidden] (Eric Lambi) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Does anyone know what the supposed benefits of the paired spoke design are?

For low spoke count wheels:
1. It increases lateral trueness.
2. It makes the wheel more durable.

How much I don't know. I wouldn't necessarily pay more for these benefits but I wouldn't pay less
either. Triplet spoking on the rear (ala Campy Eurus/Zonda/Scirocco and the Gipiemme's I originally
asked bout) has definite advantages.

How heavy are you?

"Spoke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Atanovich said:

I'm looking for a set of wheels and like the potential durability advantage of a triplet spoke
pattern on the rear. Rather than spend

big

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

$$ on Campagnolo, I was thinking of giving the Gipiemme's that I've found on eBay a try:

cgi.ebay.comeBayISAPI.dllOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

53885cgi.ebay.comeBayISAPI.dllOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3629553885 Seems like a hybrid between the Campy and Bontrager. Any inputs on the components
and build quality? I'm a 190 pound rolleur. Thx

had a pair of gipiemme technos, and they flex quite a bit. don't really inspire confidence
when riding

--

Quoted message said:

--------------------------<

Posted via cyclingforums.com cyclingforums.comcyclingforums.comOpen ↗

(Eric Lambi) said:

The thing that people on this newsgroup continually overlook when recommending that someone get
wheels with standard hubs (dura-ace/record/ultegra) is that these hubs are not readily available
in drillings below 28 spokes. 28 spokes may be fine for some applications, but I for one prefer to
use race wheels with an aero rim and less spokes. If these hubs came in those drillings, I'd be
happy to use them to save a few bucks, they are good hubs.

Two points:

1) Low spoke count wheels are retarded design. Why use a wheel with a heavy rim and 16 fat spokes
under such ridiculous tension that they can't be trued without special equipment, when you could
use a normal spoke count with thinner spokes to yield a stronger wheel that weighs less? If you
think you go faster with fewer spokes in each wheel, you're fooling yourself.

2) 36 x every other hole = 18 32 x every other hole = 16 36 x lace 2, skip 1 = 24

Chalo Colina

Quoted message said:

Two points:

1) Low spoke count wheels are retarded design. Why use a wheel with a heavy rim and 16 fat spokes
under such ridiculous tension that they can't be trued without special equipment, when you
could use a normal spoke count with thinner spokes to yield a stronger wheel that weighs less?
If you think you go faster with fewer spokes in each wheel, you're fooling yourself.

a) Incremental weight of wheels (~100-200g) is not important at all.
b) Aerodynamics is important. And 16 "fat" spokes will be much more aero than 32 "thinner" spokes.

Besides, I was not aware that you had to have a heavy rim to be able to build a strong wheel with 16
spokes. I think you just have to have a well-engineered rim . . . not that those are all that easy
to find (Reynolds comes to mind).

Quoted message said:

2) 36 x every other hole = 18 32 x every other hole = 16 36 x lace 2, skip 1 = 24

Good idea. I might consider this with my next set of wheels.

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Mark-<< Triplet spoking on the rear, though, is a good idea that originated in the engineering
dept before being exploited by the marketers. I have a set of 36H Mavic 519's on my commuter bike
and despite 130kg of tension on the drive side, I ended up having to locktite the non drive spokes
because they kept loosening (due to the combination of heavy rider, 20# of clothes & supplies in
the panniers and agressive riding style). Triplet spoking would have made this a non-issue.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Don't agree that the rpoblems you sqaw were because of the spoke pattern. Crows foot(triplet)
lacing has been around for over 30 years, it solves nothin'...

When I refer to "triplet pattern", it's not the lacing (which I agree doesn't matter) but rather to
the ratio of drive VS. non-drive spokes. My wheel had a problem because of the low tension on the
non-drive side compared to the lateral/vertical loads I was putting on the wheel. If the wheels had
been of a triplet design (2 drive for every non-drive spoke), the tension on both sides would be
equal. This is the same issue that offset rims try to address but only not as effectively.

Quoted message said:

mark<< I bet 10 years from now all "conventional" rear wheels will be designed this way and
today's wheels will be thought of as relics that you will only find gathering dust in the garage

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

I'll take that bet-a case of yer favorite brew that all wheels will NOT be paired or triplet in 10
years. ya know, Rolf said that same thing and that design is all but gone.

My bet is that rear wheels will have twice the number of drive VS non-drive spokes. Ya still on?

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Mark-<< Triplet spoking on the rear, though, is a good idea that originated in the engineering
dept before being exploited by the marketers. I have a set of 36H Mavic 519's on my commuter bike
and despite 130kg of tension on the drive side, I ended up having to locktite the non drive spokes
because they kept loosening (due to the combination of heavy rider, 20# of clothes & supplies in
the panniers and agressive riding style). Triplet spoking would have made this a non-issue.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Don't agree that the rpoblems you sqaw were because of the spoke pattern. Crows foot(triplet)
lacing has been around for over 30 years, it solves nothin'...

When I refer to "triplet pattern", it's not the lacing (which I agree doesn't matter) but rather to
the ratio of drive VS. non-drive spokes. My wheel had a problem because of the low tension on the
non-drive side compared to the lateral/vertical loads I was putting on the wheel. If the wheel had
been of a triplet design (2 drive for every non-drive spoke), the tension on both sides would be
equal. This is the same issue that offset rims try to address but only not as effectively.

Quoted message said:

mark<< I bet 10 years from now all "conventional" rear wheels will be designed this way and
today's wheels will be thought of as relics that you will only find gathering dust in the garage

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

I'll take that bet-a case of yer favorite brew that all wheels will NOT be paired or triplet in 10
years. ya know, Rolf said that same thing and that design is all but gone.

My bet is that rear wheels will have twice the number of drive VS non-drive spokes. Ya still on?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Mark Atanovich
I'm looking for a set of wheels and like the potential durability advantage of a triplet spoke
pattern on the rear. Rather than spend big $$ on Campagnolo, I was thinking of giving the Gipiemme's
that I've found on eBay a try:

cgi.ebay.comeBayISAPI.dllOpen ↗

Seems like a hybrid between the Campy and Bontrager. Any inputs on the components and build quality?
I'm a 190 pound rolleur.

Thx

I have the Campagnolo Sciroccos and I think they are great and they were 460cdn$ for both. The Hubs are average but the overall quality is great. Only 1000ms on them so far but no issues. They look cool too.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<< If the wheels had been of a triplet design (2 drive for every non-drive spoke), the tension on
both sides would be equal. This is the same issue that offset rims try to address but only not as
effectively. >><BR><BR>

I don't think that the tesnion is equal for a non offset rim and 1/2 the

number

Quoted message said:

of spokes than the right, regardless of lacing.

Why don't you think so? It's a pretty simple analysis: Campy 9/10 speed RH (36.8mm non-drive flange
offset, 16.8 drive flange offset, 45mm flange spoke hole diameter) paired to a generic Mavic rim
(600mm ERD) 16 drive spokes 8 non-drive spokes Drive side spoke tension = 100 kg Analysis:

Angle from vertical of non drive spoke: 7.64 degrees Angle from vertical of drive spoke:
3.47 degrees

Total lateral componentof drive spoke tension = 16*sin(3.47)*100 = 97 kg

Since the rim is static, this also equals the total lateral force from the non-drive spokes. Solving
for each non-drive spoke tension (T):

T = 145/(sin(7.64)*12) = 91 kg (VS 100 kg for the drive side).

If you're a die hard "show me" kinda guy, try lacing a 24H rim to a 32H hole hub to confirm the
numbers above. If it's a fairly deep section rim (like one of your CXP30's) with bladed spokes, I'm
confident you'll find this to be a pretty bulletproof wheel, far more durable than the 36H version
and more aero to boot. It's coming, Peter, believe me. Your customers will think you're some type of
wheel building God (assuming they don't already).

Quoted message said:

mark<< My bet is that rear wheels will have twice the number of drive VS non-drive spokes. Ya
still on? >><BR><BR>

You bet. This 'concept' has come and gone and come back many times in the

100

Quoted message said:

years or so of bicycles. many have tried to 'reinvent' the wheel and have

found

Quoted message said:

it to be not as effective as a well built wheel using standard practices

and

Quoted message said:

components and builder skill.

If you can show me an example of this I'd like to know. I've been a cycling enthusiast for nearly 25
years and until recently have never before seen a rear hub offered for asymmetric spoke patterns
(i..e different # of drive VS non-drive spokes). Good ideas tend to hang around and this is going to
be one of them.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Think I'll stick to standard wheels, thanks. There is more to wheel

strength

Quoted message said:

than even tension. Using your idea on a 400 gram rim would not be pretty.

First you insist there is no benefit, then you ask why it's more durable, now you claim there is
more to it than even tension (the point was durability, not strength, BTW). So much for logic.

Quoted message said:

Mark<< I've been a cycling enthusiast for nearly 25 years and until recently have never before
seen a rear hub offered for asymmetric spoke patterns (i..e different # of drive

VS

Quoted message said:

non-drive spokes). Good ideas tend to hang around and this is going to be one of them. >><BR><BR>

The guy at 'Speed Dream' wheels has been doing this for a while(4-5 years)...nothin new. A 24
spoke wheel, 16 right, 8 left, a standard hub

with

Quoted message said:

unused holes

I assume then he's had some measure of success with this. Not surprising.