Giro Helmet Question

J Jones said:

Like louisurfer, I too crashed this weekend - although I have only
myself to blame. I was on a moderate descent with a sharp left turn
at the bottom. I came in to the turn on a bad line (and too fast)
and the second I touched my back brake to scrub off some speed, the
back wheel was out from under me and I was down hard with my left
side taking quite a bit of road rash. As I took inventory of my body
parts afterwards, I didn't even think that my head took a hit, but as
the evening progressed my head was definitely hurting. I inspected
my helmet - 2004 Giro Pneumo - and found a crack in the grey
styrofoam at the very front and center of the helmet. The crack
appears to go clear through the stryo, but the outer plastic shell is
fine and provides enough adhesive and stability to make the crack
barely 'movable' - i.e., if you grab both sides of the helmet and try
to force the crack apart, it barely budges - and I do mean barely.
The last crash I had was several years ago on a mountain bike and my
helmet was essentially destroyed - no question it needed replaced. But,
for this one, I'm just not sure. My gut (and wife) tells me to
replace it, but I'm not convinced that the helmet is really 'junk'.

Should I replace the helmet immediately? Any advice/information is
appreciated. Thanks!
Jeff

*Replace the helmet*, it did its job.

J Jones said:

Like louisurfer, I too crashed this weekend - although I have only myself to
blame. I was on a moderate descent with a sharp left turn at the bottom. I
came in to the turn on a bad line (and too fast) and the second I touched my
back brake to scrub off some speed, the back wheel was out from under me and
I was down hard with my left side taking quite a bit of road rash. As I
took inventory of my body parts afterwards, I didn't even think that my head
took a hit, but as the evening progressed my head was definitely hurting. I
inspected my helmet - 2004 Giro Pneumo - and found a crack in the grey
styrofoam at the very front and center of the helmet. The crack appears to
go clear through the stryo, but the outer plastic shell is fine and provides
enough adhesive and stability to make the crack barely 'movable' - i.e., if
you grab both sides of the helmet and try to force the crack apart, it
barely budges - and I do mean barely.

The last crash I had was several years ago on a mountain bike and my helmet
was essentially destroyed - no question it needed replaced. But, for this
one, I'm just not sure. My gut (and wife) tells me to replace it, but I'm
not convinced that the helmet is really 'junk'.

Should I replace the helmet immediately? Any advice/information is
appreciated. Thanks!
Jeff

"They're all cracked"

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/177c528491752056/616458179ed5b296?q=giro+crack+pneumo&rnum=1#616458179ed5b296

http://tinyurl.com/d7lww

"J Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Like louisurfer, I too crashed this weekend - although I have only myself
to blame. I was on a moderate descent with a sharp left turn at the
bottom. I came in to the turn on a bad line (and too fast) and the second
I touched my back brake to scrub off some speed, the back wheel was out
from under me and I was down hard with my left side taking quite a bit of
road rash. As I took inventory of my body parts afterwards, I didn't even
think that my head took a hit, but as the evening progressed my head was
definitely hurting. I inspected my helmet - 2004 Giro Pneumo - and found
a crack in the grey styrofoam at the very front and center of the helmet.
The crack appears to go clear through the stryo, but the outer plastic
shell is fine and provides enough adhesive and stability to make the crack
barely 'movable' - i.e., if you grab both sides of the helmet and try to
force the crack apart, it barely budges - and I do mean barely.

The last crash I had was several years ago on a mountain bike and my
helmet was essentially destroyed - no question it needed replaced. But,
for this one, I'm just not sure. My gut (and wife) tells me to replace
it, but I'm not convinced that the helmet is really 'junk'.

Should I replace the helmet immediately? Any advice/information is
appreciated. Thanks!
Jeff

Yup. One time use item. Been through a few myself. It's worth the $30.00
for a new one in my opinion. That is unless you want to go spend $140.00 on
some hypermarketed item that does essentially the same thing. It that case,
I would say that it's not worth it and you should just settle for the
cheaper one.

Tom

J Jones said:

Should I replace the helmet immediately? Any advice/information is
appreciated. Thanks!

Short answer: All the magic has leaked out. ;-)

Longer answer: The "replace immediately" advice is standard, of
course. But logically, would you say the protection offered by the
helmet is now zero? Or would it be more logical to say it's now 90% of
what it was? Perhaps 95%? I can't say, not seeing the helmet, but you
can make your own estimate.

Now consider: It really is true that cheaper, heavier helmets offer
more protection. Manufacturers won't admit this, and neither will
helmet promotion organizations, but it's true. I can point you to some
non-numerical ratings of helmet impact protection in Consumer Reports,
if you like. (They won't publish the numbers. That would show folks
how flimsy these things really are.)

So, to pull some numbers out of the air: What if a cheap helmet was
originally capable of absorbing (say) 40 Joules of energy, and if a
super-light, well-ventilated, stylish & expensive helmet could absorb
(say) 30 Joules of energy, while still barely passing the certification
standards?

If a slight compression or crack reduced the cheap helmet's capacity
by five Joules, it would still be more protective than the expensive
helmet.

But of course, the pious advice you'd get from everyone would be the
same: "Replace it immediately!" In other words: "The magic has
leaked out!"

- Frank Krygowski

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

J Jones said:

Should I replace the helmet immediately? Any advice/information is
appreciated. Thanks!

Short answer: All the magic has leaked out. ;-)

Longer answer: The "replace immediately" advice is standard, of
course. But logically, would you say the protection offered by the
helmet is now zero? Or would it be more logical to say it's now 90% of
what it was? Perhaps 95%? I can't say, not seeing the helmet, but you
can make your own estimate.

Now consider: It really is true that cheaper, heavier helmets offer
more protection. Manufacturers won't admit this, and neither will
helmet promotion organizations, but it's true. I can point you to some
non-numerical ratings of helmet impact protection in Consumer Reports,
if you like. (They won't publish the numbers. That would show folks
how flimsy these things really are.)

So, to pull some numbers out of the air: What if a cheap helmet was
originally capable of absorbing (say) 40 Joules of energy, and if a
super-light, well-ventilated, stylish & expensive helmet could absorb
(say) 30 Joules of energy, while still barely passing the certification
standards?

If a slight compression or crack reduced the cheap helmet's capacity
by five Joules, it would still be more protective than the expensive
helmet.

But of course, the pious advice you'd get from everyone would be the
same: "Replace it immediately!" In other words: "The magic has
leaked out!"

- Frank Krygowski

I'm no engineer, but I gotta figure the energy absorbtion model you suggest
might not capture all the variables. I thinking the lack of structural
integrity resulting from the crack reduces the protective ability of the
helmet. In this case I suspect two halves don't make a whole. I'm sure
there is a way to compute the residual protective capacity of a damaged
helmet if you really wanted to do so. I figure it's probably easier just to
go online or the LBS and get a new one on sale. In light of the fact that
the OP was wearing a helmet during the crash and is asking about
replacements, I'm sure he is one of us addle-headed safety nuts who continue
to believe helmets provide protection. I say let the man spend the $30.00
for his own piece of mind.

Isn't there a bike path or something out there that needs chastizing? We
know there's no magic in those!

Tom

"J Jones" wrote: (clip) Should I replace the helmet immediately? Any
advice/information is appreciated. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
No, just throw it away, and ride without a helmet. They don't do any good.
<BG>

Dave Thompson said:

J Jones wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Should I replace the helmet immediately? Any advice/information is
appreciated. Thanks!
Jeff

*Replace the helmet*, it did its job.

Good idea. I didn't replace the helmet in these photos (even though
the helmet is actually more damaged than the photos indicate):

http://www.habcycles.com/bikecrash.html

I kept it as a momento, and it's soon going to come in handy in the
arbitration hearing as an indicator of just how violent the impact
actually was.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Quoted message said:

"They're all cracked"

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/177c528491752056/616458179ed5b296?q=giro+crack+pneumo&rnum=1#616458179ed5b296

http://tinyurl.com/d7lww

Yup, I remember that thread. J Jone, if the helmet really took a hit, you
would see evidence of new scratches on the shell. Inspect the shell for
scratches.

tcmedara said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

But of course, the pious advice you'd get from everyone would be the
same: "Replace it immediately!" In other words: "The magic has
leaked out!"

I'm no engineer, but I gotta figure the energy absorbtion model you suggest
might not capture all the variables. I thinking the lack of structural
integrity resulting from the crack reduces the protective ability of the
helmet. In this case I suspect two halves don't make a whole.

Practically speaking, there is no energy absorption model that will
capture _all_ the variables. This certainly includes the models used
to certify helmets. Nonetheless, the ideas I explained are valid: that
a damaged but "stronger" helmet may be more protective than an
undamaged expensive helmet.

Quoted message said:

I'm sure
there is a way to compute the residual protective capacity of a damaged
helmet if you really wanted to do so.

Personally, I really doubt it.

Quoted message said:

I figure it's probably easier just to
go online or the LBS and get a new one on sale.

Oh, doubtlessly! Seriously, to accurately calculate such a thing would
be impossible. In fact, to accurately _define_ such a thing is
practically impossible. (We recently were pointed to an article about
the controversy in motorcycle helmet design - where the standard
considered the "strongest" may actually be causing more injuries.)

Quoted message said:

Isn't there a bike path or something out there that needs chastizing?

:-) There are plenty. I was at a meeting tonight where that was being
done.

But I thought the purpose of this forum was the exchange of ideas. Was
I wrong?

- Frank Krygowski

In article <10Vbf.462$Mi5.259@dukeread07>,

tcmedara said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

J Jones said:

Should I replace the helmet immediately? Any advice/information is
appreciated. Thanks!

Short answer: All the magic has leaked out. ;-)

Longer answer: The "replace immediately" advice is standard, of
course. But logically, would you say the protection offered by the
helmet is now zero? Or would it be more logical to say it's now 90% of
what it was? Perhaps 95%? I can't say, not seeing the helmet, but you
can make your own estimate.

Now consider: It really is true that cheaper, heavier helmets offer
more protection. Manufacturers won't admit this, and neither will
helmet promotion organizations, but it's true. I can point you to some
non-numerical ratings of helmet impact protection in Consumer Reports,
if you like. (They won't publish the numbers. That would show folks
how flimsy these things really are.)

So, to pull some numbers out of the air: What if a cheap helmet was
originally capable of absorbing (say) 40 Joules of energy, and if a
super-light, well-ventilated, stylish & expensive helmet could absorb
(say) 30 Joules of energy, while still barely passing the certification
standards?

If a slight compression or crack reduced the cheap helmet's capacity
by five Joules, it would still be more protective than the expensive
helmet.

But of course, the pious advice you'd get from everyone would be the
same: "Replace it immediately!" In other words: "The magic has
leaked out!"

- Frank Krygowski

I'm no engineer,

but you play one on the internet?

--
Michael Press
The rest of the world.

J Jones said:

Like louisurfer, I too crashed this weekend - although I have only myself to
blame. I was on a moderate descent with a sharp left turn at the bottom. I
came in to the turn on a bad line (and too fast) and the second I touched my
back brake to scrub off some speed, the back wheel was out from under me and
I was down hard with my left side taking quite a bit of road rash. As I
took inventory of my body parts afterwards, I didn't even think that my head
took a hit, but as the evening progressed my head was definitely hurting. I
inspected my helmet - 2004 Giro Pneumo - and found a crack in the grey
styrofoam at the very front and center of the helmet. The crack appears to
go clear through the stryo, but the outer plastic shell is fine and provides
enough adhesive and stability to make the crack barely 'movable' - i.e., if
you grab both sides of the helmet and try to force the crack apart, it
barely budges - and I do mean barely.

The last crash I had was several years ago on a mountain bike and my helmet
was essentially destroyed - no question it needed replaced. But, for this
one, I'm just not sure. My gut (and wife) tells me to replace it, but I'm
not convinced that the helmet is really 'junk'.

Should I replace the helmet immediately? Any advice/information is
appreciated. Thanks!
Jeff

Replace it as soon as you can and save the old one as a spare. You
never know when it will come in handy for a single use.

J Jones said:

Should I replace the helmet immediately? Any advice/information is
appreciated. Thanks!

On one side you have the replacement cost of a Giro Pneumo,
which, doing a quick check, is around $100 US (assuming you
decide to replace it with another Pneumo).

On the other side, you have your head.

Seems like an easy decision to me.

If not, consider....

1. You cared enough about your own protection to shell out the
$100 for the helmet in the first place. But now you assume
the risk for a subset of crashes for which the helmet would
not protect you due to its damage?

2. Let's assume the worst happens -- you crash again with this
helmet, and sustain a head injury. You try to file an
insurance or legal claim, which is denied or contested because
you were using a helmet you knew was defective. Do you really
want to go through that? (Note that the fact you knew about
the damage and considered the need to replace the helmet is
now, due to your posting about it on Usenet, public record.)

On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 21:35:55 -0600, "tcmedara" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I'm no engineer, but I gotta figure the energy absorbtion model you suggest
might not capture all the variables. I thinking the lack of structural
integrity resulting from the crack reduces the protective ability of the
helmet. In this case I suspect two halves don't make a whole.

If the thing is only cracked in the styrofoam, I very much doubt there is
much lack of structural integrity. Styrofoam doesn't have any structural
integrity in the first place -- it's only there to crush, while absorbing
impact. Incidentally, that means that it's entirely possible that the
styrofoam is crushed a bit, which you might not be able to spot but which
*would* impact (no pun intended) energy absorbency significantly. The
crack.. not so much.

Jasper

Jasper Janssen said:

Incidentally, that means that it's entirely possible that the
styrofoam is crushed a bit, which you might not be able to spot but which
*would* impact (no pun intended) energy absorbency significantly.

Rather, *might* impact the energy absorbency significantly. And if it
crushed only "a bit," I'd say the odds on that "might" are rather low.

Contrary to carefully constructed myth, even styrofoam that has been
_totally_ crushed does not have zero energy absorption ability. It has
greatly reduced energy absorption ability, of course, but not zero.

But if the styrofoam is barely crushed, obviously its absorbency will
be barely affected. The idea that any tiny damage destroys all
potential benefit is just one more instance where helmet promotion
flies in the face of logic.

- Frank Krygowski

"J Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Like louisurfer, I too crashed this weekend - although I have only myself
to blame. I was on a moderate descent with a sharp left turn at the
bottom. I came in to the turn on a bad line (and too fast) and the second
I touched my back brake to scrub off some speed, the back wheel was out
from under me and I was down hard with my left side taking quite a bit of
road rash. As I took inventory of my body parts afterwards, I didn't even
think that my head took a hit, but as the evening progressed my head was
definitely hurting. I inspected my helmet - 2004 Giro Pneumo - and found
a crack in the grey styrofoam at the very front and center of the helmet.
The crack appears to go clear through the stryo, but the outer plastic
shell is fine and provides enough adhesive and stability to make the crack
barely 'movable' - i.e., if you grab both sides of the helmet and try to
force the crack apart, it barely budges - and I do mean barely.

The last crash I had was several years ago on a mountain bike and my
helmet was essentially destroyed - no question it needed replaced. But,
for this one, I'm just not sure. My gut (and wife) tells me to replace
it, but I'm not convinced that the helmet is really 'junk'.

Should I replace the helmet immediately? Any advice/information is
appreciated. Thanks!
Jeff

Thanks to all for your feedback on my original post - I went ahead an
purchased a new helmet. It really boiled down to "why risk it" just to
"save money".
Jeff

actually the cheaper ones work better

the expensive ones just waste money on complicated weight saving shapes
that
remove protective material while still barely passing the safety
tests.

wle

"Andrew Lee" <whatsupandrewathotmaildotcom> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"They're all cracked"

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/177c528491752056/616458179ed5b296?q=giro+crack+pneumo&rnum=1#616458179ed5b296

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://tinyurl.com/d7lww

Yup, I remember that thread. J Jone, if the helmet really took a hit, you
would see evidence of new scratches on the shell. Inspect the shell for
scratches.

Both of my Pneumos are cracked in the same place too - and I've never
crashed. It's definatly a weak spot in the helmet!